Antique black single-stage (1936 Packard )

JCDETAILRECON

JCDETAILRECON

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Hey Mike,
I have a project next week that has me nervous. The car is a beautifully preserved 1936 Packard. There are a few problem areas : Oxidation on roof/strange paint blend on rear quarter and fender. I stumbled up this article and would like to know if you would recommend this process on an 80 yr old finish?
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...w-car-finish-antique-single-stage-paints.html

I've used Meg's #7 Glaze in the past and remember it being very difficult to remove without some kind of detailer or spray wax. Could there be any negative impacts from this method on such a old finish? This is easily the softest paint I've seen.
Thanks in advance.
 
Mike Phillips, our forum master detailer has made mention not too far back, that Meg's #7 has been reformulated, and recall him doing a vehicle or two in some of his articles. Don't seem to recall him mentioning any negatives.

You may not perhaps be aware, but Mike Phillips worked for Meguiars prior to coming here to Autogeek.

But I'll agree with you having great difficulty with #7 with my long past experieces, and didn't seem to matter what the weather conditions were, and in fact usually perfect-ideal, and no matter how quickly I came behind to remove it, it worked the bejesus out of me and even after literally breaking an arm to get it off, would still see telltale residual streaks of it left behind.

And that IMO is not good for any paint to have to keep rubbing and rubbing till the cows come home.

I have never tried the new formula #7 to comment about it, so my earlier comments about it might be null and void.

But, as for myself using Glazes over the years, I commonly would use one of 3M's products such as Imperial Hand Glaze, Microfinishing Glaze, or their other "Perfect-It" Line, and they are all very good. Good enough that I'd trust any of them on a fine expensive Guitar or Bass Guitar and I have, numerous times with just beautiful end results.

Only one time with a Perfect-It Glaze, that had me working my keester off, and it was no doubt because it was old, 3-4 years. I bought a fresh bottle at a local paint supply shop, and voila, easy peasy, and worked like a charm.

Another really great Glaze that I have used in more recent times, and AG sells it here, is the Poor Boys World Black Hole Glaze. Really a sweet product, very easy to work with, and the final end results were hallmark of a world class Glaze that does all it claims it can do.

In your tasks with this upcoming vehicle, yes, I would say it will be very wise to proceed with a Glaze first before any other processes such as polishing are done.
 
Oddly, and how many of 3M's great products that AG showcases and sells, I myself couldn't find any "pure" stand alone glazes on their site unless I'm mistaken? (only on my first cup of Joe) As the Pefect-It "Polishing" Glaze they show seems to contain Abrasives from its description.

Some of the paint supply houses I have visited in more recent times seems to now carry not only quarts of 3M Glazes, but as well pints. A pint should be a bit less expensive in cost, and might believe a pint should be enough product for one vehicle, even this "tank" you have mentioned.

If my memory serves me correctly, 3M is now the parent company of Meguiars.

I think my Grandfather once told me he owned a Packard Limosine, something like a 1930 or 1932. I looked them up one day, and they reminded me of a Duesenberg.
 
JCDETAILRECON said:
Hey Mike,

I have a project next week that has me nervous. The car is a beautifully preserved 1936 Packard. There are a few problem areas :

Oxidation on roof/strange paint blend on rear quarter and fender.

I stumbled up this article and would like to know if you would recommend this process on an 80 yr old finish?

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...w-car-finish-antique-single-stage-paints.html
Click to expand...


Just a quick question... you stumbled upon it.... did you take time to read it? (There's a difference)


If you click the link your eyes should be able to find the word important in bold red letters.

Read that section and focus on the word important.

Also note, this technique is for antique single stage paint that is NEGLECTED and because it' has been neglected it has oxidized and turned chalky.

The technique is instead of doing what most detailers do due to their knee-jerk reaction to any paint in bad condition and that is to take an aggressive compound to the paint, instead because it's IMPORTANT to do everything possible to PRESERVE the paint you use TERRYCLOTH as your abrasive and the #7 is the lubricant.

The TS Oils in the #7 also bring back the full richness of color to the pigments if the paint is not past the point of no return. (I discus paint categories in my book The Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine, it's on page 37 I think).



JCDETAILRECON said:
I've used Meg's #7 Glaze in the past and remember it being very difficult to remove without some kind of detailer or spray wax.
Click to expand...

You're probably using it wrong.

Question: When you used it and it was difficult to wipe off WHAT we're you using it on?



JCDETAILRECON said:
Could there be any negative impacts from this method on such a old finish?

This is easily the softest paint I've seen.

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...


I can no longer count how many cars with either original or antique single page paint finishes have been saved using this technique.


Thousands.




I'm not known in the car detailing world for writing how-to articles that are inaccurate or send you down the wrong road.


You attended one of our Thursday night classes and saw me in action teaching people how to machine polish paint.


Pictures: 1987 Buick Regal T-Type WE4 Turbo - Show Car Makeover at Autogeek!




You

Dodo_Black_Widow_Wax_013.jpg




Me

Dodo_Black_Widow_Wax_007.jpg





Did I not come off as the real-deal?


I'm glad you're asking questions as that means you're open to learning.

I'm also glad you care enough about your customer and the paint on their car to do some research before diving in head first.


The answer to your questions is YES if the paint is in fact antique or old single stage paint that is in neglected condition then the #7 Rub Down Technique will be a SAFE way to remove the oxidation and restore the color. At least a LOT safer than compounding this old SOFT single stage paint.

If the antique paint is in good condition, that is it already has a shine, then the #7 will be good for the paint AFTER you do any correction or polishing work and BEFORE you apply any wax.



:)
 
One of my most favorite pictures and the story behind the picture is even better....

In this picture, Mr. Wayne Carini is giving me the thumbs up after inspecting the paint AFTER the original antique single stage paint was rubbed down by hand using the #7 Rub Down Technique.


Mike_Phillips_Wayne_Carini_006.jpg







Wayne is very particular about who he would let "touch" his personal car.


I'd say judging from the results you see in the picture the #7 Rub Down Technique does in fact work.


When you get a chance, please click the below link and read the write-up and look at the pictures. It's very thorough and detailed.


Wayne Carini 1954 Hudson Hornet Original Paint Restored by Mike Phillips


Mike_Phillips_Wayne_Carini_008.jpg






:)
 
***Personal Offer***



My most favorite thing to do is restore single stage antique paint on special interest cars.

If this project car you're working on is not too far away, give me a call and I'll go with you to the car and show you in person how to use the #7 Rub Down Technique.


1-800-869-3011 x206



:)
 
Mike, I've NEVER doubted you! I've considered you a teacher for years and trust you completely when it comes to detailing. My question, though worded poorly was if detailer or spray wax to remove the glaze have any negative effects.
I tried a test spot on my 2007 black nissan frontier a few days ago with #7 I purchased 2 or 3 yrs ago. I read this article in depth more than once (among others by you) and took notes.
I apologize if I offended you in any way.
 
Mike Phillips said:
***Personal Offer***



My most favorite thing to do is restore single stage antique paint on special interest cars.

If this project car you're working on is not too far away, give me a call and I'll go with you to the car and show you in person how to use the #7 Rub Down Technique.


1-800-869-3011 x206



:)
Click to expand...

The car/collection is in Merritt Island florida. I will call you today!
For the last 7 years of my detailing/reconditioning career, if I have a question related to detailing, I search to see what Mike Phillips has to say on the subject.
 
Mantilgh said:
I haven't used it much, but I found it hard to remove too. I used it really heavy/wet and let soak for many hours.

Maybe Mike's technique for removing wax would make it a little easier.?

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...eak-open-coating-wax-remove-creeping-out.html
Click to expand...


Nope, that only works for products that are easy to wipe off in the first place.


Meguiar's #7 is VERY OILY and correctly used you're applying it in a thick manner on cars that NEED to have the paint restored/polished, thus the secret to wiping #7 off is to NOT use a soft, plush microfiber towel but to use a traditional 100% cotton terrycloth towel.

Terrycloth is STOUT unlike soft plush microfiber. Traditional terrycloth has a LARGE NAP. The word nap in this context means LOOP OF FIBER. The nap or loop of fiber SLICES into the oily film of #7 and BREAKS it up making it easier to wipe off.


#7 will never wipe off as easy as Pinnacle Liquid Souveran. (one of the easiest to wipe-off LSPs I've ever used), because it's oily. It's not the same type of product so it should not be held to the same characteristics.


#7 is old school. Now days everyone wants easy. Now days with all the great abrasive technology skill and technique are not needed. Using #7 is a skill. Any detailer that wants easy-peasy move on. If you're the type of detailer I describe in this article,


The Mindset of a Professional Detailer




And if you're the type of detailer that wants to have ALL skills under their belt or at their disposal, then you have to accept that not everything in the world of detailing is easy. Something require some perspiration.


For those interested, I explain the role of terrycloth in this article,


The #7 Rub Down Technique by Mike Phillips



You have to read it though... not just look at the pretty pictures...


watermark.php


watermark.php




Removal
After allowing the oils in the #7 Show Car Glaze to soak over night or for a few hours, then remove the heavy application of #7 using cotton terry cloth towels.

watermark.php




Hope that helps....


:)
 
Mike, thanks for spending so much of your valuable time on this today. You truly blew my mind during our phone conversation with pinpoint accurate advice. I was literally speachless.
 
JCDETAILRECON said:
Mike, thanks for spending so much of your valuable time on this today. You truly blew my mind during our phone conversation with pinpoint accurate advice. I was literally speechless.
Click to expand...


My pleasure. I love talking cars with my friends.

I'm confident the paint on this car is going to look great when you're done. Or at least you'll take what's left to its maximum potential.


"Taking your car's paint to it's maximum potential"



:)
 
In regards again to "hard", what you have noticed, and what I have said, I do believe that many-most products do have a "shelf life". And would assume a Glaze is no different.

I say this because I have experienced this. A thought to be good bottle of 3M Glaze, worked superbly when I first got it, but came back to it perhaps 2-1/2 or so years later to again use. It was always stored in house, and was shaken very well before use. But it worked me a lot harder than I remembered, and I very much doubted the cause had anything to do with weather conditions, as they were ideal both times.

The proof in the pudding was going out and buying another, exact same bottle that very same day, same code # on the product, and it worked like a charm. The old bottle went in the trash.
 
And some other thoughts:

About 3 or so months ago, I sent my buddy "Cadillac Jimmy", who lives in Sarasota Fla, and owns a beautiful 1965 Black Caddy Calais, two pint bottles of Poor Boys Black Hole Glaze.

He tried it, and after doing a few panels in his Garage, said "It worked him", said he was soaked, and would go back and finish the following day. (He's the same age as I am 62)

Of course one variable could have been temps and humidity. I know he told me this year has been an extremely brutally hot one in Southwest Florida, and when I did a search that day and the next of what temps and relative humidity were, they were typically 90 degrees, and about 85%-87% relative humidity.

Jesus, no wonder he was spent! And such conditions may possibly have an effect on how any product may work. Here in NM, sure, 90's and 100 plus is not uncommon for the months of summer, but our desert humidity levels are much much lower, typically 12%-18% during summer months unless we're in our monsoon season, then humidity climbs to 30-40% and above.

And too, he might have been using those Gold Plush Towels I sent him, which I did tell him to save for his best waxes, and Detailer Sprays. As Mike P has touched on, such towels are perhaps not ideal for Glaze removal. I've found out such myself the hard way years ago, and would do like Mike says, Cotton Towels, or way back in time would use either Beefcloth, or Cotton Baby Diapers. The old 2-part Blue Coral in the Glass Bottle and Glass Jar comes to mind.

For many years I used my Craftsman Orbital Waxer as an aid for both applying and removing products such as glazes.
 
Yep Mike, what you have your hand on in this last picture is exactly what I'm talking about, and exactly what I have. In fact I have 2 of them, a 9" Black Craftsman Model, and the larger 11" Yellow Waxcoa Model. Both have served me well over the years. They've taken a licking, and keep on ticking.

Some of those commercial Detailing Shop Waxes and Wax-Glazes I bought back in the day in Chicago from Nu Look Factory could be loaded to the Gills with Carnauba. And they'd work you pretty good, especially on removal.

As an old buddy once suggested who used them as well, told me once not to necessarily worry about getting every last little bit of Waxes off, just go around the car if they're that difficult to get off and just "break up" the Waxes some, then come back with towels and finish off by hand.

During the last 8 years of my tenure as Carman-Mechanic at Amtrak in Chicago, I often did Upholstery work, and had daily access to a commercial Singer Sewing Machine. And in my off hours, would come in early to work and be off the clock, I learned to make my own custom plush Bonnets from new Surplus Cannon ultra plush Terry Cotton Bath Towels bought from a Supplier very cheap. ($6 a Towel) I could get nine 9" Bonnets per Towel, and made dozens of them With 1" wide Elastic from another Supplier.

I still use them on occasion, sometimes just for nostalgic kicks, but often also to apply and remove protectants from my Cargo Trailer.
 
Having again buying a Singer Sewing Machine to patch up my failing Covercraft NOAH Cover that was on my Tahoe a couple years back, I could do this same thing again if I chose, by making Bonnets.

Or as I understand the option is still present at AutoGeek to simply buy the appropriate sized MF Bonnets that could be used on the PC7424XP DA. (or others I assume)

I gather one would simply use the factory supplied Backing Plate with the permanently attached foam pad.

I destroyed that original I had one day on my Cargo Trailer but assume they can be easily re-acquired if needed.
 
I of course read this particular article you link to quite a long time back Mike, but thank you for posting it again, it was fun to read again.

Yep, back in the day, there sure weren't many options for a detailer. For fast-efficient correction, and of course a must have in all paint shops, was the Rotary.

And that's what we'd use, the Rotary Polisher, with various compounds, polishes, Glazes, Wax-Glazes, Cleaner Waxes, what have you.

But we used those Orbital Waxers for mainly one purpose, and that was after the polishing with a Rotary, we'd use these little Waxcoa-Craftsman-Porter Cable wonders to come behind, and eliminate-remove any holographic trails that might be left behind from the Rotary Polishing Processes.

And they seemed to do that reasonably well and we got by. Today of course the tool of choice for such would be the more modern and more capable DA's.
 
I have been using a 14 lb GEM random orbital with cotton Terry bonnets in high volume dealer reconditioning applications for years. I figured it to be too aggressive for this application?
 
MarkD51 said:
Yep Mike, what you have your hand on in this last picture is exactly what I'm talking about, and exactly what I have. In fact I have 2 of them, a 9" Black Craftsman Model, and the larger 11" Yellow Waxcoa Model. Both have served me well over the years. They've taken a licking, and keep on ticking.

Some of those commercial Detailing Shop Waxes and Wax-Glazes I bought back in the day in Chicago from Nu Look Factory could be loaded to the Gills with Carnauba. And they'd work you pretty good, especially on removal.

As an old buddy once suggested who used them as well, told me once not to necessarily worry about getting every last little bit of Waxes off, just go around the car if they're that difficult to get off and just "break up" the Waxes some, then come back with towels and finish off by hand.

During the last 8 years of my tenure as Carman-Mechanic at Amtrak in Chicago, I often did Upholstery work, and had daily access to a commercial Singer Sewing Machine. And in my off hours, would come in early to work and be off the clock, I learned to make my own custom plush Bonnets from new Surplus Cannon ultra plush Terry Cotton Bath Towels bought from a Supplier very cheap. ($6 a Towel) I could get nine 9" Bonnets per Towel, and made dozens of them With 1" wide Elastic from another Supplier.

I still use them on occasion, sometimes just for nostalgic kicks, but often also to apply and remove protectants from my Cargo Trailer.
Click to expand...

I know about the NuLook waxes and polishes . They were very good .I used them when I was detailing on the side.
 
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