For stripping.... Dawn or dedicated paint cleaner?

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shagnat

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Which would you guys recommend to clean the car down to the clear coat?

Dawn or a dedicated paint cleaner (one that AG carries)?
 
There are many threads on this subject here on the forums, including input from Mike P. Also very knowledgeable and authoritative posts by PiPuk. Search for those and you will find a wealth of information. The consensus as I read it was that Dawn or other strong soaps will probably not remove an LSP; a paint cleaner is needed. Per those other threads, differing opinions abound however.
 
Hard to answer this either way without getting gouged at. Yes, Dawn works fine out of a foam lance, yes it removes lsp's. I don't like it because it leaves tremendous residues, just something else I have to fool around with.
 
dawn will not strip a durable sealant that is in good shape, it will strip some waxes, and leave surfactants on the surface that will make it look like the surface is stripped...

bottom line is dawn doesn't always cut it, a paint cleaner will.
 
I was also under the impression that Dawn would strip everything.
Definitely not the case, even after 2-3 full dawn washes, there was still sealant to be found.

After doing some digging around, a good clay and polish will definitely clean it right up.
Thats my plan for spring.
 
My question is I am going to use iron x this spring on my truck, I have collinite 845 and a base of jet seal 109, will the iron x strip the lsp? Or will I need a cleaner if some kind.:buffing:
 
Never seen any real proof that Dawn can remove waxes, coatings or sealants. Leave it in the kitchen ....
 
IronX should since it's pulling out all the grime and road junk and fall out. I would wash it and get all the loose dirt off, IronX then polish the car.
 
inDetail said:
IronX should since it's pulling out all the grime and road junk and fall out. I would wash it and get all the loose dirt off, IronX then polish the car.
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Thanks can't wait for spring, I see you hail from South Jersey.:buffing:
 
As others have said, there is little real evidence that dawn strips. There is even less scientific reason to think it would. On the other hand, it is easy to show how it can make it APPEAR to have stripped when a residue is the actual cause and this is entirely in keeping with the chemistry of the product.

It is great that so many AGers now realise this and shows daft myths can be dispelled!
 
shagnat said:
Which would you guys recommend to clean the car down to the clear coat?

Dawn or a dedicated paint cleaner (one that AG carries)?
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I tend to do both as a matter of principle.

Step #1- Dawn Ultra wash, or any solution that I know would clear top-level grime and break down the LSP. I have seen my vehicles move from beading to sheeting after a Dawn wash. I will touch on the residue theory in a moment.

Step #2- Clay - remove any remaining grime and pick up any embedded contaminants that any wash will not be able to do on its own. If there is any residue from Step #1 it will definitely be lighter than an LSP and the clay bar's useful life (in theory) is extended. Also, consider someone that does not have a dishwasher..... they clean their dishes with Dawn Ultra and a sponge...... rinse them and dries them by either wiping or simply air drying..... what happens next????? Yep, those humans dare to put food on a dish with Dawn residue on them. With this in mind, if there is a residue layer then those humans are consuming it. Would anyone dare to consume an LSP? Now back to supporting my working theory above in blue.

Step #3- Paint cleaner, pre-wax cleaner, or polishing step. Whatever is in your process.
 
mwoolfso said:
I have seen my vehicles move from beading to sheeting after a Dawn wash. I will touch on the residue theory in a moment.
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After so many years of being told Dawn (or any dish soap) will strip LSPs I found it hard to beleive the truth that they don't.

So I did my own test--next time you do a Dawn or Ajax wash and experience the sheeting (or what appears to be the lack of any LSP) dry an area, give it a IPA wipe down and then spray water on the surface---magically the beading is back.

The dish detergent leaves behind surfactants that cause the water to sheet thus the appearance the LSP has been removed and the IPA wipe removes them allowing the LSP to again cause beading.

I even tried it with the original CG Citrus Wash (designed to strip LSPs) and had the same result.

Here's a thread that discusses the subject in depth http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/66896-lsp-stripping.html

So paint cleaner or light polishing is the only way to assure the LSP is removed. Although no one has commented on products such as Griots Paint Prep as to it's affectiveness. I'd like to give that a try at some point.
 
ski2 said:
After so many years of being told Dawn (or any dish soap) will strip LSPs I found it hard to beleive the truth that they don't.

So I did my own test--next time you do a Dawn or Ajax wash and experience the sheeting (or what appears to be the lack of any LSP) dry an area, give it a IPA wipe down and then spray water on the surface---magically the beading is back.

The dish detergent leaves behind surfactants that cause the water to sheet thus the appearance the LSP has been removed and the IPA wipe removes them allowing the LSP to again cause beading.

I even tried it with the original CG Citrus Wash (designed to strip LSPs) and had the same result.

Here's a thread that discusses the subject in depth http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/66896-lsp-stripping.html

So paint cleaner or light polishing is the only way to assure the LSP is removed. Although no one has commented on products such as Griots Paint Prep as to it's affectiveness. I'd like to give that a try at some point.
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Superb work. It is so easy to prove to yourself. The counter argument to what you did is those who argue that your paint is beading because the lsp is gone but the surface is ultra clean. Unfortunately this exposes another issue - oil residues. Many people compound and polish with oily emulsion abrasives. When done, the paint beads. Thus, the paint beads like a fresh lsp when totally clean - right? Not quite. Often it is actually beading so strongly because there is residual oil on the surface, from their polish/compound. I have never seen refurbished paintwork, when fully clean, bead anything like the same degree as with a good lsp.

With regards to surfactant residues and the potential for ingestion. Yes, it exists. Those in the industry would point you to the numerous studies and regulations which cover and define which chemicals are safe to be used in this application because this is almost unavoidable. Keep in mind that we are talking tiny tiny levels. You would ingest much more by getting bath water in your mouth or using toothpaste.
 
Toxix said:
I was also under the impression that Dawn would strip everything.
Definitely not the case, even after 2-3 full dawn washes, there was still sealant to be found.

After doing some digging around, a good clay and polish will definitely clean it right up.
Thats my plan for spring.
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That was what I thought too, that Dawn might be a little harsh but at least it would get the job done. I had some Collinite 476 on there(on top of some CG EZ Creme Glaze, which I think made it an even harder surface) and I had a devil of a time taking it off with successive washes of Chemical Guys citrus wash and Dawn.
 
peter hurcos said:
That was what I thought too, that Dawn might be a little harsh but at least it would get the job done. I had some Collinite 476 on there(on top of some CG EZ Creme Glaze, which I think made it an even harder surface) and I had a devil of a time taking it off with successive washes of Chemical Guys citrus wash and Dawn.
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You should definitely read some of the other threads. The most obvious question you should ask is how dawn can be safe for your skin but it is supposedly able to remove the advanced (and dramatically more durable) relatives of silicones which body shops traditionally have found almost impossible to remove.

I would go as far as saying that no sealant worth talking about should be able to be stripped by a single application of any water dilutable cleaner, sold to the detailing market, at a dilution of more than 10:1 (consider that a dawn wash is 100s:1). I would go further to say that many cleaners would not strip a decent sealant when applied neat.

The above is true for all the sealants we make and testing has shown the same for comparable products. So if your sealant truly can be removed by a single dawn (or other high dilution product) wash, then you need a new sealant.

That is what it boils down to, either Dawn (and similar) are not actually stripping, or the LSPs being used are rubbish. There really isn't a third option.
 
ski2 said:
After so many years of being told Dawn (or any dish soap) will strip LSPs I found it hard to beleive the truth that they don't.

So I did my own test--next time you do a Dawn or Ajax wash and experience the sheeting (or what appears to be the lack of any LSP) dry an area, give it a IPA wipe down and then spray water on the surface---magically the beading is back.
Click to expand...

OK, I will do that. I certainly don't mind being corrected as I will do anything to save time and energy.
 
Good to see so many people taking on board the concept of residual surfactant films. I tried to introduce this concept on other forums and no one paid attention to it so it is a compliment to AG and the contributors that it has been read, understood, tested and proven by some of the membership.

Any stripping test must take special care to remove all these residues. A quick wipe with an IPA soluton (as above) will do it. The general contrary argument is that IPA will strip (which often it won't) and that the return of beading is down to the paint being clinically clean. The latter point is one which I have started to address and is another instance where I believe the products are fooling the users. Much of the time, people will polish away and then pour some water on it. The water will bead and run off and hence it is concluded that clean paint behaves this way. Unfortunately, this is not clean paint. This procedure will result in low volatility oils being left on the surface (similar to the surfactant argument) and we all know that oil and water repel each other. So, much of the time, what someone is seeing when they do this test is an oil covered surface being hydrophobic, not the clean paint itself.
 
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