New to AG and Paint Correction

[k20trick]

Hello Guys/Girls,

I am new to AG and paint correction, and wanted to seek some advice.

Ordered my first orbital and pretty stoked on the results. Had the opportunity to test a spot using m105 and m205 using orange and white pad, the results were spectacular. I was always a car washer, sealant, then carnauba paste wax guy, but as soon as I made one pass on the above using the PC, I was blown away, literally! Sealant and wax always amazed me, however I wanted more and 105/205 brought back the clarity, smoothness, and metalic speckles on my paint back to original.

Now the plan is tackling the car into sections, it is a used car and very well maintained, there are love marks (swirl marks) that arent too deep. The thing that bugs me is the water marks on the roof, I havent tried removing them as the test spot was the corner of the trunk, however what would be the best approach at this?

I was successul with the results I wanted using m105 and m205 one pass, am I going to aggressive on the first try? Should I step down to a scratch or swirl remover product to see if the defects will go away? Luckily I have AG forum, youtube friends across the world, instagram local detailers, and Mike complete guide.

Another recommendation I received was to try menzerna products as they have been proven to be easy to use so I ordered a set of compound 400, 2500, and 3500 to test another spot.

My goal here is to do a proper paint correction, removing swirls/scratches (some being deeper), water marks left on the roof. And then coating it with the pinnacle surface coating. And lastly properly maintaining with a proper dual bucket wash, etc... The only problem that I am worried about is that I live in the city of Los Angeles, we have lots of airports, rails, marine, and horrible environment conditions that even correcting the paint and properly maintaining it will be a nightmare due to these conditions. The car is a daily driver.

I plan to tackle quite a few of the work if not everything this weekend.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[Red Hawk]

I have always had good luck removing water spots with a clay bar. Remember, when you lay pad to paint, you are removing layers. Always use the least aggressive method & build up if necessary. Good luck in your ventures.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Hello Guys/Girls,

I am new to AG and paint correction, and wanted to seek some advice.

Welcome to AutogeekOnline!

Ordered my first orbital and pretty stoked on the results. Had the opportunity to test a spot using m105 and m205 using orange and white pad, the results were spectacular. I was always a car washer, sealant, then carnauba paste wax guy, but as soon as I made one pass on the above using the PC, I was blown away, literally! Sealant and wax always amazed me, however I wanted more and 105/205 brought back the clarity, smoothness, and metalic speckles on my paint back to original.

And just to comment... you could never get these kinds of results by hand...

You can clean the paint surface by hand and you can apply a wax by hand but the average person doesn't possess the skill, muscle or technique to actually remove swirls and scratches by hand.

Now the plan is tackling the car into sections, it is a used car and very well maintained, there are love marks (swirl marks) that arent too deep. The thing that bugs me is the water marks on the roof, I havent tried removing them as the test spot was the corner of the trunk, however what would be the best approach at this?

If you're using a PC or Porter Cable 7424XP then a couple of comments...


First, water spots, especially Type II water spots and these are crater etchings where there's actually a kind of hole in the clearcoat, are the worst paint defect in my opinion to have to remove. IF they are only on the roof and the car is a DAILY DRIVER then I would recommend only improving them not trying to 100% remove them because to remove them you may end up removing a lot of the precious and THIN clearcoat.

If the car is a daily driver then chances are they may just come back again, depends on where you park the car and where the source of the water spots originates.

If you do want to remove them 100% then get a Lake Country ThinPro pad because they rotate GREAT on PC type tools and get the orange cutting pad to use with the M105. There is a gray cutting pad that is even more aggressive and we used it for just this purpose but be careful and the gray pads are SHARP and will cut fast.


WE removed Type II Water Spots out of the basecoat/clearcoat paint job on this old 2-door Chevy. We tried using the ORANGE ThinPro pads but they were not aggressive enough so we switched to the GRAY.


1955 Chevy Bel Air with a $15,000.00 Custom Paint Job - How to remove water spots

Here's the owner Guy machine polishing for the first time on his $15,000.00 paint job on his incredible 1955 Bel Air

Now everyone is getting busy...

Guy and his buddy Jay

I understand why people use Facebook but the fact is... you simply cannot share things like the above on FB. The interface just doesn't work so in my opinion, it doesn't work as well for teaching or learning. Just my own rant.



To the OP - More information about our process in the actually write-up plus lots of great pictures. And note, the owner Guy is using a PC and this is his FIRST time machine polishing.


1955 Chevy Bel Air with a $15,000.00 Custom Paint Job - How to remove water spots

and Mike complete guide.

Thank you for your purchase and your trust.

Another recommendation I received was to try Menzerna products as they have been proven to be easy to use so I ordered a set of compound 400, 2500, and 3500 to test another spot.

Menzerna makes great products and uses great abrasive technology. In my opinion and my experience, abrasive technology is the most important factor when polishing clearcoat paints.

My goal here is to do a proper paint correction, removing swirls/scratches (some being deeper), water marks left on the roof. And then coating it with the pinnacle surface coating. And lastly properly maintaining with a proper dual bucket wash, etc... The only problem that I am worried about is that I live in the city of Los Angeles, we have lots of airports, rails, marine, and horrible environment conditions that even correcting the paint and properly maintaining it will be a nightmare due to these conditions. The car is a daily driver.

I love and use the Pinnacle Black Label Surface Coating on my wife's Mercedes-Benz with a perfect finish. For my own truck, a 1987 Silverado sitting on 40s, I use a one-step cleaner/wax because it is a daily driver.

While I love how fast and easy the wife's MB washes and dries, and how the paint looks so glassy all of the time, Los Angeles is a very dirty area to live. I know, I taught detailing classes at Meguiar's in Irvine, California for 7 years. Tons of dirt and pollution in the air in LA.

My recommendation is to find a great, light cutting one-step cleaner/wax and use it often. That's what I do and "most" of the time my truck looks great. I need to machine wax her right now, might even do it this week.

I plan to tackle quite a few of the work if not everything this weekend.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

Update this thread and let us know your status with this project.

Are you working on a Chevy K20 truck?

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

If you need the link, here it is... note these are for use with a 5" backing plate

Lake Country ThinPro Foam Pad System 5.5 Inch




Lots of tips, techniques and recommendations in this new video...


Best video ever on how to machine buff a car from start to finish

 

[Whitewater25]

Sounds like an ambitious weekend,best of luck & welcome to your new addiction.

 

[k20trick]

Welcome to AutogeekOnline!




And just to comment... you could never get these kinds of results by hand...

You can clean the paint surface by hand and you can apply a wax by hand but the average person doesn't possess the skill, muscle or technique to actually remove swirls and scratches by hand.





If you're using a PC or Porter Cable 7424XP then a couple of comments...


First, water spots, especially Type II water spots and these are crater etchings where there's actually a kind of hole in the clearcoat, are the worst paint defect in my opinion to have to remove. IF they are only on the roof and the car is a DAILY DRIVER then I would recommend only improving them not trying to 100% remove them because to remove them you may end up removing a lot of the precious and THIN clearcoat.

If the car is a daily driver then chances are they may just come back again, depends on where you park the car and where the source of the water spots originates.

If you do want to remove them 100% then get a Lake Country ThinPro pad because they rotate GREAT on PC type tools and get the orange cutting pad to use with the M105. There is a gray cutting pad that is even more aggressive and we used it for just this purpose but be careful and the gray pads are SHARP and will cut fast.


WE removed Type II Water Spots out of the basecoat/clearcoat paint job on this old 2-door Chevy. We tried using the ORANGE ThinPro pads but they were not aggressive enough so we switched to the GRAY.


1955 Chevy Bel Air with a $15,000.00 Custom Paint Job - How to remove water spots

Here's the owner Guy machine polishing for the first time on his $15,000.00 paint job on his incredible 1955 Bel Air

Now everyone is getting busy...

Guy and his buddy Jay

I understand why people use Facebook but the fact is... you simply cannot share things like the above on FB. The interface just doesn't work so in my opinion, it doesn't work as well for teaching or learning. Just my own rant.



To the OP - More information about our process in the actually write-up plus lots of great pictures. And note, the owner Guy is using a PC and this is his FIRST time machine polishing.


1955 Chevy Bel Air with a $15,000.00 Custom Paint Job - How to remove water spots







Thank you for your purchase and your trust.





Menzerna makes great products and uses great abrasive technology. In my opinion and my experience, abrasive technology is the most important factor when polishing clearcoat paints.




I love and use the Pinnacle Black Label Surface Coating on my wife's Mercedes-Benz with a perfect finish. For my own truck, a 1987 Silverado sitting on 40s, I use a one-step cleaner/wax because it is a daily driver.

While I love how fast and easy the wife's MB washes and dries, and how the paint looks so glassy all of the time, Los Angeles is a very dirty area to live. I know, I taught detailing classes at Meguiar's in Irvine, California for 7 years. Tons of dirt and pollution in the air in LA.

My recommendation is to find a great, light cutting one-step cleaner/wax and use it often. That's what I do and "most" of the time my truck looks great. I need to machine wax her right now, might even do it this week.






Update this thread and let us know your status with this project.

Are you working on a Chevy K20 truck?

Hey Mike, I do appreciate the detailed response, that was quite a good information to read and a lot of help. I really love your articles and the passion that you put into them. BTW, That is a fabulous Bel-Air!

Just to follow up on a few things, I've actually invested in the Rupes during the past and have been playing around with it correcting little spots here and there for friends, it is a great machine and you can truly appreciate the quality in it. I really purchased it because I have few cars to buff out, and wanted to move out of the pc.

Regarding the water spots, I left them alone at the diminished rate as you said. I noticed the spots were on the car when I purchased the car used, but didn't inspect it thoroughly and didn't expect much of it until I got it under a light looking at it at multiple angles which got me more depressed which is when I tried purchased the PC to remove them. I do want to go back at it and try to diminish them a little further problem is I think my paint has a factory defect. There are uniform divots across all of the painted areas and when corrected using a pc with 105/205 the scratches swirls were removed (few rids remained), the divots remanned and seemed like they were under the paint, I only did the trunk/roof/hood as they were in the worst condition. The paint feels smooth, but these divots pinholes that are even uniform and seem like they are under the paint are all across the whole paint system. I tried a small test spot moved up to the microfiber pads 105 and did two more passes and it did cut through a lot of them, but they still remained. At that point I called it quits because I didn't know how much paint I was removing and did not want to compromise the paint system. Why my paint has this issue I don't know. I buffed a another couple cars and they were flawless. For my car under the sun the paint looks brand new, but under the light a few inches away I can notice these divots.

Do you know what they are and would you be able to advise if I should go further? Or should I just leave it as it because it the sun the flakes just pop out. I really want to go far with the car, problem is I don't know what the limit where I start jeopardizing the paint system. From a view from a Pro like you, I'm sure countless cars have been done whereas from my I like to work slower, but when I see gaining results I keep going because Ive never hit the limit before. And I think thats a problem a lot of beginners will face. Going past the point of no return.:nomore:

The car is a lexus with very soft paint. I don't have a k20 chevy truck, however I do have a heart for k20 engines that honda released back in the days.

Sorry im not posting the picture right but in the pic below there are little pin holes in the paint system.

By light cutting cleaner wax are you referring to something like meguiars quick detailer, hd speed, menzerna 3in1, or griots finishing sealant? That is actually great advice, but I want to make this one more show car and remove all the blemishes that came with the car :bestwishes:

The paint became super glossy and the flakes just pop out now, however I'm left with a million of these cratered pin holes that the swirls and scratches were hiding. This is without waxes or sealants just brought the car outside in the sun to check the progress.


'

YEs and LA is a very contaminated city, airports, railroads, pollutions, ocean, all within 5-10 miles of each other plus it seems like the streets are over crowded and the roads are very compact, its very congested..

 

[k20trick]

Sounds like an ambitious weekend,best of luck & welcome to your new addiction.

Thanks buddy! I actually professionally detail for friends and family as well. They never have to go to the car wash now. Weekly ONR' rinse less and xpress wax keeps them happy and their cars well maintained. I do plan to correct them and coat them, hopefully in 2017 I'll get to do a lot more paint correction because they don't tend to go back to the bad habits (automatic washes) after I shown them the pitfalls of how aggressive those washes are and the 2 year old shammys they still use to dry cars

 

[wing commander]

What year is the Lexus? The paint is nice however the clear looks like it may have a problem.

 

[k20trick]

What year is the Lexus? The paint is nice however the clear looks like it may have a problem.

It is a 2012... weird that the finish feels smooth as butter but the divots feels like it'll catch a fingernail looking like that. Still a drastic improvement the trunk was in horrible condition.

 

[k20trick]

What year is the Lexus? The paint is nice however the clear looks like it may have a problem.

Hello, I also have a neighbor with the same car and his paint has the same issue except his is a lot more swirled out so the owner doesn't notice. I have to literally point it out to him with the right light. It seems like this is a toyota paint issue to me or the car was really neglected with the prior owner. I have also have a toyota that I buffed out and it looks immaculate and that car is 10 years older so there is definitely something going on with the paint.

Ive noticed two other same cars and colors were buffed out by zmcgovern and detail miami however their pictures are from far away so you don't notice whats really going on with the paint as they have been glossed up by coatings/sealants/waxes and I'm not clear whether they had this issue or not.

Not sure whats going on, Im not sure if I should leave it alone or go for another pass. I did two additional passes and it was noticeably better however without a thickness gauge im not sure how much paint I removed during the process. I will however order one soon and see if its acceptable paint left in that area and proceed.

If anyone else can chime in please let me know.

 

[zmcgovern45]

Ive noticed two other same cars and colors were buffed out by zmcgovern and detail miami however their pictures are from far away so you don't notice whats really going on with the paint as they have been glossed up by coatings/sealants/waxes and I'm not clear whether they had this issue or not.

Not sure whats going on, Im not sure if I should leave it alone or go for another pass. I did two additional passes and it was noticeably better however without a thickness gauge im not sure how much paint I removed during the process. I will however order one soon and see if its acceptable paint left in that area and proceed.

If anyone else can chime in please let me know.

I believe I have sent you this photo before when you had asked me about this...

... but I think it is pretty clear this vehicle does not have the pitted clear coat you show on your car.


You had mentioned your paint is very soft, this is interesting to me as Lexus metallic paints are typically not all that soft. The Ultrasonic blue F that I worked on belongs to a very close friend, so I see the car regularly, and the paint was not what I would call soft. The photo above is after Griot's Garage Fast Correcting Cream on a Microfiber cutting pad, yet the finish was very good. Particularly soft paint is left very hazy after this type of process.

As I have told you before when we were discussing your issue, I think it appears to be an issue with the paint itself, not a result of poor washing, water spots, or anything like that. You had mentioned that this is on all of the panels, correct? If it were isolated to just a few then I would say it is likely the vehicle had been repaired. It is still possible the entire car was repainted, though since your neighbor has the same car/color with the same issues that would be pretty slim chance that both were repainted and show the same issues.

I do not think compounding any more will have much of a result, so the next step would be to experiment with some sandpaper to see if you can make any progress. This is where you need to ask yourself the question "Is it worth it?"... because once you break out the sandpaper, the amount of work increases considerably and so do the risks.

 

[Paul A.]

Welcome k20trick and i'll be following what is already a very informative post!

 

[k20trick]

I believe I have sent you this photo before when you had asked me about this...

... but I think it is pretty clear this vehicle does not have the pitted clear coat you show on your car.


You had mentioned your paint is very soft, this is interesting to me as Lexus metallic paints are typically not all that soft. The Ultrasonic blue F that I worked on belongs to a very close friend, so I see the car regularly, and the paint was not what I would call soft. The photo above is after Griot's Garage Fast Correcting Cream on a Microfiber cutting pad, yet the finish was very good. Particularly soft paint is left very hazy after this type of process.

As I have told you before when we were discussing your issue, I think it appears to be an issue with the paint itself, not a result of poor washing, water spots, or anything like that. You had mentioned that this is on all of the panels, correct? If it were isolated to just a few then I would say it is likely the vehicle had been repaired. It is still possible the entire car was repainted, though since your neighbor has the same car/color with the same issues that would be pretty slim chance that both were repainted and show the same issues.

I do not think compounding any more will have much of a result, so the next step would be to experiment with some sandpaper to see if you can make any progress. This is where you need to ask yourself the question "Is it worth it?"... because once you break out the sandpaper, the amount of work increases considerably and so do the risks.

Hey Zach, how are you? That is a gorgeous USB ISF you detailed and corrected, is it Emkurths?

Yes, I am assuming this was soft paint, but you are correct I was not experiencing any hazing. The scratches came off pretty quick, maybe I went too aggressive (m105, orange, pc) so I was thinking it was on the softer side compared to other cars. I tried 205 at that point but it did not get far and wasn't removing the swirls and scratches effectively. My friends black lexus has this issue as well and his car is fairly new and well maintained.

Yes I am bummed out because im pretty sure its the paint system as well, but I'm not pro, just a guy that wants that perfect finish everyone is after. These defects actually reach into the inner edges of the body panels not sure if the matters but it seems the door pillars (soft black trim) has this issue too. Maybe its just like you said I may have been unlucky from the factory, I wish I knew.

I was thinking about sandpaper, but buffing the car already felt scary for me because it wasn't something I was comfortable with until I got my first da. Maybe once I get more practice and better at it I'll try it out, but I did order one of those thickness gauges to see where Im at with paint. I got the highline you did a review on. Hopefully I can go to town and measure some of the little areas I did to see whats left or at least get a ballpark figure.

Thanks for your response.rops:

 

[k20trick]

rops:

Welcome k20trick and i'll be following what is already a very informative post!

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I do not think compounding any more will have much of a result, so the next step would be to experiment with some sandpaper to see if you can make any progress.

This is where you need to ask yourself the question "Is it worth it?"... because once you break out the sandpaper, the amount of work increases considerably and so do the risks.

I agree.


I would just add that if the car in question is a daily driver, not a garage queen, sunny days only show car, then it's a good idea to find balance.

Balance between creating the absolute, 100% flawless show car finish and getting the paint to 95% of its potential. A person can drive themselves insane striving for perfection even for a show car let alone a daily driver.


Two articles to consider... pictures in the below article make the point especially when the topic of wet sanding comes up...


Clearcoats are thin by Mike Phillips


And this one is more directed at all the guys I've met in my life that don't polish out their cars because "someday" they're going to do a body-off-frame restoration, (that never happens), but the bigger picture would be taking what you have and making it as good as possible within reason...

"Taking your car's paint to it's maximum potential"

 

[zmcgovern45]

Hey Zach, how are you? That is a gorgeous USB ISF you detailed and corrected, is it Emkurths?

Yes it is.

Yes, I am assuming this was soft paint, but you are correct I was not experiencing any hazing. The scratches came off pretty quick, maybe I went too aggressive (m105, orange, pc) so I was thinking it was on the softer side compared to other cars. I tried 205 at that point but it did not get far and wasn't removing the swirls and scratches effectively.

The fact that M205 did not have much of an effect confirms my assumption that you're not dealing with very soft paint. Really soft paint can have micromarring/haze after M205 on a polishing pad, and it will remove swirls with ease in that scenario. If you weren't seeing marring with M105 then the paint does not fall into the soft category in my book.

Yes I am bummed out because im pretty sure its the paint system as well, but I'm not pro, just a guy that wants that perfect finish everyone is after. These defects actually reach into the inner edges of the body panels not sure if the matters but it seems the door pillars (soft black trim) has this issue too. Maybe its just like you said I may have been unlucky from the factory, I wish I knew.

I was thinking about sandpaper, but buffing the car already felt scary for me because it wasn't something I was comfortable with until I got my first da. Maybe once I get more practice and better at it I'll try it out, but I did order one of those thickness gauges to see where Im at with paint. I got the highline you did a review on. Hopefully I can go to town and measure some of the little areas I did to see whats left or at least get a ballpark figure.

Thanks for your response.rops:

As Mike mentioned, you've got to find a balance... chances are the car is already better than 98% of all other cars on the road, so you've just got to deal with some of the remaining imperfections OR make the decision to push further at the risk of compromising your paint system which would require repainting to fix.

My previous car (IS250) had some poor repaint issues (fisheyes) that bugged me so much for 4 years that I eventually sold the car because it annoyed me.

 

[k20trick]

Yes it is.


The fact that M205 did not have much of an effect confirms my assumption that you're not dealing with very soft paint. Really soft paint can have micromarring/haze after M205 on a polishing pad, and it will remove swirls with ease in that scenario. If you weren't seeing marring with M105 then the paint does not fall into the soft category in my book.


As Mike mentioned, you've got to find a balance... chances are the car is already better than 98% of all other cars on the road, so you've just got to deal with some of the remaining imperfections OR make the decision to push further at the risk of compromising your paint system which would require repainting to fix.

My previous car (IS250) had some poor repaint issues (fisheyes) that bugged me so much for 4 years that I eventually sold the car because it annoyed me.

When I bumped up to mf pads as you recommended it did leave haze but I was able to cut through more of the defects leaving more of a desirable finish for me, I just wasnt sure if I should proceed further without more precautions and I did get the highline meter to ballpark how much paint im removing. I'm not sure how much more aggressive 105 is to the fast correcting cream you were using however...

By any chance do do you have any pictures of the hood/trunk/roof on that usb isf? It seems thats were the pitting is most noticeable.

I checked one of the videos Larry at AMMO did and it seems like this honda fit has the exact same issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z63QAlLMgSM&t=16s wish I really knew what was going on as this defect isnt in the books. What really causes it? Can it be avoided?

The is250 you had was a sweat car, but the isf you upgraded is by far on a whole different league.

 

[The Guz]

It looks like a paint defect from the factory. You are able to see them due to removing the paint defects that were hiding them. I had the same issue on my Pontiac Grand Prix on the factory paint on the roof. I learned to live with them. They were exposed once I compounded the paint.

If you even need some pointers feel free to contact me. I am in the area. Also Meguiar;s has their Thursday Night Garages. You can find more information on their forum.

 

[k20trick]

It looks like a paint defect from the factory. You are able to see them due to removing the paint defects that were hiding them. I had the same issue on my Pontiac Grand Prix on the factory paint on the roof. I learned to live with them. They were exposed once I compounded the paint.

If you even need some pointers feel free to contact me. I am in the area. Also Meguiar;s has their Thursday Night Garages. You can find more information on their forum.

Hey Guz, great to know sucks for me I guess... Your from Lawndale right? I have been trying to go to the Meguiars classes I love their products and for is of the brands I trust most because they simply work (although there are a few products I avoid, most I enjoy . I love how you can save with their professional line by buying gallons at a time.

I actually reached how to someone who can wetsand and does it on a regular basis but he wanted $3k plus for the job thats when I figured 3k is a lot of money and I could probably learn on my own. I would love to go to those meguiars classes. I tried to before but I think the registration was full. I have basically been learning on the bucket that sits outside working panel by panel lol. Takes a long time but I can be more careful working slow like this. Still need help with buffing smaller tigher areas, sharp body lines etc... Dust management and working clean.

I'll go ahead and make sure to sign up over in the forum.

 

[The Guz]

Hey Guz, great to know sucks for me I guess... Your from Lawndale right? I have been trying to go to the Meguiars classes I love their products and for is of the brands I trust most because they simply work (although there are a few products I avoid, most I enjoy . I love how you can save with their professional line by buying gallons at a time.

I actually reached how to someone who can wetsand and does it on a regular basis but he wanted $3k plus for the job thats when I figured 3k is a lot of money and I could probably learn on my own. I would love to go to those meguiars classes. I tried to before but I think the registration was full. I have basically been learning on the bucket that sits outside working panel by panel lol. Takes a long time but I can be more careful working slow like this. Still need help with buffing smaller tigher areas, sharp body lines etc... Dust management and working clean.

I'll go ahead and make sure to sign up over in the forum.

Yeah I am in the Lawndale area near the Torrance/Redondo Beach area.

For the thursday classes you can just show up. The saturday one's Meguiar's prefers to have folks sign up. I chose to live with them as it was my daily driver.