Having trouble polishing out swirl marks - Griots Garage 3 Inch Orbital Polisher + Menzerna Heavy Cut Compound 1000

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cobalt60

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Hi, to start, this is not an auto project. Rather, I've been using automotive clear coat on wood surfaces for final finish. Process is:

1) HVLP spray clear coat (I've used a Nason product and something called TRUE clear)
2) Sand to flat (meaning remove any wood grain, pores, or other non-flat features )
3) Spray coat of same clear coat (mostly to ensure I don't sand through / burn through)
4) Sand starting with 1500 up to 2000 (remove orange peel with 1500, just remove sanding marks with 2000)
5) Apply Menzerna Heavy Cut Compound 1000, polish using Griots Garage 3 Inch Orbital Polisher at speed setting 6 most of the time
6) Apply Menzerna FF 3000, polish using Griots Garage 3 Inch Orbital Polisher (different foam pad!), speed setting 4-5

Final surface is beautiful in most lights, and has a nice "wet" look. Only when I put it under very bright LED light will I spot the circular swirlies, left by the orbital (my assumption is this is from step 5). I've tried many times now, and many different techniques, pressure levels, times at Max Speed, etc. but nothing really makes much difference. I've also tried different amounts of the HCC 1000, from a very light amount to almost a glaze (the latter splatters everywhere, I'm sure you all knew that would happen).

The surfaces I'm polishing are not very large - coffee table at most, and I'm happy to experiment as needed to make this perfect.

Any thoughts? Thanks!
 
The power behind the 3" GG may not be enough to remove the swirls. It's a rather lacking machine for correcting.
 
Ah shoot - I was kinda wondering if that might be the issue. Any idea how best to test that idea? I guess a test of the same clear coat, same process, but a proven polisher would be good -- I just don't have any friends who do this kind of work, or else I'd be bugging them right now!

Any specific 3" tool that you'd recommend as reliable in this area?

Too bad if that's the case, given the "Remove Swirls" line in thier product headline, but maybe I'm not totally understanding.
Griots Garage 3 Inch Orbital Polisher, 3 Inch Polisher, 3 inch Dual Action Polisher, 3" buffer
 
cobalt60 said:
Hi, to start, this is not an auto project. Rather, I've been using automotive clear coat on wood surfaces for final finish. Process is:

1) HVLP spray clear coat (I've used a Nason product and something called TRUE clear)
2) Sand to flat (meaning remove any wood grain, pores, or other non-flat features )
3) Spray coat of same clear coat (mostly to ensure I don't sand through / burn through)
4) Sand starting with 1500 up to 2000 (remove orange peel with 1500, just remove sanding marks with 2000)
5) Apply Menzerna Heavy Cut Compound 1000, polish using Griots Garage 3 Inch Orbital Polisher at speed setting 6 most of the time
6) Apply Menzerna FF 3000, polish using Griots Garage 3 Inch Orbital Polisher (different foam pad!), speed setting 4-5

Final surface is beautiful in most lights, and has a nice "wet" look. Only when I put it under very bright LED light will I spot the circular swirlies, left by the orbital (my assumption is this is from step 5). I've tried many times now, and many different techniques, pressure levels, times at Max Speed, etc. but nothing really makes much difference. I've also tried different amounts of the HCC 1000, from a very light amount to almost a glaze (the latter splatters everywhere, I'm sure you all knew that would happen).

The surfaces I'm polishing are not very large - coffee table at most, and I'm happy to experiment as needed to make this perfect.

Any thoughts? Thanks!
Click to expand...

As mentioned, the 3" lacks power. Get a Griot 6" and a 3.5" backing plate. Now you can run 6" pads on larger surfaces and 4" pads on smaller areas.
I prefer Menzerna polishes, but if on a budget, Meg's Ultimate Compound and Polish will do.
Slow arm movement (1" per second) with 15lbs. of pressure is the key to getting outstanding results.
 
Hey OP,

What pads are you using with the machine? The Griots 3" machine definitely lacks power compare to other smaller machines. However; check out this article that Mike Phillips wrote about some new pads that make that machine a bit better:

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...ure-going-love-these-new-small-foam-pads.html

Since you are using a 3" setup, I am assuming you're not working on a huge surface. My recommendation would possible be a rotary with 3" setup for cutting and then finishing with your current machine.
 
cobalt60 said:
Ah shoot - I was kinda wondering if that might be the issue. Any idea how best to test that idea? I guess a test of the same clear coat, same process, but a proven polisher would be good -- I just don't have any friends who do this kind of work, or else I'd be bugging them right now!

Any specific 3" tool that you'd recommend as reliable in this area?If your willing to spend the bucks (3+bills), get the Rupes Mini Polisher.

Too bad if that's the case, given the "Remove Swirls" line in thier product headline, but maybe I'm not totally understanding.
Griots Garage 3 Inch Orbital Polisher, 3 Inch Polisher, 3 inch Dual Action Polisher, 3" buffer
Click to expand...
:buffing:
 
Thanks again:

-- I'll look to see if I can borrow a 6" from somewhere, and test against my setup. If it "just works," then I'll switch machines (a bit disappointing, as I'm not sure what the GG is for, exactly, then, but OK)

BUT... hope I don't seem like I'm ignoring these tips...

I'd like to try those thinner foam pads, based on that article you linked. I've only used the thick ones that came with the GG 3".

To clarify, should I use the ORANGE pad with the HCC 1000, then WHITE with FF 3000?


Thanks again you all!



EDIT: I just went ahead and ordered a six-pack of those thin-pro pads - 1 grey, 2 orange, and 3 white. We'll see - happy to report results if folks care!
 
Definitely the polisher, pretty useless really. I actually use Metabo rotary right angle grinder on slowest speed with 1" or 2" pads. Does pretty good.
 
Just some updates if anyone cares to follow:
I tried again tonight with the Griot's Garage 3" and Menzerna HCC 1000. Sanded only up to 1500, but I kept all sanding marks in one direction (in the wood-grain direction) just to be certain that the swirls were NOT sanding marks.

Result #1:
View attachment 50945

Result #2:
View attachment 50943


... bad...


Someone recommended trying a 3" foam pad (ones that came with the GG) on just a regular cordless drill, set to fast-speed. That worked maybe a bit better, but actually not 100%. Pics are after a pass of Menzerna FF3000, just to be fair:

View attachment 50946

and:
View attachment 50947



Frustrating part is that it looks pretty good in "normal" light. The swirls really just shine when under really bright LEDS:

View attachment 50944


Anyway, is there anything else I should try? Is there a different combination of compounds that might be more compatible with this tool?

...Or should I just accept the disappointment that the GG tool is not actually going to do what it's advertised it's capable of?

Thanks again!
 
SKorch630 said:
I'd use the GG 3" as a canoe anchor maybe
Click to expand...


Ha, but daaamn.... I threw away the packaging so I'm sure a return isn't an option.

For those who feel I should try a different orbital - can you recommend a brand and model of 3" tool for me to check out? Much appreciated again, everyone!



So when the Griot's Garage tool is promoted as being able to do this work, is that just "creative marketing" on their part?
 
CarolinasFinestDetailing said:
Hey OP,

What pads are you using with the machine? The Griots 3" machine definitely lacks power compare to other smaller machines. However; check out this article that Mike Phillips wrote about some new pads that make that machine a bit better:

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...ure-going-love-these-new-small-foam-pads.html

Since you are using a 3" setup, I am assuming you're not working on a huge surface. My recommendation would possible be a rotary with 3" setup for cutting and then finishing with your current machine.
Click to expand...


Thanks again for this note - I ordered these pads and appreciate the help. If anyone cares, I'll post results, since I assume I cannot return the tool. Would be wonderful if it would do what it says it should :(
 
I'd take a different approach--first of all, the Power Gloss/HCC 1000 is kind of a rocks in a bottle compound--you might try FG400, which will finish out much better. The other thing is to sand up past 2000 so you don't need to use a compound, for headlights I go to 3000 then 5000 with my GG 3", and then you can just go to polish (note that I do the polishing with a PC with 4" pads because of the aforementioned lack of grunt from the GG 3"). But you'll probably be able to work it out with the GG 3" if you sand up to 5K.

Meguiars Unigrit Finishing Discs, paint finishing discs, Meguiars finishing grit discs

MIRKA Abralon Sanding Discs

3M Trizact 3 Inch 5000 Grit Foam Disc 30362, sanding discs, 3m spot repair discs

Edit: Oops--where is Mike Phillips? I saw so many responses to this thread I didn't realize it was in his sub-forum. I'm sure he'll have the best advice for you. And now that I've had some coffee, I also realize you are going from a compound to a fine polish--back in the day when HCC was the premier Menzerna compound, you would normally follow a compound with an intermediate polish like Intensive Polish or later SIP (which I guess now is MC2400) before progressing to the finish polish.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I'd take a different approach--first of all, the Power Gloss/HCC 1000 is kind of a rocks in a bottle compound--you might try FG400, which will finish out much better. The other thing is to sand up past 2000 so you don't need to use a compound, for headlights I go to 3000 then 5000 with my GG 3", and then you can just go to polish (note that I do the polishing with a PC with 4" pads because of the aforementioned lack of grunt from the GG 3"). But you'll probably be able to work it out with the GG 3" if you sand up to 5K.

Meguiars Unigrit Finishing Discs, paint finishing discs, Meguiars finishing grit discs

MIRKA Abralon Sanding Discs

3M Trizact 3 Inch 5000 Grit Foam Disc 30362, sanding discs, 3m spot repair discs

Edit: Oops--where is Mike Phillips? I saw so many responses to this thread I didn't realize it was in his sub-forum. I'm sure he'll have the best advice for you. And now that I've had some coffee, I also realize you are going from a compound to a fine polish--back in the day when HCC was the premier Menzerna compound, you would normally follow a compound with an intermediate polish like Intensive Polish or later SIP (which I guess now is MC2400) before progressing to the finish polish.
Click to expand...


I'd like to explore this idea, too. I promise I'm not irrationally obsessed with making the GG work, but I just have it here so I'd like to keep trying before I declare it a loss.


One note I'd add, perhaps in response to the discs: I generally try to keep my finishes as thin as possible -- since it's an acoustic (not electric), the sound quality of the final product is affected if the finish is thick, rubbery, or heavy. Think applying a Dynamat to the top. I say this just to ask if those discs might risk sanding through, more so than the compound approach?


Actually, on a broader level, I should say that I'm not committed to the Menzerna products I list AT ALL. I'd be delighted if anything at all worked well, and I'm very happy to experiment at this point.

Another person recommended the 3M Perfect-it system, a three-part product. Any thoughts on that, too?


Seriously, thanks again to you all, for your input. I don't have folks who can give advice from experience otherwise!



EDIT: Regarding the 3M option, is the EX or 3000 line the one to go with?
EX: http://www.autogeek.net/3m-36060.html
or 3000: http://www.autogeek.net/3m-perfect-it-rubbing-compound.html
 
cobalt60 said:
I say this just to ask if those discs might risk sanding through, more so than the compound approach?



Another person recommended the 3M Perfect-it system, a three-part product. Any thoughts on that, too?[/url]
Click to expand...

Some members have experimented and argued that sanding removes less paint than compounding to remove defects; you're already using 1500 and 2000 grit sandpaper. Finer paper of course removes less material. When I sand headlights, I follow the Meguiar's recommendations, which are 500, 800, 1000, 3000, wool/compound, foam/polish, except I go from 3000 to 5000 and skip the compound (of course you only start at 500 or 800 if you need it).

Mike Phillips is the sanding expert, hopefully he will chime in, but I think I got the idea of using the 5000 Trizact discs instead of compounding based on a thread he posted about it. In your case, if 1500 is working for you, you could start there, then go to 3000 and then 5000, so you're really only doing one more sanding step and your last two are much less aggressive than now.

As far as 2-step vs. 3-step, as I mentioned earlier, if you go back 10 or 12 years, 3-step was the accepted method, compound/medium polish/fine polish. But with today's abrasive technology, you really only need 2 steps under most circumstances.
 
Thanks, very interesting all around on the compound vs. paper ideas.

To put a finer point on the 2- vs. 3-step question -- I'm wondering if the 3M 3-stage process might "actually just work" using the GG 3" tool, now that I seem fairly sure the 2-step will not work.
 
You seem to have good polishes. Try the new pads when they come. Are you using a real slow are speed, overlapping motions, and a bit of pressure on the first pass or 2?
 
cobalt60 said:
To put a finer point on the 2- vs. 3-step question -- I'm wondering if the 3M 3-stage process might "actually just work" using the GG 3" tool, now that I seem fairly sure the 2-step will not work.
Click to expand...

A two-step would work, but not the two steps you are using. You are using Menz polishes from the dark ages, if I'm not mistaken that FF3000 used to be known as FPI, which no one liked and was supplanted by FPII, which they don't make anymore. Back then you would use Power Gloss (HC1000), followed by Intensive Polish (PO91E), followed by FP1 (FF3000).

Today you would compound with FG400 and follow with SF3500 to get the same results. These polishes are more expensive than the ones you are using (for a reason). Take a look here: Menzerna, Menzerna Polishing Compounds Products, Menzerna FMJ, menzerna polishes, menzerna car polish, menzerna nano polish, menzerna final polish,
 
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