When do you put down the polisher and pick up the sander?

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Matt@Revive

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i am working on a 2013 Mustang that has lived as a rental car and seen 2 lifetimes of automatic car washes. i did a few test spots and found M105 on a MF cutting pad will remove the defects after about 2 applications of 4 sections passes on speed 6.

after spending nearly 6 hours compunding and polishing the roof and hood, i'm looking at the trunk and both sides of the car and wondering if it would be faster to hit the car with 3000 grit before compounding.



 
What machine are you using?

And are you contemplating sanding by hand or machine?
 
Wow, that's nasty.

I'll comment 'outside' the sander subject, and let's hear our friend's opinion towards sanding procedures to recommend you.

Please, do not read my words bellow as the right / best or only way to do it, just some thoughts to help you deciding what's better for YOU.

From how you described what you're facing

"...and found M105 on a MF cutting pad will remove the defects after about 2 applications of 4 sections passes on speed 6. "

I'd do the following:

a) Grab a heavier cutting compound like Meguiar's M100 or Menzerna SHC300.

For me there's a sign M105 is not working it's full potential in this paint (can happen, not all products will work 101%, 101% of time).

I did a Golf 2013 (link bellow) where FG400 and MF wasn't enough, just stepping up the compound to M100 did the trick. That date I haven't got SHC300 yet.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...ne-revival-pinnacle-black-label-coatings.html

M100 and Meguiar's MF disc is not an 'invention of mine', M100 came with my Meguiar's Microfiber 5" Kit. Glad they did it.

After stepping up compound I'd do a complementary compounding step - in my case FG400 on orange foam cutting pad (you can use M105).

This secondary compounding step will be gentler than the first, although it's still a powerful combination and will improve the finish towards finishing the job.

In some cases FG400 and orange pad can meet LSP-ready this time, although the final finishing step takes so little time it's almost always worth doing to guarantee the best results. Again, depends on test spot, $$, time, there's no rule.

Lastly, the third step would be a white polishing pad (or black/gray depending on test spot) with your favorite finishing polish (mine is SF4000), you can use M205.

This should be a way to workaround when you need an extensive compounding procedure but want to keep moving towards finishing without deviating from 3-steps at maximum.

Again, just some thoughts, hope that helps.

Kind Regards.
 
Matt@landrover said:
after spending nearly 6 hours compounding and polishing the roof and hood, I'm looking at the trunk and both sides of the car and wondering if it would be faster to hit the car with 3000 grit before compounding.
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One thing for sure....

Sanding a car is easy.... getting 100% of the sanding marks out is the tricky part....


(You can quote me on that)


Seriously, it would be faster and cooler to the paint to machine sand it with #3000 or #5000 and then remove your sanding marks using a compound and a rotary buffer.

You can do it using other tools but it will take longer and the other tools will never be as powerful and thus effective as a rotary buffer.


If this is a daily driver, I would keep this point in perspective and hit it with either a Flex 3401 or a rotary buffer for your first step and then simply clean it up with a follow up step and polish.


This was a three step process and it has a LOT of swirls and scratches and I found the paint to be on the medium to hard side.


We used including these three steps...

Step 1 - Compounding the paint using Wolfgang Uber Compound on a wool pad with the Flex PE14

Step 2 - Polishing the paint with a black Hybrid finishing pad on the Flex 3401

Step 3 - Machine waxing with Wolfgang Fuzion.
​

Mark's Fast Ferrari with Wolfgang Fuzion


:)
 
An addition, here's from where I got the the 'dual-compounding'-step

Microfiber first cut:
Rupes_Zephir_Gloss_Coarse_Gel_Compound_002.jpg


Foam cutting pad secondary cut:
Rupes_Zephir_Gloss_Coarse_Gel_Compound_008.jpg


And the recommendation for the last step:
"... The next step if this were a car would be to re-polish using a less aggressive foam pad and polish and then seal the paint."

All the Pictures above are credited to Mike Phillips, found in the bellow thread:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...c-rupes-zephir-gloss-coarse-gel-compound.html

Coincidently, this approach was used after a sanding procedure, so I recommend you to take a look at this thread as well:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...upes-5-inch-2000-3000-grit-sanding-discs.html

Not exactly what you're looking for, but great source of info.

Kind Regards.
 
Matt, I've used the Unigrit disks before and found it was time consuming as well. As a beginner, you'll need to move slow and careful so that you don't get eaten by the learning curve.
 
Have you tried slowing the speed down? Maybe try the pc?

I've had much success with m105/Rupes blue mf disc/pc7424xp removing 1000 grit sanding marks on a scrap Honda door. I primarily used speeds 4-4.5. Light to moderate pressure. Maybe it's worth a try?
 
Please answer so I can help you, I have been at this very same place 1000 times…I hope this doesn’t sound derogatory in any way.
What is the customer paying? Or what results is the customer expecting to see? What level of exterior detail did you sell him/her? What is your skill level of sanding? Do you have m100 and a cutting pad? What polisher are you using?


 
dan989 said:
Please answer so I can help you, I have been at this very same place 1000 times…I hope this doesn’t sound derogatory in any way.
What is the customer paying? Or what results is the customer expecting to see? What level of exterior detail did you sell him/her? What is your skill level of sanding? Do you have m100 and a cutting pad? What polisher are you using?


Click to expand...

customer is not paying enough, this is my first vehicle with this customer, they are a sales and service center with a very large following in my area. (just having the car in my shop i've already gotten 3 calls from their customers)

sanding skills are beginner/moderate, i've done a lot of studying and playing, just haven't had a chance to put it to use on a full vehicle.

i'm using a Rupes 15 for compounding and polishing

i do not have M100, i do have M105/205 and Menz fg400 as well as the full line of Rupes foam pads and Meguiars MF pads.
 
I suppose you don't want to wait to order new products if this is a customer car, but M100 can be found locally a few places where I live. Hopefully the same is true for you.
Not to be an ass or anything, but if I had a car that bad, I wouldn't have done the roof and hood, I'd have done test spots until I had what I wanted. Too much time is wasted to do those large panels and then wonder what to do. Again, not being critical; I've seen your other work and know you have more experience than me.
 
I rarely use extremely aggressive pads or polishes. 3M Trizact 1500-5000 has pretty much made severe defect removal quick, easy, and safe. Harsh pads and polishes will heat up the surface no matter what polisher you are using, and clearcoats do not like heat. Also, correcting the paint should be the easiest part of your work, polishing it should be the most difficult and time consuming. If this isn't the case you need to review your process.
 
conman1395 said:
I suppose you don't want to wait to order new products if this is a customer car, but M100 can be found locally a few places where I live. Hopefully the same is true for you.
Not to be an ass or anything, but if I had a car that bad, I wouldn't have done the roof and hood, I'd have done test spots until I had what I wanted. Too much time is wasted to do those large panels and then wonder what to do. Again, not being critical; I've seen your other work and know you have more experience than me.
Click to expand...

thanks for the input. i'm trying to get M100 sent over by tomorrow. the reason i did my test spots and inicial work on the hood anr roof is because those were the most damaged areas. yes, i used up a lot of time doing those areas, but i like to start with the worst and know i can easy up on the damaged areas.

with my given deadline i can only keep hammering like i have been, try to machine sand with 3000 on the heavy scratches, or wait untill i get M100 tomorrow afternoon and hope that is saves time.
 
I'm all for you learning to wetsand, heck I teach this in my detailing boot camp classes and at Mobile Tech.

Just be careful and like any other paint polishing procedure...

Do a TEST SPOT

That is, sand in a small area and see if you can buff out your sanding marks and if you can... how hard or how easy it is.


One more comment from experience....

No amount of words can describe the heart sinking feeling that overcomes you when you turn your buffing pad over only to see the color of the basecoat now on your buffing pad...


:xyxthumbs:
 
Matt@landrover said:
customer is not paying enough, this is my first vehicle with this customer, they are a sales and service center with a very large following in my area. (just having the car in my shop i've already gotten 3 calls from their customers)

sanding skills are beginner/moderate, i've done a lot of studying and playing, just haven't had a chance to put it to use on a full vehicle.

i'm using a Rupes 15 for compounding and polishing

i do not have M100, i do have M105/205 and Menz fg400 as well as the full line of Rupes foam pads and Meguiars MF pads.
Click to expand...

This quote should answer all the questions that you have asked. If the customer wants to pay for a full dampsand and polish, then by all means, I agree 100% with Tundrapower, sanding and polishing those marks out is the best way to go, but I also agree with Mike, in that you don't want to sand thru all the clear. I would use the M105/M205 you have and not do the multiple section passes that you have been doing. Get the car looking good but don't work yourself to death on a customer who may not appreciate it.

If this car has been ran thru the tunnel of swirls in the past, it will probably get done that way again.

You've basically hit the show panels more, so do the sides with the combo I was stating, show it to the customer and mention that some of what is left cannot be removed without sanding and that is not in the price we agreed upon.

HUMP
 
HUMP DIESEL said:
If this car has been ran thru the tunnel of swirls in the past, it will probably get done that way again.
Click to expand...


Whenever I detail a car I think to myself,

How did the paint get into the current condition.

Often times the answer is owner neglect or even owner abuse.

When that is the case I then ask myself,

What's changed?

That is, what has changed in this persons life so that if I polish their car back to like new or show car quality, what has changed that NOW they'll take care of it?

If the answer is nothing, I won't do a multiple step but instead will offer a one-step cleaner/wax.

If the answer is something has happened in their life where now they are educated and appreciate a nice finish, (don't laugh it happens), then I'll consider doing more work.

In some cases, the person in question does care but they bought the car used and the current condition is out of their control. That would be the case of the recent 1978 Trans Am I buffed out. The paint was trashed when the current owner purchased the car.

So think things through... don't try to create a show car finish out of every car you work on. You'll kill yourself trying and probably not make any profit.

One of my favorite articles....


A few tips on starting a part-time detailing business
Match your services to your customer


It's also the most viewd article in the forum group,

How to make money detailing cars


:)
 
I forgot to mention, never sand where you cannot polish. This sounds dumb but it's very easy to do...
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
No amount of words can describe the heart sinking feeling that overcomes you when you turn your buffing pad over only to see the color of the basecoat now on your buffing pad...


:xyxthumbs:
Click to expand...


i know this feeling all too well. when i was learning i found my way to base coat on a few occations. luckily is was on my own car that i already planned on painting. still to this day i hold my breath when i list the pad off the paint after doing heay correction.

How this car got the bad? it is a 2013 Penske Hertz Mustang GT #143 of 150. it spent its first year of life as a rental car, getting beaten on and run through who knows how many auto car washes. it is now owned by a Mustang enthusiast who is adding it to his collection. hopefully no more auto car washes, but still the occational burn out.
 
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