what is wrong with my spoiler?

timaishu

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I bought my altima november 2009 and since day one of ownership, the rear spoiler has looked like the pictures below.

It looks like someone dragged sand paper across it or something. I cant grab them with my finger nail like I could with a scratch. Here is the weird part, I have gone over the surface with an LC orange with my GG with Ultimate Compound probably about 6 times since owning the car and it hasn't improved it at all.

I recently wetsanded it using 2000-2500 grit. It was my first time wetsanding and I must have done it right as I had white slurry coming off and I didnt go throught the clear. I then removed the sanding marks with a white pad and swirlX. And guess what.. It looks no different than before.

Whats going on here? Is a repaint in order? This is what it currently looks like and what it looks like 2 years ago.

P1030149.jpg

P1030147.jpg

P1030145.jpg

P1030144.jpg
 
If you did all that, then I would guess that those are in the base coat (Under the clear).

Also, not saying you did, and by looking at the lines I don't think is the case, but is it possible that you inserted some swirls back into the paint while removing the polish? (Again, not saying you did, just trying to guess)
 
If it looked like that day one then you should of had the dealer fix it under warranty. Now it's your dime.
 
If you did all that, then I would guess that those are in the base coat (Under the clear).

Also, not saying you did, and by looking at the lines I don't think is the case, but is it possible that you inserted some swirls back into the paint while removing the polish? (Again, not saying you did, just trying to guess)

Those scratches definitely are not typical swirling. Speaking of swirls, I forgot to mention those as well. Due to my paint color, I can only really see paint swirls at night under halogens like at a gas station. Those 6 rounds of polishing did not even touch the swirls. The swirls were either a crap load of rids that look like swirls or it was repainted with amazingly hard clear. I havn't taken it out at night to take a look after my wet sanding.

The rest of my cars swirls came out easy accept for that spoiler.

If it looked like that day one then you should of had the dealer fix it under warranty. Now it's your dime.

TBH I didn't notice it till I started really started getting into detailing months later. Besides, it wasn't a Nissan Dealer, it was a hole in the wall place and I couldn't even get an alignment out of them when I complained about it. Also, it was 6k passed warranty when I bought it.
 
I think those look like they are in the base coat. I once had a car that had repair work done on a panel. It had similar looking marks in that panel. I believe it was improper prep before tr clear was applied. Maybe sanding marks from sand paper that was too coarse before clear was applied
 
That really looks like incipient CC failure to me. But I guess it isn't if you've compounded it 6 times and wet-sanded it and it still hasn't failed.
 
I've seen that MANY times on Nissan spoilers. I've tried to remedy it a couple times with no success. I think it's clear coat failure.
 
Factory cars are painted with en electrostatic process in a controlled environment then baked to ensure the dry spray "melts" and adheres to the surface.

Accessories like spoilers "may" not be finished in the same manor and are not mounted on the vehicle during the main finishing process.

It's quite possible that these are manually finished and those could be sand scratches in the paint then clear coated. If you've wet sanded and polished the finish with no improvement then those are in the color coat, not the clear coat. That said, you have two choices; live with this condition or have it refinished..
 
I didn't know that Bobby. So it's a similar process to powder coating
 
I didn't know that Bobby. So it's a similar process to powder coating

Yes it is and if I were to try and describe it I'd call it powder coating too...

Huh? If you're talking about how cars (and plenty of other stuff) are painted in production, it's NOT powder coating. The electrostatic charge is used to reduce overspray (for cost and environmental reasons), and this is similar to the way powdercoating is done, but the similarity ends there. Cars are painted, and paint is not powdercoat.
 
Huh? If you're talking about how cars (and plenty of other stuff) are painted in production, it's NOT powder coating. The electrostatic charge is used to reduce overspray (for cost and environmental reasons), and this is similar to the way powdercoating is done, but the similarity ends there. Cars are painted, and paint is not powdercoat.

You are correct and I stand corrected! I spoke with a friend of mine in the automotive paint industry and misunderstood his explanation....

Most of the paints applied at the factory today are still in a wet form are a combination of water and solvents. They do however employ an electrostatic process which attracts only a certain amount of product to the panel controlling the film thickness from .0008 to .0012.

Typically the paint head of the robot is under high pressure and spins at approximately 25,000 to 30,000 rpm. This ensures that the product it properly atomized also creating a specific spray pattern conducive to full coverage.

Once the product has been applied it gets baked on at a temp of 250 to 265 degrees Fahrenheit to ensure that the solvents and water are removed from the paint and the finish is hard...
 
OP; The crud you are seeing in the spoiler is the micro splits in the fiberglass that has caused the base coat to stripe. Very common with cheap factory spoilers... I see this all the time and the truth of the matter to fix it is it needs to be sanded down, gel coated then painted...

Some factory spoilers are not gel coated when they are painted which creates the issue as the fiberglass absorbs the paint like a sponge...
 
OP; The crud you are seeing in the spoiler is the micro splits in the fiberglass that has caused the base coat to stripe. Very common with cheap factory spoilers... I see this all the time and the truth of the matter to fix it is it needs to be sanded down, gel coated then painted...

Some factory spoilers are not gel coated when they are painted which creates the issue as the fiberglass absorbs the paint like a sponge...

Hey Chris,

If it's in the fiberglass wouldn't this be detected during final inspection at the factory?

Your explanation certainly sounds plausible and looking at it over time, I'm wondering if this is something that happens that the heat and cold causes, sort of like separation caused by thermal expansion and contraction of both paint and glass?

I think you're on to something here Chris!! :props:
 
Hey Chris,

If it's in the fiberglass wouldn't this be detected during final inspection at the factory?

Your explanation certainly sounds plausible and looking at it over time, I'm wondering if this is something that happens that the heat and cold causes, sort of like separation cause by thermal expansion and contraction of both paint and glass?

I think you're on to something here Chris!! :props:

No it wouldn't be caught in FI due to the fact that the fiberglass hasn't started to absorb the actual bc... the primer on factory spoilers is a thick product... It will take a while and it in fact does have something to do with the contraction and expansion of cold and hot...

For cars like ours (Vette) you won't see things like this very often as they are not "fiberglass" they are SMC (Sheet Molded Compound) that gets a good gel coat. For most factory spoilers the spoiler is not painted until they (the dealer) decides that the car needs a spoiler... Then they order them in the painted color and install them there (hence some lower end models having a mildly different color difference and on occasion not being mounted perfectly) You see this most in vehicles like Nissan Altimas and Maximas, Kias, Hyundai's, and Honda's...

If you notice in all spoiler issues like this you will see the lines running from one side to the other not from front to back this is the pattern of spray you sweep from right to left...

Another cause to this is this type of spoiler isn't actually designed to truly take the true down force and drag of the air they aren't reinforced and structurally designed that way they are purely for looks... Have you ever seen a race car with a nicely molded spoiler or do they generally have aluminum bracing and strutting? It is the stress that allows the primer to "fail" and allows the fiberglass show the cracking...
 
OP; The crud you are seeing in the spoiler is the micro splits in the fiberglass that has caused the base coat to stripe.



I've seen this defect pattern in fiberglass and urethane rubber components before and could never find a term that describes what the problems, for lack of better terminology I called the defect we're seeing simply cracks in the paint but that doesn't really do the defect justice.

Micro-splits sounds good though...

I agree with the diagnosis... that is no amount of sanding or buffing will fix the problem, the only way to fix this will be to repaint.


:)
 
I've seen this defect pattern in fiberglass and urethane rubber components before and could never find a term that describes what the problems, for lack of better terminology I called the defect we're seeing simply cracks in the paint but that doesn't really do the defect justice.

Micro-splits sounds good though...

I agree with the diagnosis... that is no amount of sanding or buffing will fix the problem, the only way to fix this will be to repaint.


:)

Once sanded to the raw material it NEEDS to be gel coated then painted or the problem will come back again in a few months or years...

You don't tend to see this much in boats as they have to be gel coated to ensure that the fiberglass won't do this causing "leaks" or "rot"....
 
What you have on that spoiler is actually millions of fractures in the clear coating. Whether it be a gel coat or a normal clear coat paint they are fractures or cracks that are clean through through the coating and that's why they can't be sanded off. They are not in the base coat. Maybe there is some technical name or some coined name for this phenomenon but is is simply a failure (cracking) in the clear coating so I call it clear coat failure.

I have seen numerous examples of this type of failure and am not really sure what causes it in all cases but can tell you that when a car's clear coat has been reduced to a state where it is too thin from over polishing this cracking will occur and will accelerate getting worse as time goes by. This is the particular case with my Buick which has steel panels. When I first started detailing cars I practiced on my Buick with my first polisher, (Cyclo) at the time I had yet to learn the rule of thumb "least aggressive/abrasive method first" and used lots of different over the counter aggressive products such as 3M Heavy Duty Rubbing Compound with cutting pads on my Cyclo and then followed that with finishing pads and a finishing polish creating the perfect finish.

A year or so down the road (doing this work for money) I bought a Makita rotary polisher and again practiced with it using my Buick and other beater cars, further reducing the thickness of the clear on my Buick. This was not me just blindly cutting away at my clear coat as I had done enough research to know better but rather a conscious decision to sacrifice the paint on my own car instead of making these mistakes on a customer's car. The result was the same exact cracking as seen in the photo of your spoiler, though likely with a different root cause of the failure.

So clear that is too thin and has lost it's protective properties against the sun's damaging ultra violet rays is just one cause of this phenomenon. Incidentally, I have purposely cut clean through the clear on the trunk lid of my Buick just to see if these fractures go beyond the clear paint and into the base or color coat. They do not go that far. Once the clear was removed from a section of my trunk lid, the appearance of the cracking was also removed.

I have also seen many examples of this cracking or fractured clear coat failure on Mercedes-Benz vehicles. Most of which have been one owner cars and have never been buffed out by detailers except for the dealer prep when they were brand new. The cause of this failure on these cars is unknown to me but I have quizzed the owners about how they cared for the paint and most say that they were told by the dealership that the car didn't need to be waxed because "It has a clear coat" :doh: so it seems in these cases the paint was simply neglected as a result of misinformation. :nomore:

Then there has been the Mercedes-Benz owner that claims to have waxed or sealed the vehicle thinking that over the counter waxes and sealants are akin to the force field on the Starship Enterprise. "Well, I wax it every other year" is something I hear very often and they are shocked when I tell them that OTC waxes and sealants last only a few months at best.

I had once detailed a GMC Safari that was a beautiful dark green in color and the passenger side door only, had this type of clear coat failure. When I sprayed it with a quick detailer and wiped it back off the door looked perfect but then in about 20 minutes when to QD dried from the cracks or fractures, the door looked the same. Why just the door?

I have seen this phenomenon almost in every case where I show up to detail a car and find it parked under pine trees completely covered in black tree dirt, sap and pine needles, suggesting that acidic erosion of the paint is also a common cause of this type of failure.

Though this phenomenon or failure is something that I see quite often as a professional auto detailer, it's cause is still very much a mystery to me except in the case of my own car and the cars parked under the pine trees. I can only assume that in "most cases" it is as a result of neglect in not keeping the paint protected from the elements.

In your particular case, my theory is that you have a spoiler that is subject to expansion and contraction due to temperature changes and has been sprayed with a clear coat with no "flex agent" mixed into the paint or has a gel coat as has been suggested by others and as a result of the constant expanding and contracting of the plastic or fiberglass material, the clear coating whether it be a gel coat of just a common clear paint with no flexing abilities, the clear has cracked.

These are my experiences and opinions. Take it for what it's worth. Food for thought that I hope helps or enlightens someone or inspires someone to research the subject further. TD
 
What you have on that spoiler is actually millions of fractures in the clear coating. Whether it be a gel coat or a normal clear coat paint they are fractures or cracks that are clean through through the coating and that's why they can't be sanded off. They are not in the base coat. Maybe there is some technical name or some coined name for this phenomenon but is is simply a failure (cracking) in the clear coating so I call it clear coat failure.

I have seen numerous examples of this type of failure and am not really sure what causes it in all cases but can tell you that when a car's clear coat has been reduced to a state where it is too thin from over polishing this cracking will occur and will accelerate getting worse as time goes by. This is the particular case with my Buick which has steel panels. When I first started detailing cars I practiced on my Buick with my first polisher, (Cyclo) at the time I had yet to learn the rule of thumb "least aggressive/abrasive method first" and used lots of different over the counter aggressive products such as 3M Heavy Duty Rubbing Compound with cutting pads on my Cyclo and then followed that with finishing pads and a finishing polish creating the perfect finish.

A year or so down the road (doing this work for money) I bought a Makita rotary polisher and again practiced with it using my Buick and other beater cars, further reducing the thickness of the clear on my Buick. This was not me just blindly cutting away at my clear coat as I had done enough research to know better but rather a conscious decision to sacrifice the paint on my own car instead of making these mistakes on a customer's car. The result was the same exact cracking as seen in the photo of your spoiler, though likely with a different root cause of the failure.

So clear that is too thin and has lost it's protective properties against the sun's damaging ultra violet rays is just one cause of this phenomenon. Incidentally, I have purposely cut clean through the clear on the trunk lid of my Buick just to see if these fractures go beyond the clear paint and into the base or color coat. They do not go that far. Once the clear was removed from a section of my trunk lid, the appearance of the cracking was also removed.

I have also seen many examples of this cracking or fractured clear coat failure on Mercedes-Benz vehicles. Most of which have been one owner cars and have never been buffed out by detailers except for the dealer prep when they were brand new. The cause of this failure on these cars is unknown to me but I have quizzed the owners about how they cared for the paint and most say that they were told by the dealership that the car didn't need to be waxed because "It has a clear coat" :doh: so it seems in these cases the paint was simply neglected as a result of misinformation. :nomore:

Then there has been the Mercedes-Benz owner that claims to have waxed or sealed the vehicle thinking that over the counter waxes and sealants are akin to the force field on the Starship Enterprise. "Well, I wax it every other year" is something I hear very often and they are shocked when I tell them that OTC waxes and sealants last only a few months at best.

I had once detailed a GMC Safari that was a beautiful dark green in color and the passenger side door only, had this type of clear coat failure. When I sprayed it with a quick detailer and wiped it back off the door looked perfect but then in about 20 minutes when to QD dried from the cracks or fractures, the door looked the same. Why just the door?

I have seen this phenomenon almost in every case where I show up to detail a car and find it parked under pine trees completely covered in black tree dirt, sap and pine needles, suggesting that acidic erosion of the paint is also a common cause of this type of failure.

Though this phenomenon or failure is something that I see quite often as a professional auto detailer, it's cause is still very much a mystery to me except in the case of my own car and the cars parked under the pine trees. I can only assume that in "most cases" it is as a result of neglect in not keeping the paint protected from the elements.

In your particular case, my theory is that you have a spoiler that is subject to expansion and contraction due to temperature changes and has been sprayed with a clear coat with no "flex agent" mixed into the paint or has a gel coat as has been suggested by others and as a result of the constant expanding and contracting of the plastic or fiberglass material, the clear coating whether it be a gel coat of just a common clear paint with no flexing abilities, the clear has cracked.

These are my experiences and opinions. Take it for what it's worth. Food for thought that I hope helps or enlightens someone or inspires someone to research the subject further. TD


Dave,

I will agree with you fully on the paint on a metal panel's reasoning. As that has been my experience as well.

As far as the spoiler I have done a lot of reading and talking to fiberglass experts about this and on a car that is nearly perfect paint wise and the only part of the paint that looks like this being the fiberglass bits that is my diagnosis. I have seen this also in cheap fiberglass hoods (the "ricer boy" types)...

If you notice you generally will not see this type of issue with a carbon fiber piece as they are generally cleared with an epoxy system to give that gloss... Although CF has it's own series of issues that can happen through cheaper outlets and production...

A properly done piece of fiberglass should be sanded and perfected then gel coated (not the same type of gel coat as a final step over a base coat it is basically a primer) then painted with the proper bc (using a flex agent) the cleared (again using a flex agent) if the piece is taken to a competent painter (one that has worked with fiberglass for a while) they will know how to do it properly.

I think we are all adding great info here and it is all relevant to the issue at hand...
 
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