Has anyone ever measured how much polishing removes?

So Mike- since you're in here.

What say you? Could thinner-than-a-post-it-note clear be polished using a light polish like Menzerna SF4500 or even Meguiars UP or equivalent more than a dozen times with no ill effects? (Assuming annually polishing for a long time).
 
Great Post by Mike Phillips:

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...sanding-marks-griot-s-rop-wolfgang-twins.html

Post #10 has a summation of the resulting diminished thickness of the clear coat after each step

If you check out the link quoted by allenk4, it mentions that most manufacturers say that 0.5 mil of clear coat can safely be removed. If you look at Mike's results in post #10 of the same thread noted in the link above, the entire process of sanding, swirl removing and polishing removed on the average 0.5 mil of clear coat. Removing swirls and polishing removed about 0.1 mil of clear coat. Assuming you remove 0.1 mils of CC everytime you remove swirls and polish, you could only do this 5 times for the life of the vehicle before you get into an unsafe situation.
 
My GMC is 17 years old, I never took a reading so I don't know what I started with or what it may be now.
I'll say this, I've compounded it many, many times and polished it with m205 even more times and the paint is still rich looking.
I know that's not saying much or even close to helping you with your question but thought I say just how much this truck has been polished.
I put 500-700 miles on it each week so it takes a beating plus I do all my testing on new products using the truck.


My black RAV which is SS paint has been 205'd to death. Lol
She looks better than she did in 09' when I bought her:dblthumb2::
 
^ And this is the problem I have- two conflicting ideas! Hahaha.

The reason why I ask this (since the 'real' answer is with an EPTG) is, I don't want to be polishing yearly, then 5 years down the road realize I can't polish anymore and helplessly watch as micromarring and scratches build. I'd rather polish it once every 2 or 3 years, instead. Then one final, good polish/compound when I sell it.
 
Hi Romans,
The way I read this and various other related threads, I'm afraid no one can confidently give you the answer you want with the certainty you want.

There are too many variables, too many unknowns.

Maybe a reasonable plan would be:

Light polish at 1 year
Light polish at 2 years
Light/medium polish + coating at year 3

lather. rinse. repeat.
 
As SR99 mentioned, there are many variables. Such as the amount of aggressiveness in products, pads and machines used, etc.

If you look at Mike's results, in some instances there was no change in mils after using the Finishing Glaze. Which could mean that less than 0.05 mils were removed in the polishing phase alone.

Assuming 0.05 mils were removed when polishing alone, then it could safely be done 10 times. The less aggressive the method the more times it can be done.
 
Some people tell me paint lasts 5-7 years and I just don't buy it.
^^^Me neither!!...There's "The Law of Decay" to consider.^^^

And Dr. G (a paint Chemist) of Optimum Polymer Technologies states the half-life is 5 years.
My calculations below brings that to ~15 years total service life...
with having had, at the very least: the minimum care/maintenance.

A "new word of the day" (and it's 'associates') for 07.19.2012:

Half-Life

Definition:
-The Theory of Radioactive Decay (and Growth)…"The Law of Decay"
-The time required for one-half of a radioactive element to decay
- A process for a way of quantifying how fast the decay of a radioactive element is occurring
(the whole/complete decaying process would, in principle, take forever to complete)
-This "half-life decay" results in a change of the original radioactive element
into another element called: "the daughter element".
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Poisson Distribution...after French mathematician Siméon Denis Poisson:
-In Probability Statistics: A distribution that represents the number of events
occurring randomly in a fixed time at an average rate


____________________________________________________________________________________________________


Gaussian Distribution...after German mathematician and physical scientist: Johann Carl Friedrich Gauss.


In probability theory, the normal (or Gaussian) distribution is a continuous probability distribution,
that has a bell-shaped probability density function,
known as the Gaussian distribution-function---the "Bell Curve", (with its 6-Sigma assignments).
[Further put to use by W. Edwards Deming in some of his SPC-teachings…
including world-wide OEM vehicle manufacturing]



An application of the "Bell Curve" per the following AGO thread (and others on the same subject):

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/22805-professional-detailers-list-2.html



____________________________________________________________________________________________________

John Napier: A Scottish mathematician, physicist, astronomer and astrologer:
Known as the discoverer of logarithms and the common usage of the decimal point in mathematics.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________


Now, it may be asked: What does this have to do with 'Detailing', so to speak?

AS such:
-I have been quite intrigued ever since I read the posting (#36),
by 'Optimum Polymer Technologies' Dr. G...in Largebore’s following thread,
and decided to brush-up/do-a-little-research on the subject matter:

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/52781-dr-ghodoussi-where-s-beef-4.html

In part, Dr. G states…

"Obviously you have brought up a great question that has generated a good deal of discussion already.
There are several different factors that are discussed here
and I throw in my $0.002 by starting off with the UV question..."

"First let me point out that waxes and/or sealants do not block UV light
unless there are UV absorbers that are effectively incorporated in the formula.
Additionally, automotive UV absorbers which are very durable,
have a 5 year half life, meaning that every five years
the concentration is reduced by 50% percent."

"The UV absorbers we use in the Optimum Car Wax are the same as those in the clearcoat paint.
The testing we did is an ASTM standard test for automotive paint."
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Disclaimer:
The following is in no way, form, or fashion an attempt to discredit/discount Dr. G's statements.
Just curiosity on my part…Nothing else!!
____________________________________________________________________________________________________


Being that I’ve always associated the term:
half-life... with radioactive elements and their atomic-structure;
and, automotive paint’s life being defined in terms such as:
life-expectancy over the course of vehicles’ service-life ;

I am, then, proposing the following questions/postulates/points-of-view:

Questions:
1. Are clear-coat paint (CC) formulations, radioactive, in and of themselves?
2. Are any of the UV absorbers/inhibitors (let’s call them 'protectors'), radioactive, in and of themselves?
3. Does the addition of these UV protectors to CC paint mix/formulations result in a radioactive paint-product?
4. Will CC paint with UV-protectors, when exposed to UV-A/B rays become radioactive,
or more radioactive (taking into consideration: questions 1,2,3 above)?
5. Are "daughter elements" the result of CC paint 'decaying'? Are they radioactive?
6. Is radioactive-decay...random by nature.


Postulations:
1. CC paint/UV-absorbers, in their totality (properly engineered/applied/cured);
and, as such, are to be considered as: an element/atoms…are radioactive.
2. UV-rays exposure (as determined by Dr. G’s patent-approved: QUV ASTM G-53 test method)
will affect the life-cycle of the element/atoms: "CC/UV-protectors’ed" paint.
3. "Daughter Elements" are oxidation/CC-failure personified…They are not radioactive.
4. Elements/atoms decay randomly
5. The hallmark of a scientific theory is not what it seems to explain, but rather what it predicts.


Points-of-View:
-Since half-life has been specified as a process of quantifying how fast radioactive decay/growth occurs;
and, with Dr. G alluding to CC paint’s UV-absorbers having a half-life of 5 years;
it would seem to follow that the remaining UV-absorbers then should have:

A: 2 ½ years half-life, etc., etc---(5)+(2 ½)+(1 ¼)+(5/8)+(5/16).......

So, in theory, (and being this is a linear-decay representation), the total life
of CC paints’ UV-absorbers should be at least 10 years: (x = 5(yrs)….....n!)


-But this how we expect elements/atoms to behave! That, however is not the case.
There are limits to what we may logically deduce,
and the science/physics that govern: "The Laws of Decay".

I believe that one must take into consideration that the: "initial speed of decay" will,
as Newton predicted, "slow down"…not be a true linear-decay, as it were.

-Instead, and because of decay "slowing down" from its initial decaying-speed,
the "time constant" should be factored into the half-life equation.

This is what’s known as: The Mean-Life
the defined average-life-expectancy of radioactive elements/atoms.


Without going into too great mathematical depths…

The mean-life equals the half-life divided by the natural logarithm of 2...(0.693)…{RE: John Napier}

Besides, IMO, this fact simplifies the mathematics of: 'growth and decay'. It also quantifies such an everyday idea
as the average life expectancy of an element/atoms {RE: Poisson}:

A Poisson Distribution Chart:





This same principal applies to the growth of the "daughter-elements": oxidation/CC-failure...(inversely, though)...




-To me, then, it can be theorized/assumed that the mean-life of the element/atoms: "CC/UV-absorbers" would be:

Half-life of 5yrs/0.693 = ……………………………7.215yrs; plus (+)

7.215/2 = 3.6075
Half-life of 3.6075yrs/0.693 = ………………….5.2056yrs; plus (+)

5.2056/2 = 2.6028
Half-life of 2.6028/0.693 = ……………………….3.7558yrs; plus (+)

WHOA!!! Wait a minute!...
We’re already way over the stated 10 years life expectancy of CC/ UV-absorbers!!
____________________________________________________________________________________________________


What does this mean then (if anything)?.....(I’ll try to touch on a few points I thought of):

-When the new car salesman says: "You don’t ever have to wax your car---it’s got CC".
Is this true?
-If a person were to just keep their new vehicle clean: by utilizing proper vehicle-washing techniques…
Will their vehicles’ CC paint-film last the estimated: >15 years?

-Doesn't abrading the CC paint-film reduce the half-lives of CC/UV_absorbers?
If so, how much removal of CC, by abrasion processes, is acceptable in the half-life theme of: CC/UV absorbers preservation?
Except for 'deemed CC correction'...Why do "abrasion" at all, or ever?

-Does the application of waxes/sealants- LSP’s extend the half-lives of CC/UV-absorbers?
a. How long (years) will a person 'keep' a vehicle
b. Re-sale value
c. Personal preferences of their vehicles' appearance

-Does this in any way answer LargeBore’s initial thread-starter question; i.e. "Scientific evidence"…and…
Will the urban myth, brought up by LargeBore, that applications of LSP’s: will '‘protect' CC paint...finally be put to rest?

-If CC/UV-absorbers are radioactive...Should Dr. G amend his statement/explanation about half-life?
If not radioactive...Is the: "Law of Decay", then, still applicable?


In Conclusion:
-Personally I believe that I'll keep my vehicles as clean as possible;
lightly polish the CC paint-films with products
such as cleaner-waxes/3M Imperial Hand Glaze, or their ilk;
and apply a spray wax such as Dr. G's: Optimum Car Wax (OCW)...
until I decide to incorporate a Coating into my "processes".


Of course; and, without a doubt:
That coating will be,
from none other than Dr. G,
Down in Tennessee!!

-Also...For those that did...Thanks for taking the time to read this rather protracted posting of mine.

-And, as always: Thoughts anyone??

:)

Bob
 
Great discussion guys...


Here's the big picture....


If you have a car with swirls and scratches and you buff it out to remove all but the RIDS in the case of a daily driver, then AFTER you buff it out treat the car in a way so that you don't have to ever do the Major Correction Step again.

That is anytime you "touch" the paint, be it washing, drying or wiping with a spray detailer, waterless wash or rinseless wash, do it in a way that is careful, thought-out and using the highest quality products you can obtain.

It is what it is.... by that I mean, the paint you have is what you have and only paying for new paint job will change that so take what you have, polish it to your satisfaction and then start taking careful care of of it.

I cover this in my how to book under the section on washing a car BEFORE you buff it out and how to wash a car AFTER you wash it out. It's some of the most elementary and simple information related to the entire industry of car detailing but also the most important.

It's all about how paint is touched...


:)
 
Bob,

I've wondered about some of Dr.G's claims. NOT that I think he's wrong. I just think he sometimes simplifies things, to the point of using the wrong term. He's also claimed that Opti-Coat is clearcoat paint. But I don't think it is. I think it ACTS LIKE clear coat paint, but I don't think it is ACTUALLY paint. It certainly doesn't apply like paint!

So I bet his half-life comment has a lot more to do with trying to 'keep it simple', than to actually be accurate. My $0.02!

Mike,

It will be cared for well- I think! I've read your book, and I've been on these forums for a short while now. The dealer did not prep my car, and it'll be washed using a rinseless wash, 2 bucket method, or waterless wash using premium products bought from PBMG! I wanted to hit it with SF4500 first just to make it 'pop', followed by a good sealant and then wax (I may consider a coating later). So it will never need a 'major correction step' (I hope!). The only damage so far has been after this last storm. The car is parked outside, and was covered in ice, snow, and slush. As it melted and slid off of the car, it left behind a few light scratches. If that is going to be an annual occurrence, then springtime polishing could also follow- that's the idea behind my questions. Essentially, dirty snow on top of dirty/rigid ice sliding across a dirty car must be every bit as bad as a dirty cheap sponge with cheap car was soap scraping across the dirty car!
 
Bob,

I've wondered about some of Dr.G's claims. NOT that I think he's wrong. I just think he sometimes simplifies things, to the point of using the wrong term. He's also claimed that Opti-Coat is clearcoat paint. But I don't think it is. I think it ACTS LIKE clear coat paint, but I don't think it is ACTUALLY paint. It certainly doesn't apply like paint!

So I bet his half-life comment has a lot more to do with trying to 'keep it simple', than to actually be accurate. My $0.02!
That's why, in my above posting, I attempted to "un-simplify" your below 'concern' about paint's life.
Some people tell me paint lasts 5-7 years and I just don't buy it.

Hope I was successful! :D

Bob
 
That's why, in my above posting, I attempted to "un-simplify" your below 'concern' about paint's life.

Hope I was successful! :D

Bob

Ah okay!

Well that makes sense. I think 5-7 years has been my experience for uncared for paint, (my in laws don't even wash their cars, and tend to get clearcoat failure around then). But in my experience, just keeping them clean and a little wax on them (all I've ever done prior to AGO), a 14 year old car like the one I just sold has zero clearcoat failure! A few rock chips and probably scratches; but no clearcoat failure!
 
I'm confident you're going to do just fine.


This topic comes up often enough that these are great questions and a great discussion.


:)

Thanks, I appreciate it!

So I guess I'll continue a regimen of 'doing it right', followed by annual light polishing in late spring to get rid of any scratches instilled by snow and ice, and keeping layers of sealant and wax on top!
 
I've "polished" my BMW so many times I've lost count. Just like Mike said, I did one major correction, and have handled it with care since. Occasionally I'll have to hit a spot with TSR on a polishing pad, but it hasn't been necessary to use anything stronger than an ultra fine finishing polish on a finishing pad to keep it looking almost perfect since. The awesome combo for me now is the Rupes 15 with their Ultra Fine Diamond Finishing Polish on their white pad.

Unlike some fine finishing polishes, this "combo" actually can remove some light defects and finishes stunningly perfect. I chalk it up to the machine (Rupes 15) and it's stroke, the fact that the polish seems "polymer heavy" (how I describe it - work time is LONG), and the technique of using a little bit of downward pressure on the Rupes 15 for the first few passes. I believe Rupes' polishes are DAT/SMAT (going from memory here) and that seems to me the best of both worlds.

The paint still measures in the 140 microns.
 
I've "polished" my BMW so many times I've lost count. Just like Mike said, I did one major correction, and have handled it with care since. Occasionally I'll have to hit a spot with TSR on a polishing pad, but it hasn't been necessary to use anything stronger than an ultra fine finishing polish on a finishing pad to keep it looking almost perfect since. The awesome combo for me now is the Rupes 15 with their Ultra Fine Diamond Finishing Polish on their white pad.

Unlike some fine finishing polishes, this "combo" actually can remove some light defects and finishes stunningly perfect. I chalk it up to the machine (Rupes 15) and it's stroke, the fact that the polish seems "polymer heavy" (how I describe it - work time is LONG), and the technique of using a little bit of downward pressure on the Rupes 15 for the first few passes. I believe Rupes' polishes are DAT/SMAT (going from memory here) and that seems to me the best of both worlds.

The paint still measures in the 140 microns.

Converting microns to mils:
25.4 microns = 1 mil
140 microns = 5.5 mils

Appears to be a fair amount of paint.

I got this from one of Todd Helm's post:

"Modern paint systems start with a primer/etcher that is applied over the substrate (body panel). Increases in body panel manufacturing have lead to thinner and thinner layers of primer. On most modern cars the primer is .3 to 1.5 mils thick. On older vehicles a thicker primer was used to hide the inconsistencies in the panels.

The primer seals the substrate from the environment (preventing rust or oxidation). After the primer has been applied the body panel is given color by the base coat (often referred to as the color coat). The base coat is usually flat or semi-gloss in nature. Again with modern paint systems the tendency has been to limit the thickness of the base coat; just enough is applied to ensure even and consistent color. The base coat can range in thickness to just over .5 mils to 1.5 mils in thickness.

If the paint is a pearl, candy, or metal flake some base coats may have flake or pearlizer mixed into them . Other paint systems may receive additional layers of flake or pearlizer on top of the base coat to add this effect. The thickness of these extra coats can vary wildly by manufacturer but most often range between .3 mils and .8 mils thick.

The upper most paint layer is the clear coat. Clear coat is a clear (pigment-less) paint that is responsible for the UV protection of the layers underneath it, as well as the gloss and shine of the paint. When we polish modern paint systems we are actually polishing the clear coat. The clear coat varies in thickness from approximately 1.5 mils (thin) to 4 mils.


Typical Thicknesses
Primer: .3 - 1.5 mils
Base (color) coat: .5 - 1.5 mils
Specialty coats (optional): .3 - .8 mils
Clear coat: 1.5 - 4 mils


How thick is a mil exactly?

A mil is a standard unit of measurement meaning one thousandth of an inch, or .001 of an inch. In other words, it would take 1000 mils to make an inch.

Paint is also measured in microns, which is a metric unit of measure meaning 1 millionth of a meter. There is approximately 25.4 microns in 1 mil."
 
Polishing, Waxing, AIO-ing is fine with an Orbital. Rapid paint corrections over the long haul is detrimental and a cause for concern! I always warn customers for OEM finishes you can only get so much from the appearance. It doesn't matter if 10 or 25% of the top of clear coat can be removed, just be wise and understand more removal = more danger.

Joe @ Superior Shine had a good post about this eons ago:
How much paint are you removing.
 
In the case of my 2.5rs, I removed nearly 10 microns after correction. But this was EXTENSIVE correcton. Generally 1-3 microns on most jobs.

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