Has Modern Compounds and Finishing Polishes Made Medium Cut Polishes Obsolet?

[Zubair]

Is the end near for medium cut polishes? Lets use Menzerna as an eg. FG400 cuts and finishes well and SF4000 cuts less but decently and finishes superb. One can see how they would complement each other.

FG400 Cut 9 Gloss 7
PF2500 Cut 5 Gloss 7
SF4000 Cut 4 Gloss 10

If one needed more cut than 4000 but not as aggressive as 400 they could just use 400 on a pad with less cut? Your thoughts?

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I don't know that medium cut polishes are obsolete, but for the most part the 3-step correction (compound, medium polish, fine polish) of yore is. Today it can easily be done with only two steps, as you have noted. This is mostly due to advances in abrasive technology, but partly also pad and machine technology/understanding.

 

[FUNX650]

IMHO:
"The Test Spot" can usually determine what type/category of abrasive product(s)...if any...are needed to "correct" the paint, faster than I can speculate on the demise of what someone may call a "medium polish".

Bob

 

[Zubair]

Correct Setec, no need for a medium polish to include in a multi step where a compound is used, one only needs 2 polishing steps with modern abrasives.

 

[Paul A.]

I have about half a shelf of those "middle" polishes i grab for certain jobs that can be corrected almost to perfection and don't need a compound (yet!). A good example is an older bottle of Menzerna 203 i have. I love that stuff for tweaking out some minor imperfections. I will ALWAYS use a finishing polish/pad combo to extract the most shine, gloss and pop after Menz 203. Another middle polish i loved was Menz SIP.

I do hear what you are saying, though. The gap between the newer compounds that finish down so well and a finish step needed to clean everything up has gotten smaller. Not only Menz 400 to 4000 or 4500 but the ubiquitous use of Meg's 105 and 205. To answer your question, i have tried Meg's 105 on both white and black LC foam pads and it still seems to cut too fast if i try to drop the cut with a softer pad. I resort to a more comfortable method and that's a middle polish.

My only point is that i continue to practice the age old "least aggressive" method and for softer paints or paints not torn up too bad i'll still stock my middle polishes. Let's just say i don't do too many 3 step cut, buff and polish jobs anymore. And i ain't complaining!

Good question though.

 

[Kamakaz1961]

I don't know that medium cut polishes are obsolete, but for the most part the 3-step correction (compound, medium polish, fine polish) of yore is. Today it can easily be done with only two steps, as you have noted. This is mostly due to advances in abrasive technology, but partly also pad and machine technology/understanding.

:iagree: IMO 2-Step is the way I go. I use Menz FG400 and SF4500. I also think that DA technology as well as pads make correcting significantly faster and more effective.

The Flex 3401 VRG with Lake Country Hybrid Pads Orange, White and Black are a great example

 

[allenk4]

For harder paints, those Medium cut polishes, sometimes become the finishing polish

Finding a Customer who is willing to pay for that last 5-10% that a 3rd polishing step produces is not easy

 

[Garyhw48]

Is the end near for medium cut polishes? Lets use Menzerna as an eg. FG400 cuts and finishes well and SF4000 cuts less but decently and finishes superb. One can see how they would complement each other.

FG400 Cut 9 Gloss 7
PF2500 Cut 5 Gloss 7
SF4000 Cut 4 Gloss 10

If one needed more cut than 4000 but not as aggressive as 400 they could just use 400 on a pad with less cut? Your thoughts?

:iagree: I have tested what you just said, with a Flex 3401 and PE14, and you are right. The pad is the key. I sanded a clear coat panel with 1500 and 3000 grit. Corrected the 1500 with the PE14 and FG400. Left a spot not totally corrected, switched to SF4000 and kept the same, cleaned, fast cutting pad. The 4000 finished the correction perfectly clear with high gloss.

Tried the same test with the 3401 and got the same results.

I used an aggressive pad on the wet 3000 DA cut with SF4500, and also got perfect results.

So far the medium cut has not been necessary at all, in my tests.

 

[Garyhw48]

I've been thinking about this tonight and the medium cut polishes would come into play when the principle of using the least aggressive product needed to get the results desired.

Mike Philips has told us many times to do test spots and use the least aggressive product necessary to get the job done.

This would be a good reason to use the medium cut products. Not abrading any more paint than is necessary.

 

[allenk4]

The above ^ should always be the goal

But sometimes the inverse....when you have to cut so hard with a wool pad that what is left behind would be more quickly corrected with a medium cut polish followed by a finishing polish

You can correct 1200 grit sanding marks with just about any combo out there in one polishing step...it could just take a lot longer

 

[allenk4]

:iagree: I have tested what you just said, with a Flex 3401 and PE14, and you are right. The pad is the key. I sanded a clear coat panel with 1500 and 3000 grit. Corrected the 1500 with the PE14 and FG400. Left a spot not totally corrected, switched to SF4000 and kept the same, cleaned, fast cutting pad. The 4000 finished the correction perfectly clear with high gloss.

Tried the same test with the 3401 and got the same results.

I used an aggressive pad on the wet 3000 DA cut with SF4500, and also got perfect results.

So far the medium cut has not been necessary at all, in my tests.

The Meguiar's Solo System was based on this principle

One polish and three different pads

 

[Zubair]

M105/205 combo stresses the point of just 2 steps even more. 4000 has almost the same cut as 2500 but much more gloss. If pad x is not cutting enough on 4000 surely it wont either on 2500. This is where 400 on a milder pad steps in. Just like Megs has the M105/205, Menz has the FG400/SF4000 combo which I would think covers all bases providing you have the pads.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I read this thread yesterday and my take is all 4 categories are still valuable, that is,

Aggressive Cut Compound
Medium Cut Polish
Fine Cut Polish
Ultra Fine Cut Polish

And there's a lots of reason why.


For those that have my newest book,

How to use the Flex XC 3401 VRG Dual Action Orbital Polisher


If you look on page 28 you'll see a picture showing 8 brands and these are product combinations that include both a compound and a medium to fine cut polish, mostly fine cut polishes but there are a couple combos where I show an aggressive compound and the follow-up or secondary product is a medium cut polish (Sonax, Menzerna & Optimum).

The point is all the quality brands now use such good abrasive technology that even if you start with an aggressive compound, assuming you're using good technique, good pads and the right tool, (in my book of course I also show all of this), then you can finish out LSP ready with the secondary or follow-up product I show by these various brands.

Now of course, for the person that wants to squeeze every drop of shine and gloss possible out of the paint they're working on you have the option to do a third step using an ultra fine cut polish, that's up to you to decide.

Abrasive technology has become so good in fact as have tools and pads that I've changed the procedure I teach for the buffing process after wetsanding in my detailing boot camp classes and the reason why is because you can now save a lot of time and get the same results by doing two steps where in the past you pretty much had to do three steps. All due to improvements in abrasive technology.


Good thread topic.

:dblthumb2:

 

[Zubair]

Thanks Mike, I have Megs Ultimate Compound, Ultimate Polish, Menz FG400,PF2500 and SF4000 besides tons of AIO's. I find myself reaching for 2500 less and less hence got me thinking if others are finding this too.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Thanks Mike, I have Megs Ultimate Compound, Ultimate Polish, Menz FG400,PF2500 and SF4000 besides tons of AIO's.

I find myself reaching for 2500 less and less hence got me thinking if others are finding this too.

With the FG 400 and the SF4000 you can tackle just about anything in two steps.

And, with todays high quality one-step cleaner/waxes you can use a cleaner/wax as your second step instead of a dedicated polish and not only get the same results but already have sealed the paint.

Here's an example with this old 2-door Ford. I buffed it out with the Flex 3401, Menzerna FG400 and used the new Menzerna PP Ultra as my second step polish.


Little Deuce Coupe - Hotrod Detailing

Actually used the approach I share in the chapter on Show Car Detailing in my new Flex 3401 book except for the second machine step using a fine cut polish I used the cleaner/wax. Everything else was the same.


:dblthumb2:

 

[Zubair]

With the FG 400 and the SF4000 you can tackle just about anything in two steps.

And, with todays high quality one-step cleaner/waxes you can use a cleaner/wax as your second step instead of a dedicated polish and not only get the same results but already have sealed the paint.

Here's an example with this old 2-door Ford. I buffed it out with the Flex 3401, Menzerna FG400 and used the new Menzerna PP Ultra as my second step polish.


:dblthumb2:

Very interesting! You just made my life alot easier :dblthumb2:

 

[Desertnate]

Interesting discussion.

I've found similar results. Using the UC/UP combo or the Blackfire SRC duo, almost any job is done in two steps.

However, what would you call a "medium polish"? Would this be products like Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover or Prima Swirl? I'm not sure how they stack up against Menzerna's 4000 or 2500, but I could products in that range being a great option to correct cars that are in reasonable condition with only one step. It would eliminate the need to go clear down to a compound.

 

[Zubair]

Interesting discussion.

I've found similar results. Using the UC/UP combo or the Blackfire SRC duo, almost any job is done in two steps.

However, what would you call a "medium polish"? Would this be products like Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover or Prima Swirl? I'm not sure how they stack up against Menzerna's 4000 or 2500, but I could products in that range being a great option to correct cars that are in reasonable condition with only one step. It would eliminate the need to go clear down to a compound.

PF2500 would be classified as a medium cut 5/10, SF4000 very close in cut however has a Gloss of 10/10. I have found that using the same cut pads, if 4000 doesnt cut enough, neither will the 2500. The SF4000 is regarded as a jeweling or finishing polish but its definately has decent cut for most swirls. For deeper scratches the 400 takes care of that.

 

[dlc95]

Interesting discussion.

I've found similar results. Using the UC/UP combo or the Blackfire SRC duo, almost any job is done in two steps.

However, what would you call a "medium polish"? Would this be products like Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover or Prima Swirl? I'm not sure how they stack up against Menzerna's 4000 or 2500, but I could products in that range being a great option to correct cars that are in reasonable condition with only one step. It would eliminate the need to go clear down to a compound.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...130-one-step-polishes-menzerna-meguiar-s.html

I recently asked what would be a good "one step" polish, and received some great answers.

In my own investigating, I've also noticed the previously mentioned Meguiar's m86 so1o polish, and that it might be able to fulfill that role, given the right pad is used.

 

[dlc95]

Mike Phillips did a great job with some m86, and it could have been a great, insightful thread, if not for a couple of nitpicking bozos that ruined it, and got it locked up.

M86 is designed for rotary use, but I believe Mike used it with a da. Because I only use that type of machine these days, I was especially interested in their performance together.