Debate Over LSP Removal Settled

ski2 said:
How did you know the LSP was gone? Did you spray with water and check for beading? If so, did you then wipe it down with IPA and then spray with water again? Usually whatever soap you are using leaves surfactants behind that destroy any beading, but once the surfactants are removed with IPA the beading returns if the LSP is still there.
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I think what tenblade was using was the disappearance of the pink tint from his previous LSP application. It's been discussed ad nauseum here not only what removes certain LSP's but how do you actually know something was successful or not. It's a nebulous effort however i think we all agree that a machine effort provides more assurance. I think what tenblade was sharing was a unique opportunity to actually see something removed and i applaud him for sharing it with us.

Efforts to remove also must consider which LSP was applied and how. I'm happy he was able to get rid of his pinkish tint. Just didn't seem right on an M!
 
Puckman said:
I think what tenblade was using was the disappearance of the pink tint from his previous LSP application. It's been discussed ad nauseum here not only what removes certain LSP's but how do you actually know something was successful or not. It's a nebulous effort however i think we all agree that a machine effort provides more assurance. I think what tenblade was sharing was a unique opportunity to actually see something removed and i applaud him for sharing it with us.

Efforts to remove also must consider which LSP was applied and how. I'm happy he was able to get rid of his pinkish tint. Just didn't seem right on an M!
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I totally agree with tenblades' conclusions which only add further proof to what I have found with my own testing.

I was referring to idriveblackcars post about the new product from CG said to remove LSPs ---"Actually I switched from CG citrus red to their new clean slate wash. It will remove new layers of waxes and sealants extremely easy. It's what it was designed to do. I made a thread about having to remove a fresh layer of sealant and wax on a co workers car.

Just did it over the weekend, used 3oz in my foam cannon and about 6oz in my wash bucket. It took off literally everything on the car and we were talking about product that has only been on a month or so.

But I'm getting the feeling here any time I bring up a fantastic product that works and is not known by AG I get shut down lol"

If he didn't give it an IPA wipe down after the washes, then it's impossible to tell if there were surfactants on the paint from the wash solution that make it "appear" that the LSP is gone because there is no beading. A Dawn wash will do the same thing--there is no beading after a Dawn wash, but if you give it an IPA wipe down (which removes the surfactants) the beading will magically reappear.

If the new CG product actually does remove LSPs it would be a great product, but CG also claims CG Red mixed at one once per gallon will remove existing LSPs. It fails the IPA wipe down test just like Dawn.

Just trying to find out if idriveblackcars eliminated the surfactants.
 
Ahhh, ok, Ski, i gotcha now. Sorry for any confusion. I thought you were asking tenblade how he knew the LSP was removed.
 
Puckman--no need to apologize.

CG website states the recommended dilution to remove existing wax and sealant is one ounce per five gallons. This is less than what they recommended for Citrus Wash Red (1 oz per gallon) to remove existing LSPs and that didn't work (even at much stronger dilutions) so I don't see how this will work at 1 oz per 5 gallons.

I really wish it did work as it's something we all could use to make the move from one LSP to another a simple task--just wash, dry and apply the new LSP--no need to drag the polisher out.
 
ski2 said:
I really wish it did work as it's something we all could use to make the move from one LSP to another a simple task--just wash, dry and apply the new LSP--no need to drag the polisher out.
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I think it's both more simple and more complicated than that at the same time. The presumption that LSP's could be easily stripped with things like Dawn (which I've been hearing since I came to detailing forums a dozen years ago, most famously at that time the Zaino instructions for "stripping" by using Dawn) has created the following conundrum: how important is it to strip if we haven't really been doing it? Is this the reason for different users having different results with the same product? Because one chemically "stripped" while the other actually stripped by polishing? Or have we just been brainwashed into believing there is a difference when there really isn't?

I mean, if the current LSP is firmly attached to the surface, does it help/hinder/neither a subsequent LSP? Does the Dawn (or other "stripper") residue on the surface act as a "primer", and help the new LSP adhere, or does it interfere?

I guess I'm saying that because there has been so much mistaken belief about being able to easily strip LSP's, do we really have the knowledge base we think we do? I mean, if I understand the original post, tenblade actually used P21S paint cleaner by hand and it had no effect...how common a prep was that back in the day? Using a prewax cleaner by hand?

Tenblade: can you confirm that is what you meant, that you used P21S GEPC by hand?
 
ski2 said:
I totally agree with tenblades' conclusions which only add further proof to what I have found with my own testing.

I was referring to idriveblackcars post about the new product from CG said to remove LSPs ---"Actually I switched from CG citrus red to their new clean slate wash. It will remove new layers of waxes and sealants extremely easy. It's what it was designed to do. I made a thread about having to remove a fresh layer of sealant and wax on a co workers car.

Just did it over the weekend, used 3oz in my foam cannon and about 6oz in my wash bucket. It took off literally everything on the car and we were talking about product that has only been on a month or so.

But I'm getting the feeling here any time I bring up a fantastic product that works and is not known by AG I get shut down lol"

If he didn't give it an IPA wipe down after the washes, then it's impossible to tell if there were surfactants on the paint from the wash solution that make it "appear" that the LSP is gone because there is no beading. A Dawn wash will do the same thing--there is no beading after a Dawn wash, but if you give it an IPA wipe down (which removes the surfactants) the beading will magically reappear.

If the new CG product actually does remove LSPs it would be a great product, but CG also claims CG Red mixed at one once per gallon will remove existing LSPs. It fails the IPA wipe down test just like Dawn.

Just trying to find out if idriveblackcars eliminated the surfactants.
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A couple of comments:
(1) I tried Menz Top Inspection, which does the same as IPA...it didn't make a dent

(2) People have been using beading or the lack there of, as an indirect method to determine if the LSP is still present. This situation was fortuitous b/c the LSP was actually stained. You could see if it was present or not...no need for an indirect method (beading). To tell the truth, I didn't even bother looking at beading. I looked to see if the section was still pink. If it was, the LSP was still there.
 
motion732 said:
So happy this myth is finally being put to bed. Did you happen to try a clay bar or IPA wipedown? People seem to believe both work. I'd imagine clay COULD work depending on the technique but am more skeptical on IPA.
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(1) When it first happened, I tried my nanoskin (with DA) and clay...neither touched it.
(2) IPA only important if you're using beading as the indicator for the presence of LSP. In this situation, the LSP was stained, so no need for IPA.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I think it's both more simple and more complicated than that at the same time. The presumption that LSP's could be easily stripped with things like Dawn (which I've been hearing since I came to detailing forums a dozen years ago, most famously at that time the Zaino instructions for "stripping" by using Dawn) has created the following conundrum: how important is it to strip if we haven't really been doing it? Is this the reason for different users having different results with the same product? Because one chemically "stripped" while the other actually stripped by polishing? Or have we just been brainwashed into believing there is a difference when there really isn't?

I mean, if the current LSP is firmly attached to the surface, does it help/hinder/neither a subsequent LSP? Does the Dawn (or other "stripper") residue on the surface act as a "primer", and help the new LSP adhere, or does it interfere?

I guess I'm saying that because there has been so much mistaken belief about being able to easily strip LSP's, do we really have the knowledge base we think we do? I mean, if I understand the original post, tenblade actually used P21S paint cleaner by hand and it had no effect...how common a prep was that back in the day? Using a prewax cleaner by hand?

Tenblade: can you confirm that is what you meant, that you used P21S GEPC by hand?
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When the staining first occurred, I tried the prewax cleaner using the p21s applicator (I purchased it with the cleaner). Then, Mike@dedicated suggested I try an aggressive pad with my DA. So, when I did this testing I used a LC hydro-tech Tangerine with my DA. The was a little fading, but the LSP was still there. That lead me to conclude that the prewax cleaner might work for an older LSP, one closer to failing.

Regarding your last point, I think you are on to something. If the LSP is still present, and bonded then what harm is it doing? Its still protecting the paint. As long as it is contaminate free, then the new LSP with either bond to it OR bond to areas where the old LSP is failing.
 
ski2 said:
Puckman--no need to apologize.

CG website states the recommended dilution to remove existing wax and sealant is one ounce per five gallons. This is less than what they recommended for Citrus Wash Red (1 oz per gallon) to remove existing LSPs and that didn't work (even at much stronger dilutions) so I don't see how this will work at 1 oz per 5 gallons.

I really wish it did work as it's something we all could use to make the move from one LSP to another a simple task--just wash, dry and apply the new LSP--no need to drag the polisher out.
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I was using Citrus at a 1oz per gallon (I got that from one of their videos). Another complaint I have about CG...VERY inconsistent info. You can get 3 different answers to a question depending on your source i.e. video vs. forum vs. printed instructions/website.
 
Thanks for posting your results. Mechanical abrasion is my choice too
 
This thread has laid to rest any doubts I had about "topping" my polymer sealers, regardless of my selection of "topper" product. I think I might now simply assume that my sealer is largely intact instead of perpetually wondering. That should free up a fair amount of time for me this summer.
 
Harpolith said:
This thread has laid to rest any doubts I had about "topping" my polymer sealers, regardless of my selection of "topper" product. I think I might now simply assume that my sealer is largely intact instead of perpetually wondering. That should free up a fair amount of time for me this summer.
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I use the "Topper" to add more shine but I think the protection is already there. Glad you found the thread useful.
 
Been crazy busy at work, I didn't see the responses. Here is what I used on my co workers vehicle.

e434a4615b392d5cceaa7276eced629b.jpg


Foamed it with a mix of about 3/4oz of that clean slate with hot water. Let it dwell on the car for about several minutes. (It creates pretty decent foam for a surface paint cleanser)

Then washed off. Proceeded to put a decent amount in the bucket and went over the surface twice. That was Friday night, the car sat overnight after I dried it off and clayed it the next morning. I only used eraser and the ipa mix to wipe down after the car was drenched in glide.

I don't have nearly the experience as most on here but from what I could see,touch and test it didn't seem anything was on the car any longer,paint seemed naked to me. Maybe I'm wrong lol now I'm wondering
 
idriveblackcars said:
Been crazy busy at work, I didn't see the responses. Here is what I used on my co workers vehicle.

e434a4615b392d5cceaa7276eced629b.jpg


Foamed it with a mix of about 3/4oz of that clean slate with hot water. Let it dwell on the car for about several minutes. (It creates pretty decent foam for a surface paint cleanser)

Then washed off. Proceeded to put a decent amount in the bucket and went over the surface twice. That was Friday night, the car sat overnight after I dried it off and clayed it the next morning. I only used eraser and the ipa mix to wipe down after the car was drenched in glide.

I don't have nearly the experience as most on here but from what I could see,touch and test it didn't seem anything was on the car any longer,paint seemed naked to me. Maybe I'm wrong lol now I'm wondering
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All your work removed the contaminates but if the LSP was fresh, it was probably still there. As stated before, I don't think that's a big deal...it was bonded to the paint providing protection. Whatever else added probably affected the amount of gloss and supplemented the LSP already there.
 
tenblade2001 said:
All your work removed the contaminates but if the LSP was fresh, it was probably still there. As stated before, I don't think that's a big deal...it was bonded to the paint providing protection. Whatever else added probably affected the amount of gloss and supplemented the LSP already there.
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I would have to agree with this. Plus you have provided more intensive testing. The paint sure did feel naked though. And responded differently to water as it did 24 hours earlier. But I'm leaning now towards the side of not all the product was removed. I wish I knew how much I got off.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Some of the previous discussion on this topic for you new guys:

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/67096-possible-chemically-strip-sealants.html

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...ock-blackhole-wolfgang-dgps-blackfire-wd.html
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GREAT threads and my findings seem to support your conclusions. I did my test b/c it seems the IPA question always comes up and that's the inherent problem using an indirect measurment i.e. beading. With the LSP being stained we can directly observe when its removed. Hopefully, this baby is one step closer to being put to bed.
 
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