Microfine scratches with no rinse wash

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ChrisB2

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Lately, I moved on to no-rinse washes for both my wife's car and my car, which happen to be daily drivers.

This past weekend, I noticed a good bit of microfine scratches on both vehicles, and was wondering what modification to my technique I needed to perform to prevent this.

First off, my wife's car was covered with tree sap, so I mixed some ONR wash and wax in a spray bottle, sprayed her car down, then let it dwell. In my wash bucket, I used about a dozen microfiber towels, distilled water, and ONR solution mixed accordingly.

While washing, I fold the microfiber towel to where I get 1/4 to do the washing. As I pass over an area, I try to break each pass into 1/3s on the towel to catch the grit. I flip to a clean section of the towel, and repeat. When the towel gets soiled, I switch to another versus trying to rinse and reuse.

When drying, I use two Korean waffle weave towels. One to blot the surface dry and one to buff. When done, I noticed a few micro scratches in random parts of the car, namely the top and the trunk which had the most sap. I can't help but think this may have been from the tree sap being removed, yet being caught in the microfiber towel and being dragged across the surface of the car.

Next up, I did my car the same way, and noticed some micro fine scratches in random spots on it when done. I had no sap on my car, but I did have lots of grime after driving through a rain storm.

I guess my question is, what modification to my technique would I need to perform in order to prevent the microfine scratches? I was thinking about dragging a hose into the garage to actually rinse each section prior to drying. I guess first I need to determine if my scratching is caused by the washing portion or the drying portion, which I still have yet to determine... Then again, maybe I just have to deal with the microfine scratches as a way of life...

Regardless, I'm here to learn and open to suggestions on what to try next.
 
I believe most scratches was created when wash media touches the paint with certain amount of dirt.
How much dirt is safe enough to perform a no rinse wash?
That is no direct answer because not all dirt are created equal and this is something about risk & expectations management.
The safest method i discover and workable for me is to perform a pressure wash rinse down prior with no rinse or 2B wash. Some may see this as an unnecessary step for it defeat the purpose of true no rinse.

Regards
 
ChrisB2 said:
Lately, I moved on to no-rinse washes for both my wife's car and my car, which happen to be daily drivers.

This past weekend, I noticed a good bit of microfine scratches on both vehicles, and was wondering what modification to my technique I needed to perform to prevent this.

First off, my wife's car was covered with tree sap, so I mixed some ONR wash and wax in a spray bottle, sprayed her car down, then let it dwell. In my wash bucket, I used about a dozen microfiber towels, distilled water, and ONR solution mixed accordingly.

While washing, I fold the microfiber towel to where I get 1/4 to do the washing. As I pass over an area, I try to break each pass into 1/3s on the towel to catch the grit. I flip to a clean section of the towel, and repeat. When the towel gets soiled, I switch to another versus trying to rinse and reuse.

When drying, I use two Korean waffle weave towels. One to blot the surface dry and one to buff. When done, I noticed a few micro scratches in random parts of the car, namely the top and the trunk which had the most sap. I can't help but think this may have been from the tree sap being removed, yet being caught in the microfiber towel and being dragged across the surface of the car.

Next up, I did my car the same way, and noticed some micro fine scratches in random spots on it when done. I had no sap on my car, but I did have lots of grime after driving through a rain storm.

I guess my question is, what modification to my technique would I need to perform in order to prevent the microfine scratches? I was thinking about dragging a hose into the garage to actually rinse each section prior to drying. I guess first I need to determine if my scratching is caused by the washing portion or the drying portion, which I still have yet to determine... Then again, maybe I just have to deal with the microfine scratches as a way of life...

Regardless, I'm here to learn and open to suggestions on what to try next.
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It sounds like you need a pressure washer to rinse off the dried on sap. Pre soak with foam to soften sap and then pressure wash. Use your GDM to wash.
 
I guess I know what my next investment is! That would be a pressure washer.
 
ChrisB2 said:
Lately, I moved on to no-rinse washes for both my wife's car and my car, which happen to be daily drivers.

This past weekend, I noticed a good bit of microfine scratches on both vehicles, and was wondering what modification to my technique I needed to perform to prevent this.

First off, my wife's car was covered with tree sap, so I mixed some ONR wash and wax in a spray bottle, sprayed her car down, then let it dwell. In my wash bucket, I used about a dozen microfiber towels, distilled water, and ONR solution mixed accordingly.

While washing, I fold the microfiber towel to where I get 1/4 to do the washing. As I pass over an area, I try to break each pass into 1/3s on the towel to catch the grit. I flip to a clean section of the towel, and repeat. When the towel gets soiled, I switch to another versus trying to rinse and reuse.

When drying, I use two Korean waffle weave towels. One to blot the surface dry and one to buff. When done, I noticed a few micro scratches in random parts of the car, namely the top and the trunk which had the most sap. I can't help but think this may have been from the tree sap being removed, yet being caught in the microfiber towel and being dragged across the surface of the car.

Next up, I did my car the same way, and noticed some micro fine scratches in random spots on it when done. I had no sap on my car, but I did have lots of grime after driving through a rain storm.

I guess my question is, what modification to my technique would I need to perform in order to prevent the microfine scratches? I was thinking about dragging a hose into the garage to actually rinse each section prior to drying. I guess first I need to determine if my scratching is caused by the washing portion or the drying portion, which I still have yet to determine... Then again, maybe I just have to deal with the microfine scratches as a way of life...

Regardless, I'm here to learn and open to suggestions on what to try next.
Click to expand...

Man sorry to hear what you are going through. I too use rinse-less wash as I live in drought stricken CA. Your technique IMO is sound. However, the only difference that I do is a 2-Bucket 2 Grit guard method. I use a MF wash mitt or the Incredimitt by MF Madness. I will saturate each panel and gently glide my mitt across the panel (no more than 2-times per section). Rinse and then dry each section used. As for the Spray bottle I use a higher concentration of RW mixture and then RW (mitt) with the wash bucket.

I am not a fan of the Gary Dean's method of several MF toweks for each section. I look at too many variables to cause possible scratches (too many MF towels).

Using the wash mitt and cleaning it each time in the rinse bucket (scrubbing, cleaning and rinsing then on to the Wash bucket); I feel this is the safer route and I know I am getting rid of the dirt with the scrubbing in the rinse bucket.

As for the MF towels I use are the MF Drying towels (not Waffle Weaves). If I can blow the excess water off with my Sidekick I will. I use 2 towels when I dry. 1 large one to get most of the water off the other is to get the rest off.

What's really cool when I know I did a decent job of cleaning...my rinse bucket is dirty. My wash bucket is still the same color as I started with the rinseless wash solution.

This is just the way I do it and many others might have a different technique, however, it seems to be working well with My Black GT.

I did this over the weekend and here's the RW pic. I hope this will help!!
 
Kamakaz1961 said:
I am not a fan of the Gary Dean's method of several MF toweks for each section. I look at too many variables to cause possible scratches (too many MF towels).

Using the wash mitt and cleaning it each time in the rinse bucket (scrubbing and cleaning and rinsing); I feel this is the safer route and I know I am getting rid of the dirt with the scrubbing in the rinse bucket.



Not trying to be belligerent, but how can using too many mf towels cause scratches. Are you saying that rinsing a wash mitt in a rinse bucket will come out cleaner than a clean mf towel?
Click to expand...
 
Rsurfer said:
Kamakaz1961 said:
I am not a fan of the Gary Dean's method of several MF toweks for each section. I look at too many variables to cause possible scratches (too many MF towels).

Using the wash mitt and cleaning it each time in the rinse bucket (scrubbing and cleaning and rinsing); I feel this is the safer route and I know I am getting rid of the dirt with the scrubbing in the rinse bucket.



Not trying to be belligerent, but how can using too many mf towels cause scratches. Are you saying that rinsing a wash mitt in a rinse bucket will come out cleaner than a clean mf towel?
Click to expand...

Not saying anything like that. My preference is a mitt. The dedicated rinse bucket with the grit guard is the way I like it. I know that I will scrub most of the dirt off. It's just my preference.

I think the Gary Dean method is great method, it's just not for me and I do a little variance. Me knowing I scrubbed the dirt off is the key for me.
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You don't think its buffing with the Waffle weave? They aren't for buffing as far as I am concerned. Do a basic cd test on those towels.
 
Microfiber towels are not for washing cars as a wash media. Microfiber wash mitts are for washing cars. When you use towels to wash, there is nowhere for the dirt to go.
 
MattPersman said:
You don't think its buffing with the Waffle weave? They aren't for buffing as far as I am concerned. Do a basic cd test on those towels.
Click to expand...

IMHO Waffle Weave towels are "rougher" then Microfiber Towels. I like the dedicated Microfiber Drying towels. I used to use Waffle Weave towels, however, they did scratch my car when drying. Maybe I was to rough, however, not so with the current MF towels that I use.

So making the long story short, I agree with you about the Waffle Weaves.
 
Thanks for the suggestions. After I correct and opti-gloss my car, I will change my wash media and buffing towel to see if that makes a difference.
 
What MF's are you using for your RW? Do you inspect them after they get washed before using them again?

Kamakaz1961 said:
IMHO Waffle Weave towels are "rougher" then Microfiber Towels. I like the dedicated Microfiber Drying towels. I used to use Waffle Weave towels, however, they did scratch my car when drying. Maybe I was to rough, however, not so with the current MF towels that I use.
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I 100% agree with this. I only use waffle weave on glass now.

Try a something like dry me crazy.

I'd also add a drying aid, that way the surface is always lubricated when making contact with the paint surface.
 
Rsurfer said:
Not trying to be belligerent, but how can using too many mf towels cause scratches. Are you saying that rinsing a wash mitt in a rinse bucket will come out cleaner than a clean mf towel?
Click to expand...

:iagree: (Again... I'm also not trying to be belligerent here.)

Using too many CLEAN, VIRGIN microfiber towels isn't going to be a problem.
Now this IS however where the quality of the towels, combined with the amount of micro-contaminates on the surface IS going to be a problem.

Combine that with (IMO) the drying process and THAT'S where you get your scratches.

I know my red G35 will scratch if you LOOK AT IT funny! :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes: Therefore it's darned near impossible to do a rinseless on it, (without TONS of solution and TONS of towels). Even then you're looking at possibly scratching it. :(

Yet my wife's Denali is much harder, and can take the process better.

FWIW, my process I don't even fold the towel(s). I'll pre-treat the surface (have one of those 52oz pump sprayers with a brass nozzle you get from the garden department) first. Then take the towels (that were soaking in a higher than recommended dilution strength of RW 'juice'), and GENTLY place one on the surface. Then while holding it by two corners (only) I'll gingerly pull it across the surface, in one direction only, never in circles, and if I go back to where I started I'll turn the towel around. (Maximum of two passes with a single towel.)

Then I'll mist with pure distilled water and dry.

Again though.... the DRYING process I think is much of where the problem comes from.

Waffle weaves are decent enough for gentle 'patting', but I'll never 'buff' and/or 'rub' with one. :eek: I'll likely take a moistened 530 gsm (MFT) towel as the first pass (even then I'll likely 'pat' it) followed by a Korean 500 the second pass.

Is this too OCD?:dunno:

Probably so! :dblthumb2:


custmsprty said:
Just get a foamer:

BLACKFIRE Quart Foamaster Foam Gun, foamer, car wash foam gun, foam master
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Yup, a foam gun and a GOOD shampoo. I've found the one that makes the thickest, stickiest soap out there is Megs Hyper Wash.

I'd normally say get the "Butchers Foam Gun" as it *IS* the Gilmour gun. But for more than year now it's been unavailable here in the US. I suspect detailing sites that put their own name(s) on them have worked up exclusivity deals on it, (as their label/brand). FWIW... all the rest are red/white, where the butchers one is blue/white. Why you ask? Because that particular gun was once available for $30... while "detailing" guns were twice that. Now days the detailing guns MAY be found a little cheaper, but the "butchers" gun is not to be had. (Did find it in eastern Europe today though.) :laughing:

I'd suggest to the OP an investment in a 1500~1700 PSI electric pressure washer, that and a foam cannon. I use less, WAY LESS shampoo with a cannon than I ever did with the 'gun'. Plus the foam is 500% thicker, and lasts longer (as a bonus). :D Then there is the fact that with one of them you actually use less water. :dblthumb2:
 
I've never been a fan of rinseless washing and never will be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Black BMW - been washing it for years without having marring issues. I can tell you waffle weave towels don't scratch - unless they are cheap or something. I use waffle weaves for a lot of tasks. If stuff is clean and of good quality - that is not the source of your problem. IME there is no magic towel, towel vendor, COO for towels, soap, or wash media. It's just not as critical as some may lead you to believe.

The single thing that makes a difference is pressure washing as mentioned above. Rinsing dirt off a surface will always be safer than wiping it off, regardless what soap you use.

IMHO, the "method", soap, or wash media you use after pressure washing is irrelevant. I've used them all: rinseless, waterless, 2BM, towels, MF mitts, BH brushes, sheepskin / wool mitts, etc... None of them inherently will cause scratches if they are of good quality and used with care.

Scratches come from wiping dirt off a dirty surface.
 
swanicyouth said:
Black BMW - been washing it for years without having marring issues. I can tell you waffle weave towels don't scratch - unless they are cheap or something. I use waffle weaves for a lot of tasks. If stuff is clean and of good quality - that is not the source of your problem. IME there is no magic towel, towel vendor, COO for towels, soap, or wash media. It's just not as critical as some may lead you to believe.

The single thing that makes a difference is pressure washing as mentioned above. Rinsing dirt off a surface will always be safer than wiping it off, regardless what soap you use.

IMHO, the "method", soap, or wash media you use after pressure washing is irrelevant. I've used them all: rinseless, waterless, 2BM, towels, MF mitts, BH brushes, sheepskin / wool mitts, etc... None of them inherently will cause scratches if they are of good quality and used with care.

Scratches come from wiping dirt off a dirty surface.
Click to expand...

:iagree: Well said my friend.:dblthumb2:
 
I don't think the rinsless was the issue here. "Blotting the water then buffing with a waffle towel" may be the culprit.

I've use Megs D114 with both sponges and with plush mc towels and have not had any issues. I have a dilution of D114 in a spray bottle.
I've used it as a spray and wipe, and I've used it (spray bottle) during a two bucket method to prime my dry towel, so that every MF or drying towel that touches the surface is moist with product. A swipe of the moist towel and let the air get what the towel didn't.

Again, the culprit may have been something as simple as the second pass of the waffle weave towel.
 
paul_g said:
I don't think the rinsless was the issue here. "Blotting the water then buffing with a waffle towel" may be the culprit.

I've use Megs D114 with both sponges and with plush mc towels and have not had any issues. I have a dilution of D114 in a spray bottle.
I've used it as a spray and wipe, and I've used it (spray bottle) during a two bucket method to prime my dry towel, so that every MF or drying towel that touches the surface is moist with product. A swipe of the moist towel and let the air get what the towel didn't.

Again, the culprit may have been something as simple as the second pass of the waffle weave towel.
Click to expand...

If your theory is correct, it would be easy to prove. Use a waffle weave on half the hood and a leaf blower on the other half and let the sun be the judge.
 
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