Is a paint cleanser necessary if you aren't going to polish?

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randomevent

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When I clay/decon a car, I've always polished the car before applying sealant/wax. Even if it's just an AIO. Since I have been under time constraints lately, I've been considering simply doing doing a wash/decon/sealant routine. However, as I've never attempted this "simpler" route before, I stumbled across paint cleansers.

Can someone tell me whether or not I will benefit from paint cleansers if I choose not to polish? If so, can you recommend good paint cleansers? Hopefully ones that I can use by hand.

From everything I've seen, people apply paint cleansers with a DA. I'd prefer not to use my Flex unless I'm going all in with paint correction. Since I don't have a garage, trying to find the blocks of time to do a full correction is almost impossible. So I'd at least like to give my paint the best effort that I can without polishing for the time being.

With those constraints in mind, my best efforts would seem to be: pre-wash/wash, then decon/clay, then paint cleanser, and finally sealant/wax. Does this sound right?

Thanks everyone.
 
randomevent said:
With those constraints in mind, my best efforts would seem to be:

pre-wash/wash,
then decon/clay,
then paint cleanser, <-- Use a fine cut polish instead - same time and energy
and finally sealant/wax.

Does this sound right?
Click to expand...


Most paint cleaners, also called pre-wax cleaners, are only light chemical cleaners, that is they don't do much if any correction work, i.e. remove swirls and scratches.

They remove previously applied waxes and sealants, surface impurities, light oxidation and road film. They get the surface clean which is an excellent way to prep the paint for the application of a wax or sealant.


Here's my take....

It takes the same amount of time to machine apply fine cut ot ultra fine cut polish and you'll get all the benefits of use a paint cleaner PLUS remove some fine swirls and scratches.

So for the time, energy and investment, I opt to use a fine cut polish. Just make more sense... at least to me...



:)
 
I understand you wanting to do a quick clean up before waxing/sealant. Using a hand applicator is easier than dragging out the polisher, extension cord and having to wash the pads. And if your like me, spend hours trying to polish out every swirl and rids. There are a lot of good paint cleaners including Pinnacle, Blackfire, Sonax and P21s.
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Most paint cleaners, also called pre-wax cleaners, are only light chemical cleaners, that is they don't do much if any correction work, i.e. remove swirls and scratches.

They remove previously applied waxes and sealants, surface impurities, light oxidation and road film. They get the surface clean which is an excellent way to prep the paint for the application of a wax or sealant.


Here's my take....

It takes the same amount of time to machine apply fine cut ot ultra fine cut polish and you'll get all the benefits of use a paint cleaner PLUS remove some fine swirls and scratches.

So for the time, energy and investment, I opt to use a fine cut polish. Just make more sense... at least to me...



:)
Click to expand...

Thanks, Mike. Is there a fine cut polish you would recommend? I feel like using one of my go to AIO's if I did decide to actually break out the Flex, but I'm up to try new products. Normally i use Optimum Poli-Seal or Auto Finesse Tripple. I've also tried XMT 360, but found it didn't work well for me on VW paint.

Rsurfer said:
I understand you wanting to do a quick clean up before waxing/sealant. Using a hand applicator is easier than dragging out the polisher, extension cord and having to wash the pads. And if your like me, spend hours trying to polish out every swirl and rids. There are a lot of good paint cleaners including Pinnacle, Blackfire, Sonax and P21s.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I was actually looking at the P21s. Does anyone have experience using these by hand? Or is DA the way to go as well?
 
randomevent said:
Thanks, Mike. Is there a fine cut polish you would recommend? I feel like using one of my go to AIO's if I did decide to actually break out the Flex, but I'm up to try new products. Normally i use Optimum Poli-Seal or Auto Finesse Tripple. I've also tried XMT 360, but found it didn't work well for me on VW paint.



Thanks! I was actually looking at the P21s. Does anyone have experience using these by hand? Or is DA the way to go as well?
Click to expand...

P21s can be applied by hand and has some fillers. Poli-Seal and Tripple are great AIO's.
 
Rsurfer said:
I understand you wanting to do a quick clean up before waxing/sealant. Using a hand applicator is easier than dragging out the polisher, extension cord and having to wash the pads. And if your like me, spend hours trying to polish out every swirl and rids. There are a lot of good paint cleaners including Pinnacle, Blackfire, Sonax and P21s.
Click to expand...

Faster when doing an entire car?

Where are you "dragging" your polisher out of?
 
AF tripple is what I would use and you already have it works ok by hand too
 
MattPersman said:
AF tripple is what I would use and you already have it works ok by hand too
Click to expand...
^^^This^^^...Or: One of your other AIOs.

Follow up with one of your Auto Finesse Waxes
for, hopefully, an incremental increase in the
sacrificial barrier arena.

Bob
 
randomevent said:
Thanks, Mike. Is there a fine cut polish you would recommend?
Click to expand...

Any of the reputable brands you see me use on the show cars we work on here at Autogeek in this forum would work.... keep in mind, some of these cars are worth a lot of money...


Pictures from Autogeek's Car of the Week


My point was that if you're going to buzz around your car by machine, then might as well use a real polish versus a paint cleaner. Better results, same amount of time and work.


I can't compute working by hand....


:D
 
Didn't want to make a new topic, so hopefully some responds to this.

I forgot that I got some Meguiars's White Wax at Target on clearance a few months ago, so I'd like to use it on my wife's GTI next week. Do you guys think I need to bother with a paint cleanser, since it's an technically an AIO? I don't see the need for it, but maybe someone else will educate me otherwise.

I'm planning to use the White Wax with HT Tangerine pads. Also, I plan to use Power Lock as a LSP, if that matters.
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Any of the reputable brands you see me use on the show cars we work on here at Autogeek in this forum would work.... keep in mind, some of these cars are worth a lot of money...


Pictures from Autogeek's Car of the Week


My point was that if you're going to buzz around your car by machine, then might as well use a real polish versus a paint cleaner. Better results, same amount of time and work.


I can't compute working by hand....


:D
Click to expand...

Mike I'm interested in your responses as it does make sense to me but the part I'm stuck on is: with a polish you have to fully break it down otherwise you will be wiping abrasives over the surface with your towel upon removal, where with a pure paint cleaner wouldn't you be able to do less passes and get the job done quicker if that is all that is needed? In turn making it much quicker. Especially for us GG6"/PC7424 users.
 
randomevent said:
Didn't want to make a new topic, so hopefully some responds to this.

I forgot that I got some Meguiars's White Wax at Target on clearance a few months ago, so I'd like to use it on my wife's GTI next week. Do you guys think I need to bother with a paint cleanser, since it's an technically an AIO? I don't see the need for it, but maybe someone else will educate me otherwise.

I'm planning to use the White Wax with HT Tangerine pads. Also, I plan to use Power Lock as a LSP, if that matters.
Click to expand...

if you're going to use white wax just remember it's an AIO and and will not be as effective as a dedicated paint cleaner to clean the paint (and leave it bare) since it's going to add some protection. you could still top it, but if you're wanting to maximize and clean the paint thoroughly, then skip the AIO and use a dedicated paint cleaner/polish and then apply your lsp...
 
EVOlved said:
Mike I'm interested in your responses as it does make sense to me but the part I'm stuck on is: with a polish you have to fully break it down otherwise you will be wiping abrasives over the surface with your towel upon removal, where with a pure paint cleaner wouldn't you be able to do less passes and get the job done quicker if that is all that is needed? In turn making it much quicker. Especially for us GG6"/PC7424 users.
Click to expand...

That is one of the beauties of using a SMAT product vs DAT. SMAT don't have to go thru the 'breakdown' process to fully achieve the desired results.

When doing just a quickie (not that best word there) polish, one doesn't have to do a bunch of passes. Light pressure, polishing pad zoom zoom, and you're done.

Bill
 
EVOlved said:
Mike I'm interested in your responses as it does make sense to me but the part I'm stuck on is:

with a polish you have to fully break it down otherwise you will be wiping abrasives over the surface with your towel upon removal,

where with a pure paint cleaner wouldn't you be able to do less passes and get the job done quicker if that is all that is needed?

In turn making it much quicker. Especially for us GG6"/PC7424 users.
Click to expand...

Wow great questions.... shows you're really thinking....


To get the answer, let's take a look at what I wrote and recommended in my first reply to this thread, note the parts that are in bold text...

Mike said:
Here's my take....

It takes the same amount of time to machine apply fine cut to ultra fine cut polish and you'll get all the benefits of use a paint cleaner PLUS remove some fine swirls and scratches.

So for the time, energy and investment, I opt to use a fine cut polish. Just make more sense... at least to me...
Click to expand...


I don't like to assume but sometimes I do as not assuming makes me have to type a whole more words to go into detailing about really common sense stuff to me and most on this forum.

Assuming a person is using high quality products,

By the words high quality I in context of compounds and polishes I mean good abrasive technology.

By the word product I mean a Fine Cut Polish or an Ultra Fine Cut polish.​



Then assuming a person is using either a high quality fine cut polish or ultra fine cut polish, then working the product for multiple, multiple passes in order to break down the abrasives isn't necessary.

I think in my how-to book I recommended making 4 section passes when using polishes in these categories.

Now if a person is just,

Cleaning up the paint before waxing


Then you wouldn't have to work small sections like if you were compounding. In fact I'd take on half a hood at one time, make a few passes and move on and have no fear of leaving scratches because I didn't break down the abrasives by machine or because I inflicted scratches when wiping the residue off by hand because the abrasives were not broken down first by machine.

I think when it comes to quality products, breaking down the abrasives is not as much of an issue as people think it is. For example, when you feel a quality fine cut or ultra fine cut polish between your fingers you're not going to feel anything. Nothing. Now if a person is using cr_p for products then they're already losing the battle.


I think when people "think" on this topic and the read the words,

break down the abrasives

There's an automatic picture in their minds eye of rocks in a bottle and that's just not so and not what I'm talking about when I talk about using quality products.

When I first worked with Wayne Carini's guys all the cars had swirls. I switched them over to Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover and Advanced Finishing Polish for the steps after compounding and now all the cars they buff out look great. You see Marius posting pictures of his work and the results look fabulous. These are high quality products and they are also products I use on a lot of the show cars that go through our shop.

I only use products I trust on the car I buff out on my own and I only use quality products on the cars that come through the AG garage.

So in summary, "yes" I can buzz around a car by machine using a high quality fine cut or ultra fine cut polish just as fast as I could using a paint cleaner or pre-wax cleaner and actually do a much better job of creating a beautiful finish since the polish will do more to improve car paint than a simple paint cleaner.


Nothing wrong with paint cleaners but once you're in-the-know, why use a paint cleaner when you can get the same results or better by using a fine cut polish by machine in the same relative time.


Good question...

I hope my way of thinking and what I practice myself makes sense...



:)
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Wow great questions.... shows you're really thinking....


To get the answer, let's take a look at what I wrote and recommended in my first reply to this thread, note the parts that are in bold text...




I don't like to assume but sometimes I do as not assuming makes me have to type a whole more words to go into detailing about really common sense stuff to me and most on this forum.

Assuming a person is using high quality products,

By the words high quality I in context of compounds and polishes I mean good abrasive technology.

By the word product I mean a Fine Cut Polish or an Ultra Fine Cut polish.​



Then assuming a person is using either a high quality fine cut polish or ultra fine cut polish, then working the product for multiple, multiple passes in order to break down the abrasives isn't necessary.

I think in my how-to book I recommended making 4 section passes when using polishes in these categories.

Now if a person is just,

Cleaning up the paint before waxing


Then you wouldn't have to work small sections like if you were compounding. In fact I'd take on half a hood at one time, make a few passes and move on and have no fear of leaving scratches because I didn't break down the abrasives by machine or because I inflicted scratches when wiping the residue off by hand because the abrasives were not broken down first by machine.

I think when it comes to quality products, breaking down the abrasives is not as much of an issue as people think it is. For example, when you feel a quality fine cut or ultra fine cut polish between your fingers you're not going to feel anything. Nothing. Now if a person is using cr_p for products then they're already losing the battle.


I think when people "think" on this topic and the read the words,

break down the abrasives

There's an automatic picture in their minds eye of rocks in a bottle and that's just not so and not what I'm talking about when I talk about using quality products.

When I first worked with Wayne Carini's guys all the cars had swirls. I switched them over to Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover and Advanced Finishing Polish for the steps after compounding and now all the cars they buff out look great. You see Marius posting pictures of his work and the results look fabulous. These are high quality products and they are also products I use on a lot of the show cars that go through our shop.

I only use products I trust on the car I buff out on my own and I only use quality products on the cars that come through the AG garage.

So in summary, "yes" I can buzz around a car by machine using a high quality fine cut or ultra fine cut polish just as fast as I could using a paint cleaner or pre-wax cleaner and actually do a much better job of creating a beautiful finish since the polish will do more to improve car paint than a simple paint cleaner.


Nothing wrong with paint cleaners but once you're in-the-know, why use a paint cleaner when you can get the same results or better by using a fine cut polish by machine in the same relative time.


Good question...

I hope my way of thinking and what I practice myself makes sense...



:)
Click to expand...

Makes sense Mike, thanks for spending your time responding.
 
You can also use a product like Prima Amigo or Optimum GPS that will give you some of the cut of a fine polish - along with the glazing component of most paint cleaners.

Amigo is like the perfect product for this.
 
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