Hybrid waxes and bonding

[alpha]

Since hybrid waxes have synthetic polymers in addition to carnauba wax in the formula; they are, in theory, supposed to have more longevity. So, this got me thinking about potential bonding issues when applying a hybrid wax over another hybrid wax.

For example, one day you decide to wash, clay, and polish your car. As your LSP, you choose to use Wolfgang Fuzion. About a month or so goes by, and you now want to apply another layer of wax; at this time, you choose to apply some BLACKFIRE BlackICE. In this example, you would only wash and wax (no chemical or mechanical stripping of the existing LSP).

If there is still some carnauba from the application of Fuzion, I could see, at least theoretically, that the carnauba from the Fuzion could cause crosslink issues with the polymers in BlackICE. If there would be issues, it seems like applying the BlackICE would be a waste of time and a waste of product.

Has anyone tried this and experienced bonding issues?

 

[custmsprty]

I've done just that with Fuzion and Black Ice and never done anything prep wise more than apply the product. No issues what so ever.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

If there is still some carnauba from the application of Fuzion, I could see, at least theoretically, that the carnauba from the Fuzion could cause crosslink issues with the polymers in BlackICE. If there would be issues, it seems like applying the BlackICE would be a waste of time and a waste of product.

If that was true, wouldn't the polymers in the Fuzion have trouble bonding in the first place? When they're all mixed up with that carnauba?

I'm not going to discount the sealant-over-wax concerns, but clearly the sealants in hybrid products are formulated to work with wax "contamination".

 

[alpha]

I've done just that with Fuzion and Black Ice and never done anything prep wise more than apply the product. No issues what so ever.

Cool! That's actually what I was expecting and hoping to hear.

If that was true, wouldn't the polymers in the Fuzion have trouble bonding in the first place? When they're all mixed up with that carnauba?

I'm not going to discount the sealant-over-wax concerns, but clearly the sealants in hybrid products are formulated to work with wax "contamination".

So that's the thing. The overall chemical formula for Fuzion would promote the polymers in it to crosslink with each other. I understand that the carnauba portion of both waxes is the same.

So let's take a step back. Taking out the carnauba portion of it, what about the other ingredients in each formula? Would the other ingredients in Fuzion cause crosslink issues with the polymers in BlackICE?
I could see the ingredients that promote the polymers to crosslink to be similar for each formula; but there has to be a difference, right? Or do those ingredients go away after a while, and only leave the cured sealant and pure carnauba on the paint?

Also, since there is a stated concern with sealant-over-wax, at what point is a hybrid wax more of a sealant and less of a wax? I'm just tossing random numbers out, but let's say Fuzion is 50% sealant / 50% wax and BlackICE is 80% sealant / 20% wax. Would there be a similar concern if BlackICE were to go above Fuzion, in that case?

I believe BlackICE has claims that it lasts about 5 months. It's been stated by other members in the past that BlackICE has more longevity than Fuzion. Is BlackICE more of a sealant than a wax? Or is it because of the difference between Montan wax and carnauba wax?

Let's assume that BlackICE does last 5 months, if the paint has been properly cleansed and there is no current LSP. Are you compromising its longevity if you are applying it over an existing carnauba wax? Would it cut that longevity down to say, 2 months instead of 5 months?

This was just some random thought I had today. I have no scientific basis for any of this, and it could very well be a concern that is not actually a concern.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Many of us geeks spend a lot of time hashing this kind of stuff out on forums, and maybe in a lab you could answer these questions more definitively, but I think in the real world it's not that important. Sure there are some products (Klasse SG) that have a reputation for wanting a "wax-free" surface, and there are some (coatings) that you definitely want a squeaky clean surface for.

On the other hand, there are probably more products than you realize that are "hybrids", many many "waxes" contain synthetic ingredients as well.

In the real world there are probably variables that make more difference to the longevity (environment, wash frequency, wash technique, wash chemistry) than the product variables you describe.

 

[alpha]

Many of us geeks spend a lot of time hashing this kind of stuff out on forums, and maybe in a lab you could answer these questions more definitively, but I think in the real world it's not that important.

True. But one could argue that it could be more important in a real world setting. If you discover issues in a lab environment with ideal conditions, the real world conditions could accelerate and/or exacerbate those issues.

On the other hand, there are probably more products than you realize that are "hybrids", many many "waxes" contain synthetic ingredients as well.

I agree. I was more curious about products that are marketed as hybrids. Even with waxes that are not marketed as hybrid waxes, I'm sure the other ingredients that make the carnauba soft enough to be spreadable are not all natural. I'm not a chemist though, so that's purely a WAG.

In the real world there are probably variables that make more difference to the longevity (environment, wash frequency, wash technique, wash chemistry) than the product variables you describe.

Very true. I also don't think most of us geeks would really ever know the true longevity of a particular product; especially with such actions as using spray waxes as drying aids, refreshing wax every month or two, using wash and wax products, etc.

Like I said, just some random thought I had, and one that I'm probably overthinking at this point.
Thanks for entertaining my thought ramble!

 

[glfnaz]

On one of my cars I've been using a hybrid, Collinite. I use it every 4-5 months. Monthly I top it with another Hybrid, Optimum Car wax.

I had the same thinking / wondering as you, but but my results have been great.

After washes I often hit it with a synthetic sealant while drying, Duragloss Aqua Wax.
Again, no issues, no streaking, quality results.
But, I'm not a chemist and your mileage may vary.