LSP Layering: Let's break em' down.

BlueBeast14GT

BlueBeast14GT

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I have been at this for a year or so now, and I am still unclear on all the rules of layering. I've been looking at this post by Mike Phillips,

The Difference Between a Cleaner/Wax and a Finishing Wax



it's a great reference, but doesn't cover everything I'm looking for.

I know a wax cannot be topped with a sealant, and the wax should be removed before applying sealant. And I know sealants can be layered. I am not sure about adding more wax to an older layer of wax; would I need to remove the original? And I have no idea what the rules are for hybrids. Can they be layered? Can I top a hybrid with a sealant, or vice versa? Where do hybrid sprays fit in?

I have a million other questions, but this is the third time I've started over writing this thread because it keeps getting huge. So can someone please clarify the rules for layering, especially on the hybrids? And then I'll ask about anything that is still unclear. I would really appreciate the help. Thanks!

Also, I think it would really help for clarity's sake if we stick to the terminology in Mike's thread (linked above), so we're not specifying "all natural wax, not synthetic", "synthetic wax, not carnauba", etc. etc. every time.
 
I think that applying like on top of like shouldn't be a problem. After that, it gets more complicated.
 
I don't layer, but I do top. Meaning my Honda Element has Megs Ultimate Wax (which is really a sealant) as its LSP, but I keep it topped off by giving it some Megs Ultimate Quik Wax. I figure they are designed to work together, and the chemists at Megs know better than me what combinations work and which don't.
 
Layering?
Don't get me started..But glad you asked!!

•First though:
What is your definition of "layering"...
Is there any actual film-building occurring---(I'll call it "stacking"...like a deck of cards)?!

•Secondly:
Rules?
What Rules?
Who/Whom sets "Layering Rules" in stone?

•Third-most:
How is it you are able to "know" that the types of LSPs you listed will or will not layer...Scientifically, empirically, anecdotally, etc.? TIA.


Bob
 
No scientific postulates or theories regarding quarks or leptons here. Here are my rules regarding layering:


You can add a pure wax over a synthetic sealant that is cured. Anything else you are just mixing up products on the surface.

If your surface starts out with wax X, and you want/need to renew wax X, just wash the car and apply another coat of wax X. However, you will reach a point where the vehicle will benefit from stripping it all and decontaminating the surface with Iron X/clay/paint cleaner.

Don't layer hybrids on top of sealants - unless said hybrid was designed to be layered atop a sealant by the manufacturer in a synergistic manner. An example of this are the Pinnacle Black Label combos or the BF Fire over Ice.

The whole point of using a hybrid is the sealant is built in. You are likely decreasing it's lifespan by placing it on top of some other sealant that the hybrid's sealant component likely will not bond to.
 
My rule is to never layer or top anything unless it's within the family of products. That way I know there are no compatibility issues or surprises.
 
01GreyStangGT said:
I think that applying like on top of like shouldn't be a problem. After that, it gets more complicated.
Click to expand...

FUNX725 said:
Layering?
Don't get me started..But glad you asked!!

•First though:
What is your definition of "layering"...
Is there any actual film-building occurring---(I'll call it "stacking"...like a deck of cards)?!

•Secondly:
Rules?
What Rules?
Who/Whom sets "Layering Rules" in stone?

•Third-most:
How is it you are able to "know" that the types of LSPs you listed will or will not layer...Scientifically, empirically, anecdotally, etc.? TIA.


Bob
Click to expand...

Holy s*** dude... lol

First
What is film building? When I think of layering I think of
a. apply an LSP, let it cure, apply another layer
b. apply an LSP, let it cure, apply a different product, like wax over a sealant
c. using a product like a spray sealant to maintain a layer of LSP

Second
I don't know what rules, that's what I'm asking. Maybe rules was a bad word choice. I want to know what I can layer with what and have it actually work. Like for some reason you can't do a sealant over a wax. I don't know why, it's just what I have gathered from reading the boards.

Third.
Are you just screwing with me?


swanicyouth said:
No scientific postulates or theories regarding quarks or leptons here. Here are my rules regarding layering:


You can add a pure wax over a synthetic sealant that is cured. Anything else you are just mixing up products on the surface.

If your surface starts out with wax X, and you want/need to renew wax X, just wash the car and apply another coat of wax X. However, you will reach a point where the vehicle will benefit from stripping it all and decontaminating the surface with Iron X/clay/paint cleaner.

Don't layer hybrids on top of sealants - unless said hybrid was designed to be layered atop a sealant by the manufacturer in a synergistic manner. An example of this are the Pinnacle Black Label combos or the BF Fire over Ice.

The whole point of using a hybrid is the sealant is built in. You are likely decreasing it's lifespan by placing it on top of some other sealant that the hybrid's sealant component likely will not bond to.
Click to expand...

Ok, thank you, this makes a lot of sense. What about something like Optimum Spray Wax? I just discovered that is a hybrid, but I know a lot of people use it to maintain a variety of sealants, not just those produced by Optimum.
 
My advice is to not over think it so much and just roll. If it works, it works, if not you can always apply other things. Mix and match, have fun, don't worry about what works with what. I wouldn't have found so many fun combos if I just stuck by the "book" so to speak....
 
cleanmycorolla said:
My advice is to not over think it so much and just roll. If it works, it works, if not you can always apply other things. Mix and match, have fun, don't worry about what works with what. I wouldn't have found so many fun combos if I just stuck by the "book" so to speak....
Click to expand...

This is what I go by for the most part.

My practice:

- I never put more than two layers of any LSP and it's always the same stuff, i.e. 2x coats of Klasse SG or 845. I just don't see the point.

- I do use toppers like Meg's UQW or Sonus Glanz. I like the little extra boost in the shine they offer. I used to try and keep them "in family" until I saw how much better the UQW results were than Glanz. Now, all bets are off and I'm going to play the role of the mad chemist as I hunt for the "best" product.
 
BlueBeast14GT said:
First
What is film building?
Click to expand...
I likened it to the indvidual cards (a card creating a "layer")
that make up a deck of cards: The stack gets "thicker"...

I ask:
Is that possible when applying another film-layer of an LSP?

BlueBeast14GT said:
Second
I don't know what rules, that's what I'm asking. Maybe rules was a bad word choice. I want to know what I can layer with what and have it actually work.

I don't know why, it's just what I have gathered from reading the boards.
Click to expand...
So the answer is primarily anecdotal.

BlueBeast14GT said:
Third.
Are you just screwing with me?
Click to expand...
No.

Bob
 
cleanmycorolla said:
My advice is to not over think it so much and just roll. If it works, it works, if not you can always apply other things. Mix and match, have fun, don't worry about what works with what. I wouldn't have found so many fun combos if I just stuck by the "book" so to speak....
Click to expand...

Desertnate said:
This is what I go by for the most part.

My practice:

- I never put more than two layers of any LSP and it's always the same stuff, i.e. 2x coats of Klasse SG or 845. I just don't see the point.

- I do use toppers like Meg's UQW or Sonus Glanz. I like the little extra boost in the shine they offer. I used to try and keep them "in family" until I saw how much better the UQW results were than Glanz. Now, all bets are off and I'm going to play the role of the mad chemist as I hunt for the "best" product.
Click to expand...


Reply to both: I like this advice! I mean, I would like to avoid wasting product, and it would suck if I put in a bunch of effort and had it not work. But on the other hand, I started doing this because I enjoy it. That's why I want to try a variety of products, so I like the idea of playing "mad chemist" and mixing and matching them to see what they can do.
gAzfYjr.jpg

ok, maybe not that mad
 
FUNX725 said:
I likened it to the indvidual cards (a card creating a "layer")
that makeup a deck of cards: The stack gets "thicker"...

I ask:
Is that possible when applying another film-layer of an LSP?


So the answer is primarily anecdotal.


No.

Bob
Click to expand...

Ok, I think I get what you're saying now with the card thing. I'm still not sure how to answer you on any of this though...
 
I think the main thing is that if you decide you want to play around with layering, whatever combination you use may not work, but even if doesn't, it won't damage your 'stang's paint. It's not like you would be combining two different products that would turn into acid. The only net effect is that it may not last as long or look as good as you hoped. Not sure how anyone actually measures the effectiveness of layering anyway. How much of it is just a placebo effect, i.e. more is better?
 
trekkeruss said:
Not sure how anyone actually measures the effectiveness of layering anyway. How much of it is just a placebo effect, i.e. more is better?
Click to expand...

I was actually wondering this myself. I look for beading, and how long it lasts, but they're pretty subjective tests.
 
cleanmycorolla said:
My advice is to not over think it so much and just roll. If it works, it works, if not you can always apply other things. Mix and match, have fun, don't worry about what works with what. I wouldn't have found so many fun combos if I just stuck by the "book" so to speak....
Click to expand...

:iagree: 100%!! Just have fun!! I still have 6 more jars of wax I need to try!!!! I put wax on top of sealant and have no issues.
 
What have you tried so far, and how did it turn out?

What are your objectives?
 
dlc95 said:
What have you tried so far, and how did it turn out?

What are your objectives?
Click to expand...

Not much really. I haven't layered any waxes over sealants. I've used Meg's Ult Liquid and Paste. For maintenance I've used Meg's Ult QW, Optimum Spray Wax, and a couple others I can't recall. I recently tried some QW from Lucas that was surprisingly fantastic. As soon as I have a free weekend I'm going to do a full detail and seal it with Chemical Guys Blacklight that I have been dying to try. Might have to get some V7 to top it since they are supposed to be like PB&J.

The only really bad result I have had was when I used Meg's Wash & Wax Anywhere, just to test it out. It actually turned out really nice. But then after the next wash I used the Optimum and it streaked and left a hazy film all over the place. And honestly, I didn't think the Optimum spray was all it's cracked up to be. It was okay, but I didn't think it looked like anything special, and it didn't seem to hold up that well. I know it's just a spray wax, but people seem to rave about it.

My objective is just to make it look great. I would like to have a nice layer of protection, but this time around I'm going for a topper that will make the blue really pop.
 
Last edited:
Good discussion going here.... just to add some more info to chew on....


This thread on topping... explains if to do it and how to know before investing time....


Topping - Definition - How to Top also called Topping

Has some cool pictures in it from the old days....




I put a little time into writing this one... it refers to, The Law of Diminishing Returns by Thomas Robert Malthus and his work

"Essay on the Principle of Population"
(published in 1798)


Sacrificial Barrier Coating = The purpose of a wax or synthetic paint sealant



:)
 
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