Mixed Feelings & Questions After Hood Test

Wills.WindowsAndWheels

Wills.WindowsAndWheels

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Hey everyone.
Well last night I spent about 4 or 5 hours just experimenting on one taped off spot on the hood of the Taurus, trying to see if it was possible to get rid of all these RIDS and scratches. I'm a little mixed with my feelings after I was done.

First, heres what I did:

I used my LC CCS 4" orange and white pad with Megs 105 with my PC. (please note that a couple weeks back I did the whole hood with 105 and then 205 but wasnt happy with the results so I was trying it again :) ). This time i had my new halogen light so I could see my results much better.

Here is the spot i taped off and started with

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/877/Hood_Before_2_1.JPG
Hood_Before_2_1.JPG



I then did about 4 applications of 105, using a good amount of pressure and taking nice slow passes. I also did 'cleaning on the fly' which I didnt know the proper technique last time i worked on the hood...it sure helped:).

Here are the results after 4 applications of 105.

After_4_Applications1.JPG



Now before I did the compounding I felt to see if my fingernail was catching any of these marks...and it DIDN'T...but after the compounding i felt it again and noticed 2 things...

First, after doing the passes the surface was VERY hot (was i using too much pressure?)

Second, when using my fingertip (not the nail) and pressing firmly on the area i did and running it across that area....i could FEEL all the bumps (there were a lot!), scratches etc.

At first I was worried maybe I had messed up with using the PC since i couldnt actually FEEL them before I started working...and it looked like the spot I had been working on had the MOST 'bumps' out of all the hood! But then looking VERY closely at the rest of the hood, i noticed that I could see the same 'texture' all across the hood.

So I'm assuing that, after compounding one area as much as I did, I was able to remove some of the surface defects, but because I removed those, now the 'bumps' show up even more and are much easier to feel. Any thoughts anyone??




After I did that picture I changed over to my Megs SoftBuff Burgundy Pad 6.5".
I had never used this pad before (just got it a week or 2 ago) so I wanted to give it a try.

My experience with this pad...I love it:dblthumb2:. I could put pressure on the pad like i was with the 4" L.C ones...but the pad didnt 'compress' like the little guys did.

Also the surface didn't get crazy hot, or really that hot at all. I really liked the 'flat' pad better than the CCS as well. It was much easier to clean :).

I did an ISP wipe down and then did about another 3-4 passes with 105 on the same area. Here are the results...

After_2_1.JPG



Pardon the dust :).

It seemed to help a little more...but those 'bumps' and scratches wernt going anywhere.

Heres a picture of the spot after the tape was removed showing the spot compaired to the rest of the hood:


Tape_Off1.JPG




The good news....its the best looking spot on the hood!
The bad news....its still THAT hood lol.

So as for my mixed feeling...I'm glad I can see improvements but its not even close to what MY expectations were. Looking at the one taped off spot alone...its kinda 'eh not bad'....but looking at it compaired to the rest of the hood is where I can notice quite a big difference...so not really sure how to feel about it.

As far as questions, now that I'm actually feeling the bumps/scratches (I do have to push VERY hard to feel them), Is it possible to further correct this spot...or should i repeat what I did with that spot for the rest of the hood and accept that it is impossible to make it better.

If it IS possible to get this paint to the perfect look that I want it to be, please tell me and I'd gladly do whatever is necessary and put as much work as is neccessary into it.

If further compounding is just going to do nothing but wear down my clear (I'm surprised theres any left on that spot), then what suggestions do you guys have for me as far as what to do next?


Sorry for the long post...but I'm trying to learn :). Any and all suggestions/comments/critisizm is welcome.

Thanks

Wills
 
Check out OC answer to your problem:


Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lynchburg, VA.
Posts: 636 Re: Problem removing RIDS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even better, switch to Surbuf pads and get rid of almost every RID with 1-2 passes and 105.

See this thread for more info on using the Surbuf pads properly: O.C.Detailing (Lynchburg, VA.) - Black 2008 Mercedes Benz S550

Good luck.
 
Rsurfer said:
Check out OC answer to your problem:


Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lynchburg, VA.
Posts: 636 Re: Problem removing RIDS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even better, switch to Surbuf pads and get rid of almost every RID with 1-2 passes and 105.

See this thread for more info on using the Surbuf pads properly: O.C.Detailing (Lynchburg, VA.) - Black 2008 Mercedes Benz S550
Good luck.
Click to expand...

I agree, surbuf or foamed wool pads should make easier work of those. If these solutions don't work, you're going to need to look into wet sanding:
Foamed Wool 4 inch Buffing & Polishing Pad, wool polishing pad, foam wool pad, foam polishing pad, buffing pad, purple wool pad, lake country

Surbuf R Series 4 Inch Buffing Pads 2 Pack, surbuf pads, polishing pads, microfingers pads
 
Heya Wills, the spot does look better, but a couple of things you should realize about not only the car and condition of your paint, but the pad/product combination you're using.

1. The paint on that car is what I classify as "Severely Damaged". This means there are heavy swirls and deep, dense random isolated deep scratches (RIDS).

2. The pad/product/machine combination that you're using to remove those defects is no where NEAR strong enough to completely fix that kind of damage in a reasonable amount of time. You will see a big difference if you hit the same spot enough times, but the time investment makes it not really worth it.

3. This is a toughy as I know of a couple of folks getting amazing results with the PC7424 and XP model, but your machine is also part of your limitation. In comparison to the Griot's and Flex, the PC7424XP and Meguiar's G110V2 are anemic in power and correction ability to say the least. For the same money as the PC7424, you could get a Griot's and have a TON more power to remove severe defects. I do believe you can get the correction you want just by switching your pads to a more aggressive cut though, without switching machines.

As Surfer said, you can refer to my post here: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...nchburg-va-black-2008-mercedes-benz-s550.html

The Surbuf pads, in my experience, offer a HUGE amount of correction ability over any foam pad on the market at the moment, even the Hydro-tech and Lake Country Yellow CCS and Flat pads. I've used them all, so this is first-hand experience. You'll get a few more cars done with foam pads in comparison to the Surbuf pads, but the time you'll save correcting paint with Surbuf makes them totally worth the cost, though you get 2 Surbuff pads for the price of one foam pad.

Good luck with the rest of your car though. :D
 
Hey guys,

Thanks for the replies and advice. I had someone else suggest Surbuff and being excellent pads and after all of you saying basically the same thing, I might have to give them a go :).

I'll check out the link you posted Rsurfer...I'm always up for a good read that will help me with my current project.

O.C....YES this is SEVERELYYYYY damanged paint lol. You gotta realize this is first off a 96...second of all was bought used...3rd it only had the partial cover of a carport for the first couple years my mom had it, so the Az sun beat it down pretty good, 4th (oh yes it keeps going lol) cats seemed to just LOVE the hook of that car, 5th....I didnt get into detailing at all untill about 2 years after she got it. Soooo being from the 'old school' it had 2 years of 'put some dishsoap in a bucket and wash it with any old towels/cloths available an washing it on a REALLY hot day right in the sun is the best!" lol

So good news is ive come a long way since then, bad news is that doesnt undo the years of damage that this poor thing took, but its still good practice!


The PC does do very good work but i have been thinking about getting another upgraded buffer. I was at first considering a rotary, but the flex seems very popular...just so expensive! Do you think at this point the flex would be a good investment, or just go for a rotary and practice at home till I get a knack for it?
 
Just get a rotary... you can use the PC to finish out after compounding with the rotary until you get better finishing with the rotary
 
It's always going to be hard to tell 100% from a picture but from what I'm seeing it looks like some of those scratches are too deep to safely remove.

Even if you can remove them without going through the clear coat, removing the 100% may leave too little clear paint left to sufficiently protect the basecoat.

That's why for daily drivers I always recommend removing the shallow stuff and learning to live with the RIDS.

I think I mention that in this article,

RIDS - The Definition of RIDS and the story behind the term...


:)
 
Da Fats said:
Just get a rotary... you can use the PC to finish out after compounding with the rotary until you get better finishing with the rotary
Click to expand...

The gap in correction power between rotarys and modern DAs is pretty much gone at this point. At least in my own personal experience. I'm no expert with a rotary, and I know I've got things to learn, but I haven't seen anything posted that's been done with a rotary that I can't do as well or better with my Griot's.

Granted, to get that kind of correction, you'd have to use either the Griot's or the Flex. None of the other DAs have the capabilities to get that level of correction in a reasonable amount of time.
 
Wills.WindowsAndWheels said:
Hey guys,

Thanks for the replies and advice. I had someone else suggest Surbuff and being excellent pads and after all of you saying basically the same thing, I might have to give them a go :).

I'll check out the link you posted Rsurfer...I'm always up for a good read that will help me with my current project.

O.C....YES this is SEVERELYYYYY damanged paint lol. You gotta realize this is first off a 96...second of all was bought used...3rd it only had the partial cover of a carport for the first couple years my mom had it, so the Az sun beat it down pretty good, 4th (oh yes it keeps going lol) cats seemed to just LOVE the hook of that car, 5th....I didnt get into detailing at all untill about 2 years after she got it. Soooo being from the 'old school' it had 2 years of 'put some dishsoap in a bucket and wash it with any old towels/cloths available an washing it on a REALLY hot day right in the sun is the best!" lol

So good news is ive come a long way since then, bad news is that doesnt undo the years of damage that this poor thing took, but its still good practice!


The PC does do very good work but i have been thinking about getting another upgraded buffer. I was at first considering a rotary, but the flex seems very popular...just so expensive! Do you think at this point the flex would be a good investment, or just go for a rotary and practice at home till I get a knack for it?
Click to expand...


Oh, and I'm TOTALLY on-board with ya Wills. I pretty much figured most of the things you listed just by looking at the paint, but what I'm saying is you could get better, faster results by switching things up. ;) It won't be a showcar, but you can at least make it look nice again without having to do 8 passes on one section, ya know? :D
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
It's always going to be hard to tell 100% from a picture but from what I'm seeing it looks like some of those scratches are too deep to safely remove.
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing Mike. My plan of attack on this would be to getthe paint looks as good as possible. I would first use the new Surbuf pad 5.5'' With M105 then switch to 5.5'' Cyan Hydro pad and 105 then finally 5.5'' Tang. Hydro Pad and M205. Then if you would like a finsh polish and a Black Lake COuntry Pad. Then seal and your done.

If the scratchs go down to the primer or metal you will now be able to remove then.

If you have the old PC Look into the GG DA you will love it
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
It's always going to be hard to tell 100% from a picture but from what I'm seeing it looks like some of those scratches are too deep to safely remove.

Even if you can remove them without going through the clear coat, removing the 100% may leave too little clear paint left to sufficiently protect the basecoat.

That's why for daily drivers I always recommend removing the shallow stuff and learning to live with the RIDS.

I think I mention that in this article,

RIDS - The Definition of RIDS and the story behind the term...




:)
Click to expand...

Hey Mike, I had read that write up of yours a week or so ago, thats how i kinda figured out why these marks became even more apparent even thou I was compounding. I figuerd I was kinda screwed as far as getting it perfect, but wanted thought as to if it was safe to continue to compound, or should I try wetsanding?

I guess my main concern is 'what if this was a customers car?' ya know?

O.C.Detailing said:
Oh, and I'm TOTALLY on-board with ya Wills. I pretty much figured most of the things you listed just by looking at the paint, but what I'm saying is you could get better, faster results by switching things up. ;) It won't be a showcar, but you can at least make it look nice again without having to do 8 passes on one section, ya know? :D
Click to expand...

YES the 8 passes was quite tiring on a 20x20 section Adam lol. Its good to know I could get better results and nice to know how to go about getting them :).


sullysdetailing said:
I was thinking the same thing Mike. My plan of attack on this would be to getthe paint looks as good as possible. I would first use the new Surbuf pad 5.5'' With M105 then switch to 5.5'' Cyan Hydro pad and 105 then finally 5.5'' Tang. Hydro Pad and M205. Then if you would like a finsh polish and a Black Lake COuntry Pad. Then seal and your done.



If the scratchs go down to the primer or metal you will now be able to remove then.



If you have the old PC Look into the GG DA you will love it
Click to expand...

I'm pretty much sold on the surbuf pads...wish ADS carried them which is just 2 miles from where I live lol...oh well, shipping it is i guess :-. I'm also very interested in the hydro pads, ESPECIALLY after this 5th wheel job we just finished today. MAN was that pad caked up. Had a Megs Polishing 6.5" pad...whew...it was goopy! With the Hydro pads...will I avoid having all that wax build up deep in the pad and be able to just to a surface wipe or a 'clean on the fly' and be good to go?

I'm not an expert at removing these things yet, but since now i can actually FEEL the RIDS/Scratches etc...I'm afraid they are all the way down ...

Does the GG have the forced drive like the Flex?
 
HEy don't forget Poor boy's BLACK HOLE! It will help to knock down the appearance of RIDS that can not be removed, It wont take them away completely but a few applications of a glaze can really help!

Chris
 
Da Fats said:
HEy don't forget Poor boy's BLACK HOLE! It will help to knock down the appearance of RIDS that can not be removed, It wont take them away completely but a few applications of a glaze can really help!

Chris
Click to expand...


I guess in the case of a car in this kind of condition, using a glaze isn't TOO bad of an idea, but just remember this Wills, FIXING a problem is FAR better than covering it up. Fixing problems is not only better for your reputation as a detailer, but it also gives you credibility.

Everyone is different, so don't think badly of me when I type this, but unless there are things that just CAN NOT be removed because of the dangers involved with going too aggressively, I personally feel that glazes are a cop-out for people who actually don't have the skill to remove defects in paint and want a quick buck.

Glazes DO have a place in the detailing world, don't get me wrong, but even a 5th grader can use a glaze...takes no skill. Removing defects is practically an art-form. Not everyone can do it and even those who can, sometimes don't do it well. There are VERY few detailers who actually are perfect at this profession. I'm DEFINITELY not one of them. I make plenty of mistakes.

Like I said, this is personal opinion, it means nothing on the whole.
 
Both points well taken...Id rather fix it, and i wouldnt use a glaze on a cutomers car unless i had no choice AND they were ok with it.
 
Wills.WindowsAndWheels said:
Do you think at this point the flex would be a good investment, or just go for a rotary and practice at home till I get a knack for it?
Click to expand...

The Flex 3401 is a great machine, I wouldn't give up mine for the world, but that FLEX LK603VVB on sale for $169.99 is lookin pretty tasty! :hungry: You can't go wrong either way.
 
I would also watch out on your clear. Do you guys really think it is a good idea to be compounding with 105 on an orange or surbuf pad back to back to back???? To me thats crazy and now you have a super uneven clear on your hood. Am I alone here?
 
RIDS to deep to fix (ones that catch your nail) on a factory paint job leave you no alternative but a glaze, unless your a feather sanding master... A glaze is a tool like many others in your arsenal ignoring it is just not intelligent.

Many costumers are not interested in perfect paint or not willing to invest the money in it up front. You may consider it low skill but it has its place.

I also use Black hole and White diamond to knock down the bug splatter etching to a more tolerable level on A LOT of cars I detail. I am not selling a polish job and not doing it, I am selling the glaze to help with a blemish that simply will not polish out.

Hell I just used it today on a scuff that only polished out 75% with 105 with wool on the rotary x 3... I was not pushing it much more on the compounding as it was damaged paint to begin with. White diamond filled the deeper scratches that could not be removed, got the correction closer to that 90% mark and dropped a few more feet off the "Catch your eye" range. All this was explained to the costumer up front.

It's not bad practice to use a glaze if thats what your costumer asks for knowing its temporary and that it will need to be redone with the next wax. My bro in law refuses to let me polish out his truck... "It's a truck" is his responce. But he pays me to glaze then wax it 3 times a year because of how happy he was with the results the first time I showed him what it did and it does not cost him to much more then a wash and wax.

Sorry for the Rant

Chris
 
Da Fats said:
RIDS to deep to fix (ones that catch your nail) on a factory paint job leave you no alternative but a glaze, unless your a feather sanding master... A glaze is a tool like many others in your arsenal ignoring it is just not intelligent.

Many costumers are not interested in perfect paint or not willing to invest the money in it up front. You may consider it low skill but it has its place.

I also use Black hole and White diamond to knock down the bug splatter etching to a more tolerable level on A LOT of cars I detail. I am not selling a polish job and not doing it, I am selling the glaze to help with a blemish that simply will not polish out.

Hell I just used it today on a scuff that only polished out 75% with 105 with wool on the rotary x 3... I was not pushing it much more on the compounding as it was damaged paint to begin with. White diamond filled the deeper scratches that could not be removed, got the correction closer to that 90% mark and dropped a few more feet off the "Catch your eye" range. All this was explained to the costumer up front.

It's not bad practice to use a glaze if thats what your costumer asks for knowing its temporary and that it will need to be redone with the next wax. My bro in law refuses to let me polish out his truck... "It's a truck" is his responce. But he pays me to glaze then wax it 3 times a year because of how happy he was with the results the first time I showed him what it did and it does not cost him to much more then a wash and wax.

Sorry for the Rant

Chris
Click to expand...

Ill keep it in mind fats. Ive never used a glaze, and if ever ive seen a situation where a car needs one...this would be it.

What do you usually charge a customer for a wash and wax, and then what do you add if they ask for a glaze? Still trying to get pricing ideas, thanks man.
 
Mike goes over Meg's #7 in his single stage thread which may be something to look into. From the last picture, it looks like you're working on an Integra? If so, I'd be fairly cautious about doing any actual wetsanding as the clear is on its last legs. As Mike said, you're most likely just going to have to live with them in the end, and try to do as much covering up on them with a glaze, then after that, just keep up on the waxing.

Are the RIDS localized to just the hood or are they all over the rest of the car as well? If they are just on the hood, you may consider contacting a local bodyshop to see if they would be able to reclear the hood, then proceed in your typical colorsand/buff.
 
Wills.WindowsAndWheels said:
Ill keep it in mind fats. Ive never used a glaze, and if ever ive seen a situation where a car needs one...this would be it.

What do you usually charge a customer for a wash and wax, and then what do you add if they ask for a glaze? Still trying to get pricing ideas, thanks man.
Click to expand...

For a Wash and wax... 50 - 65 bucks... but I think I might be a little on the cheap side there ( most cars are so caked up with bugs and tar around here it definitely takes a bit of time to get it wax ready. i'll add 20 or 25 for a glaze as part of a full detail... I do not usually offer it with just a wash n wax due to wanting to strip the paint down before I use it.
 
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