~*Just bought Flex!!*~ some Help from experts plz( PADS...etc)

I prefer the Lake Country Hybrid pads on the 3401 bar none. These were designed for the characteristics of the 3401.

You don't necessarily have to perform a 3 step. Often times a 2 step is all that is needed. Unless you are after the utmost gloss, depth, and reflection.

I would have 6 pads of each feature on hand. 6 Cutting, 6 polishing, 6 finishing just to be safe.

Yes a pad brush is recommended to remove built up product from the face of the pad between sections. With the 3401, I brush my pads off while the machine is off.

The 4" plate for the 3401 is what I use along with the 5" Hybrid pads.

EuroTech said:

3) What is reason you use the 4 inch over 5 or 6 inch plate?

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I use the 5" Hybrid pads with the 4" plate on the 3401 for smaller areas or smaller vehicles. For larger areas, trucks, and SUV's I will equip the factory 5.5" plate to run the larger 6.5" Hybrid pads.

Any thoughts on flexable backing plates? And what brand do you use?

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There are no flexible backing plates for the 3401. They are all rigid.

There are only two backing plate manufacturer options for the Flex 3401. Flex plates or Lake Country plates.

4) Have you ever used the lake country CCS pads.

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No. I use flat faced pads such as the Hybrids with DAT based polishes such as Menzerna.

thoughts on these compared to the Hybrids? (appear to help use less product, so wouldn't they take longer to don't cake up? I assume the indentation cause the whole pad to not be touching so. Does this causing longer polishing time or more passes? Any benefits you can see in this ?
Always like the New and improved yet i'm always a little weary )

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A flat pad ensures equal breakdown of the DAT abrasives. You don't want fresh product being mixed in with broken down polish.

This is not a concern with SMAT polishes

6)) So you just swap your pads out almost per panel. 6 pads= 1 hood,1 bumper, 2 door, 1 roof, 1runk. Do you do this for speed of detail rather than clean pad, just swap and go? What is the lowest number of pads you've used with good results?

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Personally I use a pad washer in between panels to keep my pads at optimal condition. Here is my method I use when utilizing a pad washer. If you don't have a pad washer then you will need more pads in rotation.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/62816-my-pad-washing-technique-review.html

It appears that vast majority of packaged deals around the web with the Flex come with the CCS pads any thoughts as to why?

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I have no idea why.

I would really like to see a package deal with the Hybrid pads.

I use the plates equally. The smaller 4" Lake Country plates for the smaller 5" Hybrid plates and factory flex plate for the larger 6.5" Hybrid pads. Between the plates on the Flex they are identical. In this case you are just matching the plate size to the pad.

In fact the indentations allow the DAT based polish to break down at different intervals.

DAT=Diminishing Abrasive Technology
SMAT=Super Micro Abrasive Technology

Menzerna=DAT
Meguiar's in general=SMAT

Mike pretty much nailed it on the head! Great info sir!

Congrats on the purchase of your 3401. You will love the power and correcting ability that if offers.

The 5" Lake Country Hybrid pads along 4" plate are amazing, and don't skimp on the number of pads.

Great comments from master detailer Mike (Smack). I really appreciate all his insights to Flex and Menzerna. Several comments:

a) Buy Mike Phillips book. 90%-100% of your questions will be answered. There are also tons of pictures and the whole Flex regime is properly discussed. There is also some things that are very important that are cited in that book. 1/4 of the book is on proper detail procedures but it is still a huge asset and worth every penny.

B) Don't bother with any other pads except LC Hybrid. Why fight or try to configure other pads when every known top detailer prefers these pads. For the 4 inch Buy 12 Black, 12 White and 12 Orange. I also went crazy and purchased the Blue and Yellow. I have the full arsenal. For the 6.5 inch buy 6 of each. The main reason is that, at least for me, time is critical and a 6.5 inch pad will be good on the larger horizontal panels - roof hood and trunk. You then switch out the backing plate (but you clearly don't need to - just use 4inch for whole car) to the plate that comes with the Flex (factory plate) and put on the 6.5 inch pads. These pads are incredible - super easy to work, smooth, and just makes this whole process fun. Oh yeah, the cars come out incredible - even on a one step.

c) Backing plates. The LC 4 inch is a must. It is pretty easy to put on and to switch it out. I am too lazy to switch them out so I bought another flex - one for 6.5 and one for 4 inch. If you can buy the pad washer - i have one and it is great but not really needed if you have enough pads. After the detail just wash them down with pad cleaner and let them dry for a day. You can't use them once they are washed since the retain moisture - trust me I learned the hard way since when i used a moist one, product slinged all over the place and my neighbors house got some 3in1 on it. Whoops.

d) I am starting to think like Mike Phillips now who maintains that the most important thing when it comes to detailing is the abrasive product. The tool is critical but the product really does matter. So get all things Menzerna (an incredible product and probably the best or one of the best on the market). Mike aka Smack has his whole technique laid out and it works incredible. You only need two bottles 32 ounce of Menzerna and you will have a show car quality car. You also need a sealant - Powerlock Colorlock combo. But feel free to use anything. I use Zaino on my own ride and 3in1 on the rest of the families (with Power and Color lock on top).

e) Finally, for tight areas you will either need a mini machine (3 inch polisher) or hand applicator. I generally do it by hand and for 4 inch x 4 inch areas it doesn't take long and works perfect.

I just got the Flex myself and wow - what a machine and process. For me, being a weekend warrior, keeping my rides maintained perfectly in a expedited fashion is critical. I can't spend 15 hrs on a detail. I need to have the tools and products that can get the job done in shortest amount of time and have them near show car quality. Flex does it and it is a pleasure to use.

As an aside, you made the right purchase IMO. I researched why one wouldn't just always buy a Flex (as there are tons of DA options out there) and the best explanation I heard was from Ammo NYC who said he works on $1 million dollar cars and he can't risk making the slightest mistake. The Flex may, in very very limited cases (not sure this is true but what I heard) burn paint (raised/curved body line) and when you are working on a $1 million car you need the machine to stop/stall if it hits this type of area to prevent damage. So that at least makes sense. Everything else is pretty subjective, "finishing better", "smoothness", "easy on the hands", "correction time", etc. Since I don't have a $1 million car Flex was the way for me.

One last thing - good luck and please post your experience with the Flex. It is so important to hear from "new" detailers on their procedures and results. I spent a lot of time with other products and tools only to finally realize that Flex/Menzerna was the best for me. It was so great to finally use a tool and product that created a near show car shine in a few hours with no frustration or stress. Just polish and evaluate the results in record time.

Great comments from master detailer Mike (Smack). I really appreciate all his insights to Flex and Menzerna. Several comments:

a) Buy Mike Phillips book. 90%-100% of your questions will be answered. There are also tons of pictures and the whole Flex regime is properly discussed. There is also some things that are very important that are cited in that book. 1/4 of the book is on proper detail procedures but it is still a huge asset and worth every penny.

:dblthumb2: I have #74 of Mike`s books I am still going thru it and find more info on the flex each time. Should have bought this sooner I would have saved money on products.

Could not agree any more with all of the above comments within this thread, Hybrid/Menzerna combo is sick, I was a die hard Pinnacle loyalist, but cant ignore the facts. I still use a ton of Pinnacle products, but for compound/polish the Germans figured it out just a little better I guess...:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

EuroTech said:

In terms of pads for Cut Polish & Finish LC Hybrid Would you recommend something in-between these or will these ones work well..
Cut Orange FG400
Polish White SF4000
Finish Black SF4500
I'd like to be able to work on newer car and paint in need of care 4+ years will these suffice?

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These are the basic necessities to have on hand to get started and will tackle just about anything thrown at your way within reason.

Later on if you need more or less cut you can pick up a Hybrid wool for more cut or Hybrid blue for less cut.

Same goes for the polishing and finishing pads. Yellow for a bit less cut and higher finish.

In all of my testing, SF4000 on white was able to pull up anything left behind from the first cutting step while finishing out really well. This includes finishing up the paint even after the PE14, Hybrid wool pad, and Menzerna SC300.

I have followed Mike's procedure and havent looked back. 3401 with the hybrid pads is a great combo.

Mike@DedicatedPerfection said:

These are the basic necessities to have on hand to get started and will tackle just about anything thrown at your way within reason.

Later on if you need more or less cut you can pick up a Hybrid wool for more cut or Hybrid blue for less cut.

Same goes for the polishing and finishing pads. Yellow for a bit less cut and higher finish.

In all of my testing, SF4000 on white was able to pull up anything left behind from the first cutting step while finishing out really well. This includes finishing up the paint even after the PE14, Hybrid wool pad, and Menzerna SC300.

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Couldn't agree with Mike more..... I hardly ever would need an extra step after SF4000 to clear up the paint (post compounding). To be exact, I can only recall one incident when I jewel the paint with SF4500 with a black pad after the SF4000 / white hybrid combo. I could barely tell the difference afterwards.

My advice to OP.... there is no magic formula where product A with product B on STEP 1 .... follow up with C with D for STEP 2 ...then use E with F for STEP 3 = Guarantee glossy and shiny paint every time.

If such formula is found, forums such as AG will cease to exist. IMO .... the technique is more important than the product if I have to choose one over another. You have to spend a little time with the flex to realize the full potential of the machine.

The 5 inch hybrid pads with the 4" backing plate is best combo to start your learning. If your technique is not sound, you will most likely to experience the "walking effect" with the larger pad. Here is the secret.... learn how to keep the pad flat to the surface. With the smaller pad, you will have a little more leverage over the machine and this will give you a better experience. The only drawback for the 5" pad is time. It takes much longer to finish a panel than a larger pad mainly due to the smaller pad surface area.

Pressure and the size of the work area will also affect your outcome. This plus a few good liquid/pad combo (with a bit of practice) will give you the best chance of having great consistent results.

A pad with no cut, will not impart it's own scratches into the paint. That's what you want to use with a super fine polish like Menzerna's SF4500.

SF= super finish. FG=fast gloss, SC= super cut? Don't get too hung up on the nomenclature.

The hybrid pads are beveled inward where the Velcro attaches to the backing plate which is why the 5" hybrid pads work with the LC 4" backing plate and the stock 5.5" plate that comes with the Flex works with the larger 6.5" pads.

As far as SF4000 vs. SF4500, according to Menzerna, they should both finish out the same. If you are looking to do FG400 as the compounding step, I'd recommend SF4000 on a white pad as the follow up. It'll take out the micromarring that FG400 might leave behind. If you wanted to attempt a super fine polishing step, then SF4500 would be the next step down on a finishing pad so that only a super fine abrasive with no pad cut would be used.

Diminishing abrasives start as a larger particle and then break down smaller and smaller as you polish. So if new product mixes with used product (we call it spent product here), the new larger particles undo some of your work. That's why Mike recommend flat pads vs. ones with dimples like the CCS pads.

Super micro abrasive particles are smaller than initial DAT particles (at the same level of cut, comparing compounds to compounds, then polishes, etc.) but the particles are uniform in size and are very hard and don't break apart. The cut is the same from beginning to end of the buffing cycle.

I believe DAT has been around longer than SMAT (at least in wide spread usage), but both are good technologies. Some folks like DAT based polishes as they claim they finish out better (they perceive a better end result) but some people prefer SMAT as you can spritz it with a bit of water and keep buffing the area and still continue to correct the paint, and they get amazing results too. SMAT polishes actually work quite well with pads that have dimples as the fresh polish will only serve to allow you to buff longer and it keeps it from drying on the panel and dusting or clumping and being a bear to wipe off.

I prefer Menzerna's DAT line of products, and I absolutely love the Uber Compound that they made for Wolfgang, a local house brand here. They have longer buffing cycles (stay wet for a long time) than most products and wipe off very easily in comparison to other polishes and compounds I have tried.

EuroTech said:

Ok All these SF, SC etc are confusing so looking them up.

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Don't think too much about the wording on the front half. What is important is the numbering system that follows it. The lower the number denotes a more aggressive compound. Meaning it will offer more cut. The higher the number relates to its polishing abilities. Meaning the higher it will finish.

Cant find SC300 what does the acronym refer too?

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I abbreviate this one as it is actually SHCC300. Super Heavy Cut Compound 300. SC300 for short.
Menzerna Super Heavy Cut Compound (SHC 300) 8 oz.

So To begin I should look at buying both the SF4000 & SF4500?

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Make sure you pick up FG400 as your compound to have on hand in case your test spot with SF4000 on white does not return the results you are looking for.

1) I thought that the finish black pad was used with a sealant. It doesn't have any abrasive but you still find prefer this pad too use with SF4500?
2)So this is a 3 part correction process, and a 1+ part protection( I can do carnauba after something like wolf gang, or is there a better follow up?)
3)What would my results be doing 2 step correction FG400 followed by SF4000, vs. adding the SF 4500?

4) So the black pad is used for the last step correction, as well as the sealant?

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1. You can use the black pad either with SF4500 or your LSP.
2. It can be a three, four, or more step process depending on how you look at it. That's up to you.
3. On your every day drivers and light colored paint, stop with SF4000 on white and put down your LSP. For dark colored paint, toy car, show car etc, the paint will benefit from a third step with SF4500 on black IME.
4. Yes

jrock645 said:

No love for hydro tech pads?

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I love the 3" pads for precision polishing when equipped on my PE14.

There is always something to learn. Your best bet is to pick up both books to help you really get a good understanding. Sure there is plenty of valuable information here on the forum but with Mike's books you can grab the book for reference at any time.

Once you get going with your new found knowledge from the books put what you have learned to use and work on a few vehicles to further your knowledge and get some hands on experience.