What do we do when a customer brings in a coated car?

waelwell

waelwell

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Last week a customer brought in a 2011 Jaguar XJS. He said the paint was "trashed" and nothing else (I didn't book the job so I didn't talk to him). He paid for a 3-step paint correction package. As I started to wash the car, I noticed the paint was beading water like nobody's business. Hummmm... When I started to polish it, I finally clued in that something wasn't right. First, there were two kinds of scratches on the car. There were smaller scratches that, with great effort, I could buff out. Then there were longer scratches that I couldn't feel and I couldn't buff out. In addition, it looks like there were brush marks under the clear coat. So I called the guy and asked him if his car has a coating on it. He said that he didn't think so. But he did say that there was some sort of brochure from the dealer in the glove box. Once I figured out how to open the glove box, I found an X-Coat brochure. OK, mysteries solved - the car was poorly prepared (leaving scratches under the coating) before having a crappy coating installation (leaving the "brush marks" in the coating). The marks in the coating aren't why I'm writing but I know you guys are curious so here are are couple pictures.

View attachment 52754 View attachment 52755

To wrap up that story, I worked my ass off buffing the car and put a coat of wax on it (because he paid for it). I didn't point out the defects in the coating application to the customer. The customer was very happy with the results. I explained that in the future he should tell detailers that the car was coated.

But all this makes me want to get a few questions answered. Here you go:

#1 - If a car comes in with an unknown history, is there a way to tell for sure if it has a coating? Don't say that water will bead on the surface. Water beads on a waxed car too.

#2 - For those of you who are professional detailers, what services do you offer customers with coated cars?

#3 - Coatings are supposed to be scratch resistant. Well, I've got pictures to prove they aren't. But I can tell you that they are tough as hell to buff out. Is anyone out there developing products or techniques for buffing out scratches in coated paint?

#4 - Generally, what is your philosophy for dealing with coated cars?

Bill
 
Charge more and communicate the promblem.If he deosnt believe you show him in person.
 
Did you strip car before polishing to reveal naked paint?
 
GKSR - shouldn't you be hunkering down for the hurricane? Dude, be safe.

Regarding your "Charge more and communicate..." comment - I guess I'm old school. To charge more, I'd have to provide more value. The guy paid for a wash, nanoskin, Iron-X, 2 stages of polish, and wax. That's what I gave him but he really didn't need the wax and was the nanoskin & Iron-X a waste of time as well? So what additional value would I be charging for? I can imagine the reaction of people if detailers start charging more to work on coated cars (vs. uncoated cars).

Regarding your "Did you strip the car..." question, I have no idea how to strip the coating off a car. No I didn't strip the coating off. And part of my post was about the fact that the owner didn't know it was coated and I didn't either until I started polishing it.

Be safe through the storm,

Bill
 
if you gave him the 3 step that he wanted that would have taken off the coating
also nothing is scratch resistant, if it was then it would be the only one LSP to rule them all, coatings make it harder for things to scratch them as they are more hydrophobic but they are not 100% resistant
 
It sounds like your customer's full of it.. I find it hard to believe he didn't know whether it was coated or not, yet he was very aware of the brochure in his glove box. Do you seriously believe he never looked at it? If he ended up being a customer wanting a full 3 step correction you better believe he did and was looking to get it fixed. Nothing wrong with him wanting it fixed of course, but if you ran into a ton more work than you had originally planned for because of it, then there's nothing wrong with explaining that to the customer and trying to work out a fair resolution, that way you don't wind up getting the short end of the stick.
 
Btw, what polisher, pads, and products did you use on this car?
 
Re coating removal, theonly one I have had to remove early in its life (7 months old); I 3 stepped the wifes Mercedes GLA45 obsidian black which had "Permaguard" coating..
With Scholl S3 and LC foamed wool on rotary it took it off.. I IPA'd the test spot and misted water afterwards to make sure the compound oils weren't misleading me.. (NOTE it was not laid on like varnish as per your Jag experience)... fair play the S3 on foam wool finished up so well, I was expecting more marring on the deep metallic gloss black.. (quietly impressed)...
I was slow and steady then cleaned up with S20 on scholl blue spider DA , and car pro reflect on finishing on the rotary... the reflect was arguably overkill as the S20 finished out beautifully.....
Collinite 845 2 coats since.....

End of the day if I am looking to correct quickly its rotary and wool.. (unless paint is super soft under the coating eg Subaru, as the sudden loss of resilience is harder to gauge...)

Anyhow all the best
 
Eldorado2k - the buffer is a Griot's G15, the pad was Griot's Microfiber Pad and the most aggressive product I had on hand that day was Meguiar's D300. The customer wasn't full of it, he was clueless.

But we're off topic....

#1 - If a car comes in with an unknown history, is there a way to tell for sure if it has a coating?

#2 - What services do you offer customers with coated cars?

Thanks,

Bill
 
waelwell said:
Eldorado2k - the buffer is a Griot's G15, the pad was Griot's Microfiber Pad and the most aggressive product I had on hand that day was Meguiar's D300. The customer wasn't full of it, he was clueless.

But we're off topic....

#1 - If a car comes in with an unknown history, is there a way to tell for sure if it has a coating?

#2 - What services do you offer customers with coated cars?

Thanks,

Bill
Click to expand...

1. No, unless you're told by the owner. If the car comes in and it starts beading up when I wash it, I will note it and talk to the customers after the detail about it. Most time people have no idea or even care. If it's coated or has some protection on the vehicle it just makes your life easier.

2. I offer the same services, minus anything that might remove the coating (assuming the customer told me it was coating and wanted it to be kept in tact on the surface). Talk to the customer and ask questions that will help you to make recommendations based on their understanding of detailing. It also gives you the chance to educate the customer so they know what is going to happen and what to expect with the results.
 
waelwell said:
Last week a customer brought in a 2011 Jaguar XJS. He said the paint was "trashed" and nothing else (I didn't book the job so I didn't talk to him). Bill
Click to expand...

Here is the problem. A customer brought the car in and SOMEONE (person who booked the job) should have gone over the entire car with him to note any prior nicks, dings, etc. ie) paint brush marks. I would have gotten to the bottom of it before the customer left the premises. How I would deal with it???, I'd charge a significant upcharge to correct/remove coating
 
I'm curious to a few things, and please OP, I'm just looking for clarification... (At my age, I get confused easy).

You stated you did a three step, and later you stated you had a G15 w/ BOSS MF and Megs D300. What were the other two steps? Are you calling the Iron-X & Nano skin steps?

I'm not familiar with the brand of coating on his car, but I have re-done vehicles that had coatings. Two this year as a matter of fact, and both Mustangs.
One Mustang which had CQUK was in an accident and had hood repainted, with feathering into the fenders. But while it was in the shop they trashed the whole thing pretty good. Second was just yesterday as outlined below:

- 2015: Vehicle was compounded and polished; LSP: Pinnacle Black Label Diamond Coating was added. Later Pinnacle Black Label Diamond Coating Booster was applied, the vehicle was put a way for the winter with a car cover.

- 2016: Vehicle had car cover removed, lots of micro marring from the car cover etc... Car was washed, Iron-X, Nano Skin. Then Compounded with G-15/BOSS Orange Pads with Pinnacle Advanced Compound, then Polished with G-15, BOSS Yellow Pads, Pinnacle Advanced Finishing Polish. I can almost state with certainty that there was no coating left on this vehicle. Then it got CarPro Erasure, now no coating for sure..., Then CQUK was added, with several rounds of Reload.

Yesterday, car returned, big old scratch in rear q panel (probably due to some maintenance done on the car recently) but the entire car was still in show car cond as it had not been driven. Just had to get one scratch out. I wiped the panel with Erasure, compounded, polished, removed the scratch, wiped with Erasure again and reapplied CQUK and Reload several hours later.

I suspect at some point you should have done an IPA mix, or CarPro Erasure or CarPro Essence and gone over the car. That would have taken care of the coating for good.

Zack McGovern recently chimed in on an article regarding Lexus "Self Healing Paint" which as I understand is essentially a coating. He states he's corrected many of these vehicles and even owns one himself. They get scratched and they need to be corrected to be fixed. Much like MB Ceramiclear... (which I did one of those this year... fun fun).

But having said all that I got a call from a guy who was looking for a detailer. He seems a bit discerning about his vehicle, yet he told me he only wanted an interior and not touch the outside because the car came from the dealer with a "coating". I politely stated our business model doesn't offer only interior work. As Mike Phillips says, when Bob pulls up in his Corvette, no one says, "hey Bob, those are nice looking leather seats"!

I could be eating my hat here because like I said, I am not familiar with the coating that was on his car, and it's quite possible if built up high enough (mil or two) that it would be impossible to get off. And If I'm wrong, I WILL eat my hat! :)
 
I don't know about coated cars in dealerships in US, but around here is crap stuff, you can easily remove it compounding it.
I've never seen a dealership applying OptiCoat or CQ Finest or Modesta, usually is consumer grade off-the-shelf type of coatings, or even worse, unknown brands, low quality big earnings.
Usually, as well, the prep is poor, and swirls and defects gets sealed behind the coating layer, so you have to remove it, and fix it and then reapply it.
I have yet to see a coating that can withstand a rotary with wool and menz 400 or 300.
A coated car has a certain look, depth of color and brightness that is very characteristic, the glassy look of a SiO2 based coating, and a more matte finish of a Ceramic Pro for instance. But a professionally well polished high end car with a sealant on top will look that is coated, since the original clearcoat is thicker and better quality than the average popular car we are used to work with it.
Coatings are not as slick as sealants, has a more velvety feeling, but if the customer applies a sealant or a wax after it has been coated, it becomes slick as a sealant, or grabbier as a wax.
Regarding maintenance, the biggest problem I see with coated cars, besides etched by bird bombs and fallout deposits, are water spots. Which can be removed by any water spot remover of your liking. Nothing to do about bird bombs, and nothing to about fallout deposits, since I never clay it without polishing afterwards. Iron X soap helps a bit, but that is it.
If I use CQuartz or any SiO2 based coating, I apply Reload as a booster, or any other sealant that has SiO2 in its formula, usually around 5%.
Permanon is also a good coating booster imho, easy to apply as well.
A lot of coatings have its own especific booster, which I try to use it as much as I can, to keep it synergistic, like PBL booster as so on.
My two cents, best regards
 
@RPM_BR. I'm curious to know, what's the general view of carnauba waxes down there in Brazil? Are they highly regarded and known for supreme excellence? Or is it the complete opposite?
 
Eldorado2k said:
@RPM_BR. I'm curious to know, what's the general view of carnauba waxes down there in Brazil? Are they highly regarded and known for supreme excellence? Or is it the complete opposite?
Click to expand...

I suppose it will depend on the segment of the market you work for. Usually the typical customer want something that lasts longer than waxes, therefore sealants and coatings are in.
They want something magical spreaded onto their car so they can forget about it.
The typical car wash uses a product called ativado, which is highly acidic for the exterior, and solupan, which is highly alkaline, for the undercarriage. The reason is cost, it is really cheap, and time, it dissolves anything and thus faster. Indeed it really cleans for obvious reasons, but strip the hell out of any protection you might add to the paint.
You find car washes using dedicated car products, but they are more expensive. You can recognize a car constantly washed with Ativado because it oxidizes the clearcoat after let's say couple dozen washes, added to the inclement heat, it becomes porous, with a dull aspect. The pad turns beige when you polish it. Therefore, I believe pure carnauba waxes are not so popular because of durability issues.
The show car people and garage queens love it, but the general public seems to find it a weak protection, this is my impression.
I personally like it, I have a small collection, but I don't use it very often on customers cars.
There are quite a few local Carnauba wax brands, some of them extremely good even by international standards, but Collinite and Meguiar's NXT are hot, people seems to like more the hybrid type of waxes. Liquid waxes by the gallon are popular among car wash owners as well.
Carnauba, which is carnaúba, with stress on the u, like carnauhba, is a palm tree native of the northeast of Brazil, and there are three different main types of products obtained from it, with three different colors, depending on the place of the palm tree the material is obtained.
Probably every wax on the planet has a Brazilian DNA, and it is big business for three states that produces most of it.
But lately, at least for my shop, is coating fever. I work with several brands, and I also have a budget coating line for people who can't afford it more expensive coating systems.
Best regards
 
waelwell said:
GKSR - shouldn't you be hunkering down for the hurricane? Dude, be safe.

Regarding your "Charge more and communicate..." comment - I guess I'm old school. To charge more, I'd have to provide more value. The guy paid for a wash, nanoskin, Iron-X, 2 stages of polish, and wax. That's what I gave him but he really didn't need the wax and was the nanoskin & Iron-X a waste of time as well? So what additional value would I be charging for? I can imagine the reaction of people if detailers start charging more to work on coated cars (vs. uncoated cars).

Regarding your "Did you strip the car..." question, I have no idea how to strip the coating off a car. No I didn't strip the coating off. And part of my post was about the fact that the owner didn't know it was coated and I didn't either until I started polishing it.

Be safe through the storm,

Bill
Click to expand...
I wasn't being sarcastic.I meant remove the coating and charge for it.This way it would of made your life easier when it came to removing the scratches underneath.Detail 101 is to fully inspect the car before the customer takes off.We all do things a different way or make mistakes.But there is nothing wrong with charging more for added value which in this case was to take off the coating and start from the naked paint.If he declines the extra charge then this would not fall back on you if he is not happy.
 
paul_g - you asked what I considered my "three steps". In a perfect world I would have started with an aggressive polish like a Meguiars M105 and then down to the D300 and onto the wax. But all I had to work with was D300 and D302 plus wax. So the customer really ended up getting 4 steps. Wherever it looked like it needed it, I did two passes with the D300. Meguiars really pushes D300 with a microfiber pad as being able to remove pretty severe scratches and on non-coated cars, it does. But I think it met it's match on a coated car. I hit it with D302 to brighten it up and remove the haze before putting on the wax. I walked the customer around the car and showed him everything that I could and couldn't do. I returned the car to the condition it was in when he bought it and it was thrilled with that. About the coating on the car, I spelled it wrong. It's X-kote.

GSKR - You were the first to suggest removing the coating. Since I never heard of that before, I didn't take you seriously. I'm sorry.

Guys & gals - it's going to take me a bit to get my head around the idea of removing the coating that someone paid a lot of money to have applied. I'll feel better about it when I see "coating removal" on some detailer's price list. Obviously if you have a conversation with the customer in advance, then there's no issue.

About everyone's comments regarding talking with the customer and inspecting the car before starting a job, I agree but I don't work in a perfect world. I run the "auto salon" in a much larger shop that repairs high end cars. There are two service writers upstairs who are the front line with the customer. If I'm in the building when a customer comes in for detailing, they will get me. But if I'm not in the building... I've been training them and I have to live with the results.

Thanks,

Bill
 
Resistant does not mean proof. We are microbe resistant, and yet here I set sick.

Those pics look like high spots like someone used a brush to apply the coating.
 
RPM_BR said:
I suppose it will depend on the segment of the market you work for. Usually the typical customer want something that lasts longer than waxes, therefore sealants and coatings are in.
They want something magical spreaded onto their car so they can forget about it.
The typical car wash uses a product called ativado, which is highly acidic for the exterior, and solupan, which is highly alkaline, for the undercarriage. The reason is cost, it is really cheap, and time, it dissolves anything and thus faster. Indeed it really cleans for obvious reasons, but strip the hell out of any protection you might add to the paint.
You find car washes using dedicated car products, but they are more expensive. You can recognize a car constantly washed with Ativado because it oxidizes the clearcoat after let's say couple dozen washes, added to the inclement heat, it becomes porous, with a dull aspect. The pad turns beige when you polish it. Therefore, I believe pure carnauba waxes are not so popular because of durability issues.
The show car people and garage queens love it, but the general public seems to find it a weak protection, this is my impression.
I personally like it, I have a small collection, but I don't use it very often on customers cars.
There are quite a few local Carnauba wax brands, some of them extremely good even by international standards, but Collinite and Meguiar's NXT are hot, people seems to like more the hybrid type of waxes. Liquid waxes by the gallon are popular among car wash owners as well.
Carnauba, which is carnaúba, with stress on the u, like carnauhba, is a palm tree native of the northeast of Brazil, and there are three different main types of products obtained from it, with three different colors, depending on the place of the palm tree the material is obtained.
Probably every wax on the planet has a Brazilian DNA, and it is big business for three states that produces most of it.
But lately, at least for my shop, is coating fever. I work with several brands, and I also have a budget coating line for people who can't afford it more expensive coating systems.
Best regards
Click to expand...

Thanks for the highly detailed reply. It sort of sounds similar to how Tequila is in Mexico.. I'm curious to know what a couple of those Carnaubas are that are in your coveted personal reserve.:)

By the way, I understand there's a certain way carnauba is supposed to be pronounced, I've heard people attempt to pronounce it on videos, they always seem to sound a bit different than the other. All I know is I can't pronounce it the correct way for some reason and I'm a Mexican/American who can speak fluent spanish but I still can't pronounce Carnauba. I just say "carnooba" lol.

Speaking of pronunciations, you always see people on videos apologizing for their pronunciation of "Rupes". Personally, I pronounce it "Roopes" and if I ever made youtube videos you'd never hear me apologize to anyone about it! Lol.:)

It's funny how you say Meguiars NXT is hot over there right now.. It was hot in the US between 2002-2008, but it's just about disappeared from the shelves and thoughts of most car guys for quite a while now over here.

Thanks again for the reply. Best regards.
 
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