What's up with all these new super polishing liquids ?
- Thread starter DaC
- Start date
Klasse Act
Well-known member
- Feb 21, 2012
- 27,705
- 2,735
Mike Phillips
Active member
- Dec 5, 2022
- 51,004
- 7
I'll add my two cents...
I've been buffing out cars as long and in some cases longer than most on this forum. The Internet introduced,
More products from around the world to each person's individual location
More "new" products as the Internet levels the playing field enabling the entrepreneur to create and launch a new brand.
The above are two factors that have introduced new and better products to all of us.
Here's another little incident in history that spurred vast improvements in abrasive technology.
I was calling on body shops when body shops were converting over from spraying single stage paints to these new fangled basecoat/clearcoat paint systems and I'm here to tell you first hand the OLD compounds from before 1990 intended for use on single stage paints just plain didn't work on basecoat/clearcoat paints.
By the word work, I mean remove defects and leave a nicer looking finish.
I was a Rep/Trainer for Meguiar's when they reformulated and reintroduced #2 and #9 for use on modern basecoat/clearcoat finishes. In my collection of antique car wax memorabilia I still have the catalogs touting these products that were the best thing going back in the late 1980's and into the 1990's. This combo was referred to as,
The Hi-Tech Finesse Paint Polishing System
Clearcoat paint technology FORCED polish manufactures to improve their products because the customer base for body shops and detail shops were not happy with swirled out paint jobs after being buffed with compounds and polishes from the single stage paint days.
I was there. I lived through it. I've seen the improvements.
It's like my buddy Joe Fernandez aka Superior Shine once said,
It used to be you actually had to have some talent and experience to create a show car shine...
the reason for that was because the product we had to work with as compared to the products available to you guys today were not near as good. No where near as good.
So in context of the history of compounds and polishes, there have been HUGE improvements that benefit all of us.
I think I have an article about this somewhere?
At the end of the day, while it is good to discuss topics like this, what's going to matter at the end of the day is the performance of the product as it meets your needs and expectations.
Like I always say...
"Find something you like and use it often"
Carry on guys...
:dblthumb2:
I've been buffing out cars as long and in some cases longer than most on this forum. The Internet introduced,
More products from around the world to each person's individual location
More "new" products as the Internet levels the playing field enabling the entrepreneur to create and launch a new brand.
The above are two factors that have introduced new and better products to all of us.
Here's another little incident in history that spurred vast improvements in abrasive technology.
I was calling on body shops when body shops were converting over from spraying single stage paints to these new fangled basecoat/clearcoat paint systems and I'm here to tell you first hand the OLD compounds from before 1990 intended for use on single stage paints just plain didn't work on basecoat/clearcoat paints.
By the word work, I mean remove defects and leave a nicer looking finish.
I was a Rep/Trainer for Meguiar's when they reformulated and reintroduced #2 and #9 for use on modern basecoat/clearcoat finishes. In my collection of antique car wax memorabilia I still have the catalogs touting these products that were the best thing going back in the late 1980's and into the 1990's. This combo was referred to as,
The Hi-Tech Finesse Paint Polishing System
Clearcoat paint technology FORCED polish manufactures to improve their products because the customer base for body shops and detail shops were not happy with swirled out paint jobs after being buffed with compounds and polishes from the single stage paint days.
I was there. I lived through it. I've seen the improvements.
It's like my buddy Joe Fernandez aka Superior Shine once said,
It used to be you actually had to have some talent and experience to create a show car shine...
the reason for that was because the product we had to work with as compared to the products available to you guys today were not near as good. No where near as good.
So in context of the history of compounds and polishes, there have been HUGE improvements that benefit all of us.
I think I have an article about this somewhere?
At the end of the day, while it is good to discuss topics like this, what's going to matter at the end of the day is the performance of the product as it meets your needs and expectations.
Like I always say...
"Find something you like and use it often"
Carry on guys...
:dblthumb2:
Mike Phillips
Active member
- Dec 5, 2022
- 51,004
- 7
Here's something else to think about that's related...
I remember calling on HUNDREDS of body shops, dealerships and detail shops where the guys doing the buffing had never seen a foam buffing pad.
All they new was wool cutting and wool polishing pads and rotary buffers.
We have so many cool new products, pads and even tools available today that quite simply didn't exist 20, 15 and even 10 years ago.
I remember calling on HUNDREDS of body shops, dealerships and detail shops where the guys doing the buffing had never seen a foam buffing pad.
All they new was wool cutting and wool polishing pads and rotary buffers.
We have so many cool new products, pads and even tools available today that quite simply didn't exist 20, 15 and even 10 years ago.
Klasse Act
Well-known member
- Feb 21, 2012
- 27,705
- 2,735
Great post Mike!
Sent from my SPH-M930 using AG Online
Sent from my SPH-M930 using AG Online
Here's something else to think about that's related...
I remember calling on HUNDREDS of body shops, dealerships and detail shops where the guys doing the buffing had never seen a foam buffing pad.
All they new was wool cutting and wool polishing pads and rotary buffers.
We have so many cool new products, pads and even tools available today that quite simply didn't exist 20, 15 and even 10 years ago.
The sad thing of it is, most detail & body shops don't have a clue of the advances in machines & compounds.
I have personally worked in several & visited 20+ in the past couple of years. I never found a DA or any products that are even close to relevant.
I guess its kind of a good thing. Its probably what keeps a lot of Autogeekers in business.
DaC
New member
- Aug 11, 2011
- 855
- 0
- Thread starter
- #27
Thank you, I'm on it now.
Here's something else to think about that's related...
I remember calling on HUNDREDS of body shops, dealerships and detail shops where the guys doing the buffing had never seen a foam buffing pad.
All they new was wool cutting and wool polishing pads and rotary buffers.
We have so many cool new products, pads and even tools available today that quite simply didn't exist 20, 15 and even 10 years ago.
Thank you for posting Mike. Although I wasn't there on these big changes, I take your word for.
I pretty much agree on evolution of things, process, machines, products.... but maybe we are having a pace that is just too fast no matter what it takes....... maybe companies have found out something new lately on this field... but I find it hard to believe.
The problem with new products is that there is so much hype behind them it is ridiculous. People make it sound like the have reinvented the wheel in regards to polishes when they really aren't evolving. I'm also guilty of buying things solely based on the fact that they are new to the table and claim to be the best when there are just as good of products that have been out for much much longer and are proven performers. I think this applies to every aspect of detailing, not just the polishes.
I like Mike's words "find something you like and use it often".
I like Mike's words "find something you like and use it often".
Vegas Transplant
Active member
- Oct 11, 2011
- 4,447
- 3
DaC
New member
- Aug 11, 2011
- 855
- 0
- Thread starter
- #30
+1 on that.
But as claims go bigger and bigger... higher and higher... it is to expect the opposite arises.... and this topic is just that.... a moment to stop and think. :dblthumb2:
But man oh man! I already assured to get my Reflect / PF Finish.... Im the MAN
zmcgovern45
New member
- Sep 5, 2012
- 3,443
- 0
As someone who enjoys trying new products - especially the ones that "get all the hype" I'll weigh in a bit...
I have both SPF and Reflect. Both work very well IME. Reflect is without a doubt the easiest polish I have ever used in terms of wiping the product from the surface. CarPro states that Reflect only contains the necessary mineral oil to lubricate the polish and keep it from drying up during the working process, but the polish is extremely easy to remove with a product like CarPro Eraser. For this reason, they recommend Reflect as a great finishing step prior to applying a coating.
It has also been said that since SPF contains more oils that it may not be the best choice to use before a coating, however there have been many cases in which people have used SPF before a coating and have seen no immediate reason to believe the coating did not bond properly.
Did I notice a difference between the finishing ability of Reflect vs. SPF vs. M205 vs. OPT Hyper Polish vs. SF4500... no. At least not on "average", not black paint.
Certain polishes may excel in certain conditions... ie Sf4500 on Porsche Black paint has always been a go to combo for me because M205 just simply does not finish down as well on that soft of paint IME... but for the majority of the time, you could be perfectly fine with just something like M205 or OPT Hyper Polish.
As someone who operates a detailing business as a source of additional income, but mostly for the sake of being able to purchase bunches of new products without spending all of my income from my full time career, I will continue to purchase new "revolutionary" products as they are introduced. I understand that most of it is just hype, but that can be said about almost any consumer based product on the market... cars, electronics, etc.
I have both SPF and Reflect. Both work very well IME. Reflect is without a doubt the easiest polish I have ever used in terms of wiping the product from the surface. CarPro states that Reflect only contains the necessary mineral oil to lubricate the polish and keep it from drying up during the working process, but the polish is extremely easy to remove with a product like CarPro Eraser. For this reason, they recommend Reflect as a great finishing step prior to applying a coating.
It has also been said that since SPF contains more oils that it may not be the best choice to use before a coating, however there have been many cases in which people have used SPF before a coating and have seen no immediate reason to believe the coating did not bond properly.
Did I notice a difference between the finishing ability of Reflect vs. SPF vs. M205 vs. OPT Hyper Polish vs. SF4500... no. At least not on "average", not black paint.
Certain polishes may excel in certain conditions... ie Sf4500 on Porsche Black paint has always been a go to combo for me because M205 just simply does not finish down as well on that soft of paint IME... but for the majority of the time, you could be perfectly fine with just something like M205 or OPT Hyper Polish.
As someone who operates a detailing business as a source of additional income, but mostly for the sake of being able to purchase bunches of new products without spending all of my income from my full time career, I will continue to purchase new "revolutionary" products as they are introduced. I understand that most of it is just hype, but that can be said about almost any consumer based product on the market... cars, electronics, etc.
tuscarora dave
Active member
- Aug 21, 2009
- 5,408
- 12
Aaah...the great marketing machine hard at work.
As a youngster, working in a body shop I did get to see and use some of the old school crude compounds out there. You think there's rocks in a bottle nowadays Pffeeeew!!
Short of the introduction of harder, more finely milled abrasives I think most of what fuels the "revolutionary products" is the marketing machine itself. (as described in your above quoted comment)
The only thing I've seen that really changed things since I started doing this kind of work (just 5 years or so) was the introduction of Meguiar's microfiber correction system. Anyone here remember how ridiculous the hype behind the release of that system became? But what a concept, what a change indeed it did make for those who have embraced it and perfected it's use...
Now look at how many different outfits are offering microfiber buffing pads... Why? Well simply because they really do serve as a better way...for those who have worked through the learning curve.
Having written all that takes my mind back to the marketing hype surrounding the release of the Lake Country "One Pad System"...Does anyone here remember that system?:doh: :bolt:
As far as polymers and or filling oils go when considering a permanent or semi permanent coating afterward, I personally think I'd be fooling myself if I thought there were none of either present in any polish. I have personally tested and realized that a simple IPA wipe down at any dilution ratio is insufficient at removing the fillers and polymers contained in many different polishes, however a good effective degreaser seems to remove what a simple IPA wipe down won't.
I don't care what the manufacturer says, (including Optimum) I do a degreaser wash before any "long lasting" LSP is applied.
In closing, I think the marketing hype gets the product in one's hands, and the actual product's performance keeps the product selling.
DaC
New member
- Aug 11, 2011
- 855
- 0
- Thread starter
- #33
Great Posts guys! I'm with you Dave, it didn't took many cars for me to start raising IPA concentrations and doing a full wash + APC before IPA 30% and opticoat.... despite the 10% IPA claims from opticoat label.
And like you said, time will tell which products will stay... but in the mean time, it's good to know for real what you're dealing with.... but I hardly believe answers will come. :awman:
Either way, I have so far enjoyed this topic, a lot.
FUNX650
New member
- Dec 1, 2010
- 21,057
- 1
I realize that you said that the relationship between polishes, a clean surface to bond to and Coatings (Opti-Coat)
"kind of gets away from the topic"...yet proceeded to state: "but for me it matters as much".
So:
To be in line with your thread's subject matter (super polishing liquids):
I'd say to use the manufacturers' recommended products to "prep the surfaces you wish to Coat".
Will other prep-polishing-products (even some of the "super polishing liquids") accomplish what's needed
in order for a Coating to bond? Perhaps. Perhaps not, though.
To stray from their recommendations may not produce the results that are so advertised.
IMHO:
Instead of focusing on any alleged new breakthroughs for polishes,
their abrasives (sizes, types, etc.), their emulsion chemicals, and so on...
(True-Nano for the automotive industry may be around the corner...kind of expensive right now.)
Why not just use the comparative abrasive scale (CAS) for
the polishing products you're considering to use?
This will be after diagnosing, to the best of ones ability, the condition of the paint.
This diagnosis may include, but is not limited to:
-Will I need a compound/polish to remove sanding marks, holograms, swirls, scratches...
-Which 'grade of an abrasive' from the CAS will be needed to correct, for example:
800-1200 sanding/grit marks; 2500-3000sanding/grit marks...You get the picture.
Also...
As you well know, there are other factors that determine the abrasive-abilities
of a compound/polish...be they "super" or not!
1.) Application...by different machines; by hand
2.) Choice of the pad's abrasiveness (PPI, composition, size)...
IMO: Should match the polish's abrasive rating (ex: yellow/cutting; white/polishing)
3.) Machine Speed(s)...hand speed---might be a factor for Popeye.
-Speed on machine's dial (4, 5; 1200, 1800)
-Linear speed (inch per/sec)
4.) Downward force/pressure applied to a machine/pad/polishing-product combination
5.) Use of "supplemental lubricants":
-Water, mineral oil, baby oil, QD's, etc.
-Can increase polish/pad abrasiveness
-But may also interfere with a polish's need for a certain amount of frictional-heat in order to properly perform.
6.) Repeat polishing...
Some polishing abrasives need to be re-newed during a buffing cycle: You'll know it when you no longer see them.
7.) Heat produced from buffing
-Smaller pads concentrate heat
-Increases abrasiveness
8.) And other factors that Don't immediately come to mind
In closing I'll just make one special note:
The outer film-layer of paint (usually CC) should be preserved as far as possible.
Whatever compounds/polishes a person has determined should correct any blemishes on/in this precious
film-layer of paint should first be put through "The Test Spot"<<<(M.P.).
That will prove whether a paint-correction-diagnosis has been successfully rendered, using the predetermined products/pads/tools...
Gainful knowledge/experience in what a particular polish (again: "even super polishes")
claims to be/claims to do...Will, then: Surely be forthcoming.
The Finale (I promise):
I must say:
Polishing abrasives are generally on the small (micron) scale;
Sometimes I believe it's best not to sweat the small stuff!
Bob
DaC
New member
- Aug 11, 2011
- 855
- 0
- Thread starter
- #35
What if the "test spot" is lying to you ?
But you've made valid points about following manufacturer recommendations prior to using their coats, but on the other hand this would mean a fewer selection of products to use on that specific job...
CAS is nice.... but what if a compound states it'll cut 500 grit and finish like 5000 grit ? Seems pretty vague right ? This information is not enough to let us know how did it has achieved that. Was that really breaking down abrasives ? Was that filling or "durable filling" ? Is the shine produced really a "true shine", or is it something that will wash off sooner or later despite of impeccable maintenance ? You get the point.....
But you've made valid points about following manufacturer recommendations prior to using their coats, but on the other hand this would mean a fewer selection of products to use on that specific job...
CAS is nice.... but what if a compound states it'll cut 500 grit and finish like 5000 grit ? Seems pretty vague right ? This information is not enough to let us know how did it has achieved that. Was that really breaking down abrasives ? Was that filling or "durable filling" ? Is the shine produced really a "true shine", or is it something that will wash off sooner or later despite of impeccable maintenance ? You get the point.....
FUNX650
New member
- Dec 1, 2010
- 21,057
- 1
Who do you trust...
You and your: "Test Spot";
or, "Claims of Super-powers" from manufactures?
-What's wrong with having a limited amount of products that are designed for pre-Coating applications?
My time and monies are limited!
-To actually find out how a certain product, and its abrasives, can "cut" at one CAS...and "finish-polish" at another level of CAS:
Will usually turn out to be a fruitless adventure.
-Chemists/formulators have a much better grip on this subject matter.
However...
The Companies they work for are rather averse to having any such information being disseminated:
Especially amongst the Laypersons...A genre of which I happen to be a member.
As such:
Chemistry/Physics/Material Scientists-Laypersons can conjecture 'til the cows come home...mostly to no avail!
Bob
DaC
New member
- Aug 11, 2011
- 855
- 0
- Thread starter
- #37
Who do you trust...
You and your: "Test Spot";
or, "Claims of Super-powers" from manufactures?
-What's wrong with having a limited amount of products that are designed for pre-Coating applications?
My time and monies are limited!
-To actually find out how a certain product, and its abrasives, can "cut" at one CAS...and "finish-polish" at another level of CAS:
Will usually turn out to be a fruitless adventure.
-Chemists/formulators have a much better grip on this subject matter.
However...
The Companies they work for are rather averse to having any such information being disseminated:
Especially amongst the Laypersons...A genre of which I happen to be a member.
As such:
Chemistry/Physics/Material Scientists-Laypersons can conjecture 'til the cows come home...mostly to no avail!
Bob
Spot on Bob, that's why the answers I'm looking for, won't be answered... and this will end up going nowhere.... buuuut, at least we can gather together, try to share some experiences and concerns and "conjecture" a little, right ?
I can only trust on what my eyes see..... if there's something hiding the "truth" from it (despite of IPA wipe down), my test spot can't be trusted anymore, because this will lie to my eyes.
About products selection, because time and money is limited, being limited to a single line of products is not good... hypothetically: let's say you use opticoat, then you have to be attached to optimum's line.... which means you won't be able to try anything else.... if want to try cquartz, hell... you'll have to buy the entire line too.... or accept you'll only be able to try something else without expending a lot of money, once you run out of your current products........ and even worse, what if you don't like that particular line of "pre coat" products, what if they don't cover the full spectrum of paint types you might face ?............ that's why I think being limited to a small and restricted selection of products in order to use another one, is a bad thing.
Vegas Transplant
Active member
- Oct 11, 2011
- 4,447
- 3
Not to me.
You have to know that certain products will perform up to the manufacturer's claim if used with certain tools or pads.
I once read a post where Mike states that he has been known to use compound/wool/rotary only and finish out hologram free ~ LSP ready.
You have to know the limitations of the products in conjunction with tool, pad selection, and technique.
Another thing is that you have to decipher what the marketer is implying, and what they are purposefully not revealing when reading product marketing.
There's a product that will illustrate this point that I will post later. Gotta go vote local right now.
AutowerxDetailing
New member
- Apr 10, 2012
- 2,791
- 0
I've been using Reflect with the Flex @ ~3.5/4 + LC black flat foam. I have a bottle of HD Polish that Thomas gave me that I still need to try out! I hear nothing but great things about both of these products; both of which are supposedly "non-filling" polishes.