Is it Flex and then everything else?

MIsnowman

MIsnowman

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After doing a lot of reading/researching on DA polishers, it seems like there is the Flex 3401 and then there is everything else. Is that an accurate statement? Is there anything that a traditional free rotating DA does better than the Flex?

I don't have any experience with a DA polishing paint, but I have spent a fair amount of time sanding paint with a pneumatic DA. This had the ability to run it free floating or forced rotation and the difference in cut was night and day between the two, especially on curves. From what I've read it seems like the results are similar between the Flex and other DAs?

I am just a hobbyist that would be polishing 5-6 vehicles and a large enclosed trailer and possibly some farm equipment once I get the hang of it. Is the Flex 3401 the "best" DA out there? I know that is a loaded question, but it seems like if it does everything just a well or better than other DAs and has more correction ability then it is the one I want. I have some experience using a rotary polisher, both pneumatic and a DeWalt 849X, so I don't think I would have any problems controlling the tool, which seems to be the biggest complaint from first time users. I just don't want to buy a traditional DA and then end up buying a Flex because I wasn't satisfied with the DA.
 
DA's are very subjective the Flex 3401 might be the best tool for you but not for someone else. It really depends what you're trying to do. As far as speed of correction is concerned Flex 3401 is one of the fastest, 2nd only to rotary buffer's and wet sanding.
 
IMO based on your experience with sanding with a pneumatic DA; the Flex would be the closest to your experience. It is the only DA on the market (that I know of) is a "forced rotation" DA. All others are "free floating" DA's. They could stop rotating on curved panels.

I can't comment on Rupes and the new Boss DA's but I can comment on the PC7424XP. It will stop on a curved panel. You have to make sure your technique is right for it to spin correctly. I upgraded to the Flex 3401 and it has been an incredible asset to my detailing arsenal.

I still use the PC7424XP only because I choose to. I use it for sealant/waxing applications.

But based on what you have described...I would not look at any other DA ad just get the Flex 3401.
 
How likely are free floating DA's to stop on curves? I have two early 2000s Flareside F150s and the whole box is curved. It seems like the concave curves would be more of an issue than convex curves with a regular DA.

Initially I was looking at the new Megs MT300 DA since I already have a rotary and don't really need the added correction ability of the flex, but I've read a lot of complaints about free floating DA's stopping all the time on curved panels. I'm sure proper technique and pad size has a lot to do with it, but I don't want to buy something that isn't going to do what I want to do with it.
 
I recently reviewed the Flex as a first time user. See the thread under the Flex subforum. I will say flat out, "technique" is very important to non-forced DA and for whatever reason, there is really no good training for technique. The only way to learn the technique is to do it and overtime figure it out. Well for me at least, I don't have that have kinda of time and I spent tons of money on the Rupes system, which I couldn't get to work. I received a fair amount of criticism regarding my technique, which to be fair may be correct, but I keep asking for videos, or anything that would be helpful and saw nothing. The only thing that I have seen and heard is "change your technique" and the Rupes and other DAs will work for you. My ultimate question is why? The Flex, with its super easy learning curve, is a killer detailing product that newbie and experienced professionals use and love. In fact, Mike Phillips wrote a whole book on it, which actually was very helpful.

After doing my first car with it last weekend, I couldn't believe how great of machine it is and how well it works. What I fail to understand is why no other company manufactures forced rotation DA. I guess the reason is that a) the market is not big enough to support another competitor and 2) the Flex is so well established grabbing market share would be impossible. Finally, I liked the tool so much I ordered another since I need 5 inch pads and 6.5 pads and didn't want to spend one second switching plate.

Given your overall experience and what you are trying to accomplish, if you have time you could try to learn the technique and spend tons of time or purchase and Flex and get right to work. Hope this helps.
 
MIsnowman said:
I'm sure proper technique and pad size has a lot to do with it
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*Ding! That's your answer.

The Flex is great if you don't want to learn technique and or match the pad and the product to the job. It's fast, simply because it won't stop mo matter what you do to it which can be totally boneheaded. If you buy a non-forced rotation DA you have to learn some finesse. That's beyond many folks, they just want fast. The Tim Allen Tool Time syndrome.

I have a Flex 3401 and I have a Rupes 15. both have their place. Everyone will tell you that each is without sin. BS. Two major things I dislike about the Flex are (1) It rotates in the opposite direction than any other polisher. If you're right handed it means it torques to the left instead of to the right like you'll be used to. (2) It's a beast to single hand. You want to lean over that roof, or long hood with one hand on the buffer? Far from easy. You're fighting that forced rotation.

Now to be fair, the top Rupes issue for me is that if your technique isn't right they're pad eaters. too much product, too much pressure, bad technique you can delaminate pads pretty quickly which can make the cost of ownership a bit higher. Complex curves? Technique only issue.

I consider the Rupes to be the garage queen of buffers where it's really nice and it's for something special. Flex is for when all you want to do is get there. "Hey Bubba, hold my beer, Ima gonna grind me some paint" :)
 
If you can swing it 3401 and a Rupes that cover all bases.
 
mbpress01 said:
I recently reviewed the Flex as a first time user. See the thread under the Flex subforum. I will say flat out, "technique" is very important to non-forced DA and for whatever reason, there is really no good training for technique. The only way to learn the technique is to do it and overtime figure it out. Well for me at least, I don't have that have kinda of time and I spent tons of money on the Rupes system, which I couldn't get to work. I received a fair amount of criticism regarding my technique, which to be fair may be correct, but I keep asking for videos, or anything that would be helpful and saw nothing. The only thing that I have seen and heard is "change your technique" and the Rupes and other DAs will work for you. My ultimate question is why? The Flex, with its super easy learning curve, is a killer detailing product that newbie and experienced professionals use and love. In fact, Mike Phillips wrote a whole book on it, which actually was very helpful.

After doing my first car with it last weekend, I couldn't believe how great of machine it is and how well it works. What I fail to understand is why no other company manufactures forced rotation DA. I guess the reason is that a) the market is not big enough to support another competitor and 2) the Flex is so well established grabbing market share would be impossible. Finally, I liked the tool so much I ordered another since I need 5 inch pads and 6.5 pads and didn't want to spend one second switching plate.

Given your overall experience and what you are trying to accomplish, if you have time you could try to learn the technique and spend tons of time or purchase and Flex and get right to work. Hope this helps.
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Thanks for your feedback.

I have read your review of the flex and your experience with the Rupes as well. I guess the part I'm still missing is why not get the Flex? You want to keep the pad rotating when doing any correcting and the forced rotation ensures this. Will the Flex swirl the paint if not used properly where a traditional DA will just stop?
 
Ccrew said:
*Ding! That's your answer.

The Flex is great if you don't want to learn technique and or match the pad and the product to the job. It's fast, simply because it won't stop mo matter what you do to it which can be totally boneheaded. If you buy a non-forced rotation DA you have to learn some finesse. That's beyond many folks, they just want fast. The Tim Allen Tool Time syndrome.

I have a Flex 3401 and I have a Rupes 15. both have their place. Everyone will tell you that each is without sin. BS. Two major things I dislike about the Flex are (1) It rotates in the opposite direction than any other polisher. If you're right handed it means it torques to the left instead of to the right like you'll be used to. (2) It's a beast to single hand. You want to lean over that roof, or long hood with one hand on the buffer? Far from easy. You're fighting that forced rotation.

Now to be fair, the top Rupes issue for me is that if your technique isn't right they're pad eaters. too much product, too much pressure, bad technique you can delaminate pads pretty quickly which can make the cost of ownership a bit higher. Complex curves? Technique only issue.

I consider the Rupes to be the garage queen of buffers where it's really nice and it's for something special. Flex is for when all you want to do is get there. "Hey Bubba, hold my beer, Ima gonna grind me some paint" :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the comparisons. Do you feel you get a superior finish with the Rupes vs the Flex? I don't mind putting in the time to get the results I'm looking for, but I also don't want to spend an hour doing something that can be accomplished in 20 minutes either.
 
The Flex is a great polisher, one of the best. But when I borrowed one to use on numerous cars, the vibration was just enough to give my hands (which are in the early stages of psoriatic arthritis) a workout. The vibration is not at the PC level and nowhere near the Griot's Garage 6" level, but it was enough to bother my brittle hands during the compounding stage. Also, like Ccrew says, the counter-clockwise spin was a nuisance to get used to. I mainly use the DeWalt 849X and the Makita 9227C for the bulk of my compounding and polishing, so after being so used to clockwise forced rotation, I didn't like switching over. That's something that will be less noticeable over time with more usage though.

The DeWalt is a very smooth polisher, it's better on my hands than the Flex and I would rather compound with it. That makes the price of the Flex much less attractive and that's the reason I couldn't make a purchase.

The Rupes is a super smooth machine. It was better on my hands compared to the Flex. But that 21mm orbit is a large surface area and you'll need a surgical designated tool to complement it. You can certainly make adjustments on curved areas that are prone to stopping the rotation, ease up on the pressure and let the pad, polish, and the larger orbit do it's job more than your pressure on the tool and that might work for you. The lack of vibration is what makes the Rupes very attractive for me. But now that I've cut back heavily on the amount of cars that I'm doing, the price was too high to justify the purchase. Otherwise I would have went with the Rupes over the Flex.

I always recommend to try and get your hands on them before you decide, see if one of the Geeks in your area will let you take them for a test run to see which one might better suit your preferences. Because I've seen multiple cases where people have taken back the Rupes and gotten a Flex, and vice versa. Both polishers will finish down great, with rotary polishers you really have to focus on technique to try and finish out as hologram free as possible, something that is less of an issue with the DA behavior of the Flex and Rupes.
 
"Will the Flex swirl the paint if not used properly where a traditional DA will just stop".

For me at least, I found that the Flex will not swirl the paint. It still oscillates while spinning like a regular DA. As a result, unless you jam the pad, set the speed on 6 and just let it sit on the paint forcefully you will not get swirls or burnt paint. There is debate about finishing ability and such but for me the Flex finished incredibly.

Here is what I found:

On flat panels, totally equal. If vibration/smoothness matter, clearly Rupes wins. No one I think would disagree with that.
On vertical panels, special technique for Rupes none for Flex. Last weekend was just huge in the sense that the doors, bumpers etc took no time. Just polish and go on the next. Rupes, well let's say the frustration was huge since on every curvy panel, vertical panel the pad stop spinning or stalled or slowed down. Again, better technique may get you there but it wasn't for me. I just wanted to get the car looking awesome in the shortest amount of time.

Finally, it really depends on what you want. Since I spent over 3k on the Rupes system and scraped it, I wasn't going to even chance another DA since everyone agrees that unless you have technique they will stop or stall. No thanks. Flex just works.
 
MIsnowman said:
Thanks for the comparisons. Do you feel you get a superior finish with the Rupes vs the Flex? I don't mind putting in the time to get the results I'm looking for, but I also don't want to spend an hour doing something that can be accomplished in 20 minutes either.
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I feel personally that I can get a better finish with the Rupes. Keep in mind also that my experience is with the Rupes 15, not the 21. I use both the Flex and the Rupes on the same car in many cases though. I'll use the Flex to get the car to an almost LSP ready state and the Rupes for finish. That process works well for me. The only time I'll use just the Flex on a car is if it's a quick knock out like an AIO on a daily driver car where they're looking for a quick clean and polish with a minimum of time involved (time = $)

You really can't go wrong with either tool, and I won't say the Flex is a must have nor a must stay away from, but the whole "better than sliced bread" mindset that seems to be pretty pervasive here I feel is unwarranted and you'll notice it is usually accompanied with an offhand statement like "I didn't have time to learn" when referring to the Rupes. Sometimes reading between the lines IS everything.
 
Ccrew said:
You really can't go wrong with either tool, and I won't say the Flex is a must have nor a must stay away from, but the whole "better than sliced bread" mindset that seems to be pretty pervasive here I feel is unwarranted and you'll notice it is usually accompanied with an offhand statement like "I didn't have time to learn" when referring to the Rupes. Sometimes reading between the lines IS everything.
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I got that same vibe and ended up going with the BOSS 15 myself-- and even that is probably more than I need for the two cars I maintain...

I can't figure out what the non-professionals are doing to their paint that they feel the need to have the machine that offers the quickest paint correcting times... how many times a year are you people doing paint correction?
 
Ccrew said:
I feel personally that I can get a better finish with the Rupes. Keep in mind also that my experience is with the Rupes 15, not the 21. I use both the Flex and the Rupes on the same car in many cases though. I'll use the Flex to get the car to an almost LSP ready state and the Rupes for finish. That process works well for me. The only time I'll use just the Flex on a car is if it's a quick knock out like an AIO on a daily driver car where they're looking for a quick clean and polish with a minimum of time involved (time = $)

You really can't go wrong with either tool, and I won't say the Flex is a must have nor a must stay away from, but the whole "better than sliced bread" mindset that seems to be pretty pervasive here I feel is unwarranted and you'll notice it is usually accompanied with an offhand statement like "I didn't have time to learn" when referring to the Rupes. Sometimes reading between the lines IS everything.
Click to expand...

Thank you. It seems like most who have a Flex also have a traditional DA that they use for the finishing steps which makes me question the finishing ability of the Flex. I'm not polishing show cars, so the perfect finish isn't necessary, but being I already have a rotary, maybe a free floating DA is all I need. I agree about reading between the lines. I also agree with what others have said about a big factor being personal preference.

It's great to be getting so many responses so quickly!!
 
MIsnowman said:
Thank you. It seems like most who have a Flex also have a traditional DA that they use for the finishing steps which makes me question the finishing ability of the Flex. I'm not polishing show cars, so the perfect finish isn't necessary, but being I already have a rotary, maybe a free floating DA is all I need. I agree about reading between the lines. I also agree with what others have said about a big factor being personal preference.

It's great to be getting so many responses so quickly!!
Click to expand...

IMO the Flex has excellent "finishing" abilities. I can "jewel" polish my ride. As I said before, I will only use my PC7424XP when I choose to. I admit the Flex is a beast, however, I can use it as a "finesse" DA too. Once you get used to the machine (or any DA for that matter) you can accomplish quite a bit from the little details to the massive correction work.

The last 3 cars that I have detailed, I have only used my Flex. The last one was a Porsche Boxter and it was a very curvy car...I knew my PC would not be able to accomplish what my Flex could in such a short time.

Either way, whatever you choose, based on your experience I would assume you will adapt quite easily.
 
You definitely have to throw the Griot's BOSS into the equation. I did this quick three step test yesterday with my GG21 system on my daughters 09 Altima. I knocked this out in 30 minutes with the BOSS.
She's only washed it once in 5-6 months and that's been after I did a pretty good 2 step to it back in about November. It definitely didn't look like this even after my two step.



 
I have the 3401, Rupes 21 and the PE14. Back few months ago, I was using the Rupes more. Then I slowly switched to the Flex, mainly because the long throw is kinda difficult to control in tight areas. But now I'm using more the PE14 and then finessing with the 3401 or the Rupes. I don't know, ... :), I think it a dynamic procedure, it will depend on the car you're working, your mood, what I know is that this trio is a must have, they complement each other. And now there is the new Griot's Boss, wish I could test it. The Rupes seems more balanced, though, especially using only one hand.
Sometimes I miss a smaller polisher for tight spots, I made a smaller plate for the PC and use it, but a PE8 or TA50 would be a nice add-on.
 
The BOSS is awesome and my Rupes Mini is the king in it's class. I also really like my Duetto. I'll be employing all three on my future detailing escapades.
 
I think all these comments are great but what it comes down to is what is important to you. For me - time to detail vs looks is so important. I tried to work all the rupes and this whole technique thing still has me baffled. If technique and "finesse" and maybe smoothness are critical and you have plenty of time rupes/boss may be the way to go. If time is important I think MOST would agree Flex is the tool. Please let us know your decision and the outcome.
 
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