Paint Cleaner before sealant

Hi all,


Mike Phillips said:
Common bit of confusion there.... a paint cleaner is an either/or type product. You either use a paint cleaner to prep paint before applying a non-cleaning wax or sealant or you polish the paint but you don't do both.
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So if you clay (if needed) and polish to get rid of defects that you won't need a cleaner before sealing/waxing?

Mike Phillips said:
<SF 4500 is an Ultra Fine Cut Polish
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But when doing research on the difference between SF400 & SF4000 that SF4500 left oils (or something) that would need to be removed.

So I'm curious about a scenario where using a true cleaner would be working backwards or negative. And it seems that at least some polishes would need either an AIO or a cleaner before the LSP.

~~~

FWIW I've tried Poor Boys, and Meg's 105 -202. I'm sticking with Menzerna FG-400 SF4000 for polishing (so for me my above question is moot, I'm just curious). If no corrections are needed then Sealing Wax APO 60. LSP Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0 and maybe a wax.

So I guess that my Wolfgang Polish Enhancer was a wasted purchase.


TIA
 
sparkism13 said:
Thanks for clearing this up.

So with that being said, would a fine polish with chemical cleaners in it be even better?
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I don't know if there's a good answer for that?


The thing is... "we" can only affect the surface and to some degree into the paint depending upon the paint.

The bigger picture is that if you are abrading the surface, even a tiny little bit... you're removing a portion of the surface, (even a tiny little bit), and thus whatever was "on" the surface will have been removed. So a chemical cleaner in a quality fine cut or ultra fine cut polish would be redundant at this point. It couldn't hurt but it simply wouldn't be needed and it's affect would have to be taken into consideration by the chemist as to how it would affect or interact what's taking place on the abrading and polishing side plus the cost of including it - especially in light of if it's not needed in the first place.


:)
 
yinzer said:
Hi all,

So if you clay (if needed) and polish to get rid of defects than you won't need a cleaner before sealing/waxing?
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Nope. It's a redundant step. I think I mentioned already but if not here goes again.... lots of confusion over this topic.

If you polish the surface it is CLEAN. A paint cleaner won't make it any more clean. All "high quality" paint polishes not only leave the surface clean but leave it clear and that's key when working on a clear coat finish. A high quality polish restores clarity by removing defects that cause opaqueness to the clearcoat. A chemical only paint cleaner can't do this. So in most cases, and actually probably in 99.9% of all cases, you'll get better results appearance-wise, (for the same amount of time and energy), to use a fine cut or ultra fine cut polish instead of a paint cleaner.



yinzer said:
But when doing research on the difference between SF400 & SF4000 that SF4500 left oils (or something) that would need to be removed.
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More confusion here....

The point of polishing paint is to make it LOOK GOOD. Polishing oils buffer the abrading action so you don't simply SCOUR the paint. So polishing oils are a GOOD THING.

As far as removing them goes, that's ONLY if the LSP you're going to use specifically states that the paint surface must be chemically stripped before use. So you need to read the directions for the LSP you're going to use and then you'll know if you need to chemically strip the paint.

Besides that ALL Menzerna polishes use polishing oils and that's a good thing.



yinzer said:
So I'm curious about a scenario where using a true cleaner would be working backwards or negative. And it seems that at least some polishes would need either an AIO or a cleaner before the LSP.
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Whether applying a true or "dedicated paint cleaner" AFTER using a high quality polish would be working backwards would depend on if the paint cleaner was high quality or not. Some are... some are not. The Wolfgang Paint Polish Enhancer is a very high quality paint cleaner but using it after already having polished the paint would be a redundant step.


yinzer said:
FWIW I've tried Poor Boys, and Meg's 105 -202. I'm sticking with Menzerna FG-400 SF4000 for polishing

(so for me my above question is moot, I'm just curious).
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No problem. I've been posting to the forum world since 1994 and very often the forum member asking questions is doing it for completely hypothetical reasons.

:laughing:


yinzer said:
If no corrections are needed then

Sealing Wax APO 60. --> A cleaner/wax or as some like to say an AIO or All-in-One (same thing)

LSP Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0 --> A Finishing or Show Car Synthetic Paint Sealant (no cleaning action)

and maybe a wax. --> referred to as "Topping" (I have an article on this)
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yinzer said:
So I guess that my Wolfgang Polish Enhancer was a wasted purchase.


TIA
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Well it's a very high quality paint cleaner so it's a top notch product but if you already have a quality fine cut polish then you don't need it.

You could still use it on other cars or like this forum helps people learn about how to correctly detail their cars, show a friend how to correctly detail a car and explain to them that after claying, instead of simply applying a wax to first use a paint cleaner to get better results.

That's win/win.

Then if they're interested or get the detailing bug share our forum with them.


:props:
 
A while back I e-mailed Sonax about their premium paint cleaner( the one w/o protection) being used prior to PNS re: bonding. I was assured there would be no problem. I think a little brand synergy is always helpful.
I also think something geared toward sealants like AF Tough Prep could be used universally.
 
hi guys! noob here :D

Got a probably a couple of dumb questions here but here it is anyway...

I wash my car, clayed it, compound it, polish it do i need paint cleaner before i apply a let say an acrylic base sealant?

and is there an alternative to a commercial paint cleaner that i can use? around here theres not much of paint cleaner products .... Feed back please

Thanks in advance....my car btw is 2010 chevy cruze black...
 
JimShey said:
hi guys! noob here :D

Got a probably a couple of dumb questions here but here it is anyway...

I wash my car, clayed it, compound it, polish it do i need paint cleaner before i apply a let say an acrylic base sealant?

and is there an alternative to a commercial paint cleaner that i can use? around here theres not much of paint cleaner products .... Feed back please

Thanks in advance....my car btw is 2010 chevy cruze black...
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Do an IPA wipe to make sure you clean up the polishing oils. Other than that, no need for a paint cleaner because you just cleaned it with compounds and polishes.
 
I understand the logic of not using a paint cleaner after polishing but why not before hand. I like paint cleaners and am frequently impressed by how much dirt then pull from the paint. Therefore why not use the extra step to remove as much dirt from the paint before any mechanical polishing starts i.e. stop the dirt from joining the polishing interface
 
I think that could done. But on my part I just want to make sure there are no chemical residues (i.e. oils, wax etc) left from the compounds that I have used before applying an acrylic base sealant(which I believe is water base). I'm just afraid the sealant might not bind well. I dunno if the industry has progress so much that you can now effectively put water base chemicals over oil base chemicals. Im no chemist...hehehe...I just want to make sure the surface is clean from chemical residues that might hinder the binding of my acrylic sealant... cheers :)
 
Thanks Mike for the good info. So the only time a paint cleaner would be used to remove polishing oils is if applying a coating?

Say for example I polish a car with Meguiar's M205 to remove swirls and what not. Would you recommend to follow with something like Detailer's Pro Prep Polish rather than using IPA followed by the LSP?
 
JimShey said:
I think that could done. But on my part I just want to make sure there are no chemical residues (i.e. oils, wax etc) left from the compounds that I have used before applying an acrylic base sealant(which I believe is water base). I'm just afraid the sealant might not bind well. I dunno if the industry has progress so much that you can now effectively put water base chemicals over oil base chemicals. Im no chemist...hehehe...I just want to make sure the surface is clean from chemical residues that might hinder the binding of my acrylic sealant... cheers :)
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Usually the Sealant manufac. would inform you if such step is required.

You could use IPA, Carpro Eraser, Geyon Prep etc. if you are really adamant about it though.
 
Lowejackson said:
I understand the logic of not using a paint cleaner after polishing but why not before hand. I like paint cleaners and am frequently impressed by how much dirt then pull from the paint. Therefore why not use the extra step to remove as much dirt from the paint before any mechanical polishing starts i.e. stop the dirt from joining the polishing interface
Click to expand...
Preventing dirt from joining the polishing process would mean using it before polishing not after. Unless using Klasse AIO before Klasse Sealant Glaze (since they are a system) or similar process, a paint cleaner is overkill (a disorder many detailers suffer sometime). Mike Phillips and others use a ver, very fine polish (think Menzerna SF4500) in place of a chemical paint cleaner. There is an article over this.
To be clear, the use of a very fine polish does not mean you have to finish with it, if you finished with any polish it would be okay, but a very fine polish is just barely abrasive to clean the paint. Perfect for if you aren't leveling the paint and just laying down a new lsp.
Paint cleaners have their place, but this post is too long as it is coming from my phone so I'll shut up.
 
I now use Duragloss 601 Bonding Agent.
It will remove any oils from the paint, also acts as an adhesive so to speak.
Great product.

Apply it to the paint but don't buff it off, then apply your sealant over it, let it cure then buff off.
The 601 does a good job in cleaning the paint.
 
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