Advice for metallic black paint - Dealership Installed Swirls

brondondolon

brondondolon

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Advice for metallic black paint - Dealership Installed Swirls

Hows it goin? Im a new forum member and looking for some pointers.

Recently my 09 ram was serviced at a local dealership and when i got it back it seriously looked like it was washed with steel wool.

I went round and round with them and the only way to get them to fix it was to sue them...

So being as i take a ton of pride in my truck, washing it every week and waxing it every other week, and i know my way around a buffer i decided to tackle the job my self. However the results of 13 hours of work didnt meet my expectations.

At first the truck looked amazing but then once i washed it again all those scratches the dealer left in my paint were still there. Maybe i used the wrong products or didnt spend enough time idk.



Here are the steps i took and products i used:

wash (cheap autozone wash)
Clay bar (mothers clay bar)
rubbing compound with med foam pad on a circular buffer (meguires ultimate compound)
2 passes of swirl removed fine foam pad ( meguires #9 swirl remover 2.0)
glaze on a little orbital buffer with micro fiber pad (meguiars #7 show car glaze)
2 passes wax with little orbital buffer with micro fiber pad (meguiars black wax)

are there some steps i could take to shorten this process and a product recommendation for removing these clear coat scratches. its black paint so i cant be too aggressive with it because i dont want to leave ugly swirls

Thanks guys :)
 
Advice for metallic black paint

I would recommend Wolfgang or Optimum polishes. But, it's really in the technique. What machines do you have?
 
Re: Advice for metallic black paint

the buffer is a cheap harbor freight one with a 8" pad that only moves in a circular motion. it has variable speeds but i used the second lowest which id guess would be around 1200 rpm maybe less. Id love to get a new one but they are way over my budget.
 
Re: Advice for metallic black paint

I would use "ultimate polish" or "M205" after the "Ultimate Compound" on a Polish Pad. The UP would sub out #7 unless you wanted to hit it with that anyway just for fun. Maybe these guys can shed some light, but isnt "swirl remover" slightly less aggressive than "Ultimate Compound"? I never liked "swirl remover" on my black car. It just never did what I wanted it to do, especially when working by hand. However, M205 worked great, even by hand. I am picky about my car, one time when I lived at an apartment, the neighbor was air glazing a bath tub. Overspray shot out the window and rained down on my Tib. My car looked like the starry night sky from bumper to bumper.

Took it to a few detailers in my area, all said there was no way to get those small specks off. Well, one month later, 5 bottles of megs quick detailer and some really worn out fingernails later, I had it back to normal. No clay bars, clay towels, compounds, pads or any combo there of could get that crap off my car. Wet sanding worked, but I was like, "eff that dude". Common sense says, "dont sand a black hyundai" hahaha.
 
Re: Advice for metallic black paint

brondondolon said:
Hows it goin? Im a new forum member and looking for some pointers. Recently my 09 ram was serviced at a local dealership and when i got it back it seriously looked like it was washed with steel wool. I went round and round with them and the only way to get them to fix it was to sue them... So being as i take a ton of pride in my truck, washing it every week and waxing it every other week, and i know my way around a buffer i decided to tackle the job my self. However the results of 13 hours of work didnt meet my expectations. At first the truck looked amazing but then once i washed it again all those scratches the dealer left in my paint were still there. Maybe i used the wrong products or didnt spend enough time idk.



Here are the steps i took and products i used:

wash (cheap autozone wash)
Clay bar (mothers clay bar)
rubbing compound with med foam pad on a circular buffer (meguires ultimate compound)
2 passes of swirl removed fine foam pad ( meguires #9 swirl remover 2.0)
glaze on a little orbital buffer with micro fiber pad (meguiars #7 show car glaze)
2 passes wax with little orbital buffer with micro fiber pad (meguiars black wax)

are there some steps i could take to shorten this process and a product recommendation for removing these clear coat scratches. its black paint so i cant be too aggressive with it because i dont want to leave ugly swirls

Thanks guys :)
Click to expand...


I am guessing that you have a rotary from your posts....

If so you will need a more aggressive pad and compound of you want to remove those scratches..

The products that you have been using aren't aggressive enough and have fillers in them...

If it's a rotary then I would recommend Megs Burgundy pad using M105 to remove the scratches then follow up with M205 with Megs Yellow pad. However the Wool pad with M105 you be even faster then follow up with M205 and the Yellow pad.
 
brondondolon said:
Hows it goin? Im a new forum member and looking for some pointers. Recently my 09 ram was serviced at a local dealership and when i got it back it seriously looked like it was washed with steel wool. I went round and round with them and the only way to get them to fix it was to sue them... So being as i take a ton of pride in my truck, washing it every week and waxing it every other week, and i know my way around a buffer i decided to tackle the job my self. However the results of 13 hours of work didnt meet my expectations. At first the truck looked amazing but then once i washed it again all those scratches the dealer left in my paint were still there. Maybe i used the wrong products or didnt spend enough time idk.



Here are the steps i took and products i used:

wash (cheap autozone wash)
Clay bar (mothers clay bar)
rubbing compound with med foam pad on a circular buffer (meguires ultimate compound)
2 passes of swirl removed fine foam pad ( meguires #9 swirl remover 2.0)
glaze on a little orbital buffer with micro fiber pad (meguiars #7 show car glaze)
2 passes wax with little orbital buffer with micro fiber pad (meguiars black wax)

are there some steps i could take to shorten this process and a product recommendation for removing these clear coat scratches. its black paint so i cant be too aggressive with it because i dont want to leave ugly swirls

Thanks guys :)
Click to expand...

I've had similar problem with my old beemer. The UC plus with the correct foam pad, high speed DA and some pressure, that should remove if not all, most of the swirls. Hope this helps 😁
 
Re: Advice for metallic black paint

First, I'm really glad you found our forum and came here for help.


Can I ask you how you found AutogeekOnline.net?



brondondolon said:
At first the truck looked amazing but then once i washed it again all those scratches the dealer left in my paint were still there.
Click to expand...

This means one thing for sure, possibly two...

1. You didn't remove them during the correction step.

2. They're really deep.


If the swirls are really deep this is a crime against you and your truck.

Scratches are missing paint because the person doing the work used too aggressive and too caveman of products, pads and tools.

To remove the scratches you have to remove MORE paint.



Now follow me on this...


Factory clearcoat paints are thin. Typically thinner than a 3M Post-it Note.


Clearcoat_Paints_Are_Thin_01.jpg


Clearcoat_Paints_Are_Thin_02.jpg



So when a Dealership, a Bodyshop or a Detailer puts swirls into your car's paint either by how they wash it, wipe it or buff-it out they are NEEDLESSLY removing perfectly good paint because scratches are areas of paint that has been removed.



Now follow me even closer...

In order to remove the scratches you must level the paint until the top surface of the paint is level with the lowest depths of the deepest scratches.

Now you're removing MORE paint to fix a problem someone else caused to your car's already thin paint.

Paint is thin. All the factory UV protection is in the clear layer of paint. The more clear that is removed the less factory UV protection that is left to stabilize and protect the entire matrix of paint, (clear/base/primer/ecoat).

See page 2 of this article,

Beginning Clearcoat Failure



For the last 10 years I've described what's happened to you and your Ram Truck as a "Horror Story" but actually it's a crime because it's destruction of personal property.

Go around to several high end and custom body shops and get an estimate for a "good" paint job. For a truck like yours I'll guess $3000.00 will be on the LOW end.

I know you're a new member here so you probably haven't read my article on how to avoid this problem in the first place so I'll post it below for you and for everyone that will read this thread into the future.

Back to your dillema...



brondondolon said:
Here are the steps i took and products i used:

rubbing compound with med foam pad on a circular buffer (meguires ultimate compound)
Click to expand...

From you're description it sounds like you used,

  • Meguiar's Ultimate Compound
  • A rotary buffer
  • A foam "polishing" pad

As others have stated, you will need to get a more aggressive pad to remove more paint in order to level the top surface with the lowest depths of the scratches inflicted by the dealership.

Meguiar's Ultimate Compound is a very good compound, it's a cousin of M105 which when it was introduced raised the bar for abrasive technology. So the problem isn't the compound it's the likely you just need a more aggressive pad to work in conjunction with the compound to remove enough paint.


I always recommend doing a Test Spot to one area of a car to BE SURE you're getting the results you want, hope for and dream about before buffing out the rest of the car.

An option for situations like yours would be to chemically strip the Test Spot and then inspect in bright light to be 100% sure you've removed the swirls and scratches left by the dealership.

There's a bunch of ways/products listed in this article on how to chemically strip to inspect for accurate diagnosis.

How to Mix IPA for Inspecting Correction Results



You will still have swirls in the paint left by your rotary buffer/pad/compound but these should be uniform and not look like the swirls and scratches in a panel that you have not buffed. This is of course when doing a Test Spot to a vehicle that has not been 100% buffed out.

Since you've already buffed out 100% of this truck it's possible what you're seeing is,

1. The swirls and scratches caused by the dealership that you have not 100% removed.

2. The holograms you left in the paint from the use of the rotary buffer and the pads and products you're using.


Without being there or having really good pictures it's kind of hard to diagnose.

You could start a thread asking for the help of one of our stellar forum members that lives in your town to take a look at your truck's finish and help you troubleshoot the problem. To do this you need to,

A: Start a new thread.
B: Write a title that states what you need and where



The other thing you could do is to get a dual action polisher like a Porter Cable 7424XP/Meguiar's G110v2 or a Griot's DA Polisher and do what I call...

Change the action of the tool


That is go from a tool that only offers a single, one-direction rotating action to a tool that offers both rotating and oscillating actions.

Doing a Test Spot with a dual action polisher would not only help you to trouble shoot the problem but very likely fix the problem while removing the least amount of clearcoat paint and avoiding instilling any future holograms.


I'd recommend showing the dealership this thread and forcing them to pay for a professional detail to undo the damage they caused.


For reference...

How To Do a Test Spot


Please... anyone reading this into the future, before buffing out an entire car, especially if you're new to machine buffing or you're unsure of what you're doing or getting into, please start by doing a Test Spot and if you run into trouble, join our forum and start a thread describing the issues and we will help you.


Click here to join the largest and best online detailing discussion forum on the Internet... the friendliest too!



:)
 
Re: Advice for metallic black paint

:iagree:

With what Mike said. :xyxthumbs:
 
Wow, I am glad I found AG, this forum is fantastic. Great post Mike.
 
wow! through all my years of being on various forums i have never got such a detailed response like the one you just gave. thank you so much that was great! here are some photos of what it looked like before i detailed it. Please understand though that the scratches in the pictures look way worse in person and they are all over the entire truck including my headlights, tail lights, and glass... They made sure not to miss a spot....

damage1.jpg

^close up

damage2.jpg

^ rear fender


Im going to buff it again with a more aggressive pad. Given your experience, which particular pad should i use? I went at it with the least aggressive pad i could because since its a black truck i didnt want to have those ugly swirls all over the truck.

again thank you so much i appreciate it. Oh and i heard about this site just by going to google and typing "Best wax for black paint" it directed me here then i saw there was a forum as well. After coming back to this site here and there for over a month i decided to join since i love spending a whole day detailing my truck but dont have much experience with higher end detailing products and different techniques.
 
here are some pics of what it looked like right after i detailed it

detailed1.jpg


detailed2.jpg




and here are a few pics of just after an average sat wash/wax. the pics below that im posting were before the dealership molested my truck with god knows what....

IMAG0769.jpg


IMAG0759.jpg
 
Those aren't bad at all, more like holograms than anything else.

A DA polisher with a polishing pad and M205 would take those out from what it looks like in the photos.
 
brondondolon said:
wow! through all my years of being on various forums i have never got such a detailed response like the one you just gave. thank you so much that was great!
Click to expand...


Thank you for the compliment, I think you'll find the people on this forum both friendly and helpful...


Just a guess by looking at the pictures, but the scratches I'm seeing in the paint look like shallow holograms, possibly left behind after you buffed with the rotary buffer and the #9 Hi Tech Swirl Remover?

Now you say you have deeper scratches that don't show up in the pictures?

These would be what we call RIDS or Random Isolated Deeper Scratches, you can read about them here...



RIDS - The Definition of RIDS and the story behind the term...



RIDS = Random Isolated Deeper Scratches

RIDS
Random Isolated Deeper Scratches. These type of scratches come from normal wear & tear and there is no pattern to them. RIDS are like Tracers in that they are deeper scratches that show up after the shallow scratches have first been removed through a machine or hand buffing process, usually with a compound or paint cleaner. After the shallow swirls and scratches have been removed, any deeper scratches that remain will now show up like a Sore-Thumb to your eyes because there are no longer thousands of lighter, more shallow scratches camouflaging them.



These deeper scratches would have been inflicted by the guy washing the car.

When you buffed out the car you removed all the shallow scratches now these deeper scratches stand out like a sore thumb and bug you as do the holograms.

A dual action polisher will remove the holograms and to be honest, you might want to learn to live with the deeper scratches as removing them means removing more and more precious thin clear coat.

Then your truck might suffer clear coat failure. See page 2 of the clearcoat failure thread I already linked to in a previous post.


And if you like this forum, share us with your car buddies... that's called win/win.



:)
 
jankerson said:
Those aren't bad at all, more like holograms than anything else.

A DA polisher with a polishing pad and M205 would take those out from what it looks like in the photos.
Click to expand...



That's what it looks like to me too...


It's not always possible to finish out 100% hologram free using only a rotary buffer. I think I have an article about that somewhere?


:xyxthumbs:
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
That's what it looks like to me too...


It's not always possible to finish out 100% hologram free using only a rotary buffer. I think I have an article about that somewhere?


:xyxthumbs:
Click to expand...

You do. :xyxthumbs:

You have an article about everything. :dblthumb2:

I could fix that up in a few hours, maybe 4 on the outside most likely depending. :D
 
On the RIDS....

Mike is correct, you can reduce them, but don't try and remove them all 100% because you will thin out the clear too much...

My Jeep has RIDS in it, but just have to live with the worst ones, hardly noticeable anyway.
 
Yeah like i said the pictures dont do it justice unfortunately. The initial pictures displaying the scratches are deeper in person and they go in sweeping motions which would rule out damage done by a buffer and this was the damage that the dealership did when they just washed it. After i posted this i emailed my insurance company requesting the pictures that they took which are way better then the ones i took with the camera on my phone. It was hard to get good pics for me because the light had to hit it just right and even then only small areas were visible until you move.

After i buffed it and everything then washed it for the first time the scratches were still there but not nearly as bad.
 
brondondolon said:
Yeah like i said the pictures dont do it justice unfortunately. The initial pictures displaying the scratches are deeper in person and they go in sweeping motions which would rule out damage done by a buffer and this was the damage that the dealership did when they just washed it. After i posted this i emailed my insurance company requesting the pictures that they took which are way better then the ones i took with the camera on my phone. It was hard to get good pics for me because the light had to hit it just right and even then only small areas were visible until you move.

After i buffed it and everything then washed it for the first time the scratches were still there but not nearly as bad.
Click to expand...

I still believe a DA would solve most of the problem and would remove the holograms and they are there while you were at it. :xyxthumbs:
 
ok ill look into that. Also just so we are all on the same page the second post with the 4 pics were not of any scratches the first two of the 4 are to show what it looked like right after i tried to correct the scratches and the two below those are to show what it looked like before the dealership scratched it. To be honest what i think they did was took a hose hosed it down (no soap) and wiped it down with a crappy rag.

i ordered a couple products and i intend on tackeling the job once again to remove the scratches entirely. correct me if im wrong but heres how i plan on doing the job.

2 passes with ultimate compound on my rotory buffer low rpm so i dont burn the paint but what would be a good pad to use

ultimate polish at a little higher rpm then with the compound with a foam polishing pad

chemical guys blacklight with micro fiber mini orbital buffer

2 coats chemical guys XXX wax by hand with micro fiber pad

what do you guys think? the scratches that are in there now are not nearly as bad as they originally were and would prob not even be noticeable after a good wax but it bugs me knowing they are there.
 
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