i am disappointed from my 21 MK2

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Just to chime in...

There's a really good discussion taking place here about tools and technique, pads and stuff... and everyone is entitled to their opinions based upon their own experiences...

Remember - the fact that you are participating in or even reading this thread means you likely have more in common with everyone else reading or participating in this thread than you have differences.... (we're all detailing fanatics).


Just thought I would interject that...

 

[SWETM]

Yeah the prices in Scandinavia is high for rupes 2pads 6" at 44$. And meguiars is high priced to UC and UP for 26$ each.

I have a one step compound that claims to get p600 at highest and finish down good for be that aggressive. Have not tested it out yet but looking forward to it. I have a 5" backing plate on my 21mm longthrow polisher and it works great with menzerna fg400 and a medium cutting foam pad. I took out heavy oxidation on a single stage red paint and almost lsp ready with 1 set and 4-5 passes.

I wonder who manufactures Griots polishers? If I understands it right they look for products that is good and rebrand them to their own. As they buy good products to get manufactured for them. Hard with the english to get what I mean but hope you understand. They look alot as a Das polishers. I could be wrong though.

It's many that use rupes and often pro detailers and then copies of them. Something that is common is cyclo polishers and copies of them. And then Flex Top Tool M2 is also popular in the detailing business.

 

[Deje]

Yeah the prices in Scandinavia is high for rupes 2pads 6" at 44$. And meguiars is high priced to UC and UP for 26$ each.

I have a one step compound that claims to get p600 at highest and finish down good for be that aggressive. Have not tested it out yet but looking forward to it. I have a 5" backing plate on my 21mm longthrow polisher and it works great with menzerna fg400 and a medium cutting foam pad. I took out heavy oxidation on a single stage red paint and almost lsp ready with 1 set and 4-5 passes.

I wonder who manufactures Griots polishers? If I understands it right they look for products that is good and rebrand them to their own. As they buy good products to get manufactured for them. Hard with the english to get what I mean but hope you understand. They look alot as a Das polishers. I could be wrong though.

It's many that use rupes and often pro detailers and then copies of them. Something that is common is cyclo polishers and copies of them. And then Flex Top Tool M2 is also popular in the detailing business.

Prices are completely unjustified high, at least in the countries in Scandinavia that are in the EU,the explanation is greed from dealers and almost an oligopoly situation.

 

[aderet]

What made you think a 21 with that giant foot print as far as pad movement would have been a good choice? Its not like its a nimble machine for use on curvy panels. It was meant for big flat panels. Its not a good choice for use as an all around polisher.

i did not expect that the 21 will be good on tight places. i was kind of upset when i had to put to much attention in order to make it not stall on a curve bottom of a flat door...

 

[dlc95]

I use the 21 MKII with a Kamakazi Beast 5” bp, Megs Xtra Cut MF and M101 to do what no rotary could, we shared a very similar experience there. I have yet to try CarPro Clear Cut with that setup, hmm you got me thinking.

"The Razor"!

Forgot to mention that he had exact fit, xtra cut discs.... It was an experience.

 

[aderet]

Are you using the washer mod?

The MK2 has a tremendous amount of more power compared to the first gen.

If you have no tried the washer mod, This is the answer to your problem. That machine on speed 4 is just a complete monster. the contour has to be pretty drastic if you can not get it to spin. You also have to learn how to manipulate the machine so you can maintain pad rotation.

The washer mod vs no washer mod debate will always go on, There are some people that say it is not needed.

To me it is like driving with a e-brake on, Why limit the power of the machine. The shroud restricts rotation and this can cause excess pad stall in curve areas.

i am using the washer mod on and off for the last year. i have not decide what is better for me.i think that i can control the machine better with out the washer mod. she can be brutal with it and not necessarily correct better.

 

[aderet]

This is a difficult thread for me to respond to, because I don't want to make it sound like I am blaming you. I hate that you are not getting the results you want with the Mark II, but I am also fairly confident, unless it is a defective tool, there are a few technique adjustments that can be made for you to get the most out of your investment.

One of my job descriptions as Senior Technical Advisor for RUPES is to develop training protocols and to teach classes of people how to use our tools. I have spoken to a few guys who have, unfortunately, had a similar experience, and with just a little instruction we are able to get them up and running.

1) Make sure that the interface between the shroud and the backing plate is lubricated. A drop of vaseline or dielectric grease will do fine. Put a smudge on the backing plate, rotate the backing plate... move on.

2) Drink a sip of coffee, or a glass, or a 24-oz. container and prepare for number 3...

3) Had your coffee? Awake? Good... here we go.

The biggest issue I see with people suffering from poor performance with a large-diameter orbital polisher is that they are not holding the pad flat to the surface. The center of the part (or which ever part of the pad is being used if you are edging) should be near-flat at all times. I have seen many detailers and professionals "think" they are flat, but they aren't even close. I have taken pictures to show them, videos, etc and the look on their face is priceless. IF you have a friend who can video tape you, from a low angle, polishing a panel, you might gain great insight.

Why do I think this is the problem you are suffering from? Because of the problems you are having with pad life and heat are usually caused by either A) too much down pressure or B) interface angle.

Imagine the backing plate is moving in a large Mr. Myagi motion above the paint. Large circles/orbits (with or without rotation). Now we insert a pad in this space, perfectly even with the paint. It will "scrub" in the same motion as the backing plate with little deflection. Now if we angle 'northern' edge of the backing plate downward just a handful of degrees, each time the backing plate orbits to the north, it is compressing the foam, and each time it angles to the south, it is pulling the back edge of the foam from the paint.

The backing plate is literally 'punching' the paint, and the foam is caught in the middle. The larger the orbit, the more energy the pad absorbs, the more heat begins to build, the more the foam structure looses rigidity, and the cycle repeats until you are frustrated with the performance of the tool AND the life of the pads.

In addition to using a video camera, I have a technique that I teach people that seems to help... But before sharing that, consider this point. If you watch a painter paint a panel, they break their risk as they sweep side-to-side. This keeps the spray gun perpendicular to the paint for even application, like a robotic arm traveling on a rack. When we polish, we should break our wrists in a similar fashion as we extend outward, otherwise we will naturally angle the polisher the further we expand outside our shoulder width. If you are "white-knuckle" gripping the polisher and holding it tight you will naturally induce angle as you move across the paint, and will accidentally angle the polisher even when you think you are flat.

So....

Mark the edge of the backing plate with a marker so you can visualize rotation. Now, set the polisher on a flat or near-flat surface (just to learn), use a 7-inch pad without a washer mod (but make sure the interface is lubricated). Using speed 3, depress the trigger and use the trigger lock....

Now we are going to polish the panel using just the thumb of one hand and the finger of another, barely holding the tool. Whichever hand you use to "grip" the leading edge of the tool, use just your thumb to apply barely enough down pressure to hold the foam to the paint. Whichever hand you use to grip the handle, use just your index finger to lift the handle slightly (since in operation it is SLIGHTLY tail heavy). Once running, BigFoot Random Orbital Polishers will "self-level" if we just help them along with two fingers and the lightest of touch.

Other polishing movements, like gear-driven and rotary, require a firmer grip because of the steering, and thus can create some bad habits with random orbital polishers. Keep your grip light and let the polisher do all of the work. Move it around the paint, watch your backing plate marker, make small adjustments. In a few minutes, you will "get it".

When I have instructed people who suffer from similar performance issues, they usually have a death grip on the head of the tool and any movement induces angle. The large-diameter random orbital tools will do the work for you.

I hope this helps. If not, shoot me an email at my first name and last initial @RUPESUSA.com, and I will give you my cell phone number.

Yours in better polishing,
Todd

thanks for the the very detail explanation . even that i am pretty sure that the pad always flat ( i am well aware about how impotent it is ..) i will put even more attention on that.
is there any video about it in order to make it more visual ?

 

[aderet]

Just to comment....

The first time I used the RUPES polishers I had to unlearn most of what I knew. When I wrote the RUPES how-to book I shared this experience in it.

The other thing I shared in the RUPES book (and you can tell by the title), is that RUPES is not a tool, it's a system.


That said, if you spend enough time with any tool you can learn to make it dance on paint. Last Saturday I held a wetsanding class here at Autogeek and we ran into bad paint. That's all I can figure out about it is that the actual paint that is the resin and pigments are bad or inexpensive because on a few panels we ran into issues creating a uniform clear high gloss finish. My guess is these trouble areas were re-painted after the initial paint was sprayed because some of the panels buffed up to a super high gloss finish with no trouble at all.

Suffice to say, after a lot of experimenting with 6 different tools, the ONLY tool that created acceptable results was the RUPES BigFoot 21 with the RUPES Zephir Gloss Coarse Compound and the RUPES blue coarse foam cutting pad. <--AND this was for final polishing, not first step polishing.


Now here's where what I've written above applies to the topic of this thread.

My good friend Frank and I re-polished the entire car on Monday, (after the class on Sunday), using ONLY the RUPES BigFoot 21 and the RUPES 7" diameter foam cutting pad.

Now look at the curves panels and the TIGHT AREAS we had to get into from the side shot of this car...

In order to maintain pad rotation for the NON large flat panel areas we had to use a technique I shared on page 64 of my how to book where I "gingerly" touched on the topic of going up on edge when using the BigFoot 21 and the 7" pad to cause the pad to reverse rotate BUT MAINTAIN PAD ROTATION and thereby enabling you/me to power through a detail job.


Here's a picture of that section I just took with my cell phone.... note the first sentence,

This is not a RUPES technique but a Mike Phillips technique.

So use this technique at your own discretion. And also note - to my knowledge RUPES has never recommended this technique, it's just something I figured out after using large pads on a rotary buffers to buff out thin or tight areas for years. The really BIG PICTURE is you purchase a collection of RUPES tools and then match the tool and thus the pad size to the panel you need to buff instead of making a pad that's too large for the panel work.


In my article here,

FLEX 3401 or RUPES? - A question I get asked a lot! -Mike Phillips

I show pictures of this technique from an old 2-door Chevy project we did here at AG.




Buffing a tight area UP ON EDGE using a RUPES BigFoot 21

Custom Paint Job - 1980 Corvette - RUPES & Gyeon - Extreme Show Car Makeover at Autogeek


Buffing on edge with the RUPES BigFoot 21 Mark II

I cover this technique on page 64 of my RUPES how-to book.

Final results...

Besides using the tool wrong, that is using the 7" pad on edge to buff out tight areas or thin panels, Todd is correct, you need to hold the tool in a way that you keep the face of the pad flat to the surface. This also includes buffing out curved panels where only a portion of the panel is in contact with the face of the pad - it just has to be in contact with the center footprint of the pad - not the edges of the pad. Hard to explain with a keyboard - easier to show in person.


If a tool works - with enough time behind the tool you can make it dance on paint.

thank you for your replay mike. i used this technique with my old makita for years before but now i prefer a mini machine for an ultra tight areas.. do you have a video of you doing that with the 21?

 

[aderet]

The best detailers I’ve trained are the ones that had a natural talent for long throws, the hobbyists or mediocre detailers always went the other route and its easy to identify between them on this site too.

i think that the best detailers are the one who bring the best results.

 

[Ronin47]

i think that the best detailers are the one who bring the best results. what have or not have a 21 is got to do with how good you are?

You misreading it.

 

[aderet]

maybe i did- i edited the last paragraph out

 

[kkritsilas]

The best detailers I’ve trained are the ones that had a natural talent for long throws, the hobbyists or mediocre detailers always went the other route and its easy to identify between them on this site too.

So the inference being anybody that buys a Mille, or LHR19 is now automatically goes from being a great detailer to a mediocre detailer, I take it. You know, people like Remy Doyle, Junkman 2000, the entire team of world class detailers that worked on the Air Force One detail (used both 3401s, XFE7-15-150 abd XFE7-12-129s, and I know the last two are free rotation). All of them are mediocre based on the fact that they used force rotation polishers? And I also take it that Rupes, by introducing the Mille, is now encouraging mediocrity and poor detailing practises, according to you?

Mike Philips must also be a mediocre detailer, seeing as he wrote the book on using the XC 3401, huh?

You seriously need to reconsider what you wrote. You may be a big fan of the 21mm Bigfoot, but don't go making judgements on people based on their equipment choisces.

 

[Ronin47]

So the inference being anybody that buys a Mille, or LHR19 is now automatically goes from being a great detailer to a mediocre detailer, I take it. You know, people like Remy Doyle, Junkman 2000, the entire team of world class detailers that worked on the Air Force One detail (used both 3401s, XFE7-15-150 abd XFE7-12-129s, and I know the last two are free rotation). All of them are mediocre based on the fact that they used force rotation polishers? And I also take it that Rupes, by introducing the Mille, is now encouraging mediocrity and poor detailing practises, according to you?

Mike Philips must also be a mediocre detailer, seeing as he wrote the book on using the XC 3401, huh?

You seriously need to reconsider what you wrote. You may be a big fan of the 21mm Bigfoot, but don't go making judgements on people based on their equipment choisces.

Comprehension is key

 

[JCDetails]

I’m starting to view polishers in a similar manner to how I learned to view pistols in the gun world.

Whether a $500 Glock or a 4-figure custom 1911, I figure either is far more accurate than I’ll ever be. In the grand scheme of the system, I am the weakest link.

Similarly, any of the tools available today (rotary, long throw, forced etc) can probably produce equal results (perfect paint) given the right technique. Again, I am the limiting factor.

I bet someone with tons of experience who’s got perfect technique with a 7424 can probably get better results than I could with my boss g15, all else being equal. Just like Jerry Miculek could take a cheapo Taurus revolver and probably out shoot me with an AR15.

The main points I think are becoming more apparently important to me are ease of use, and versatility. I wish the Mille had come out before I bought my g15, but that’s life I guess. If I really pay attention on my technique, I may not be quite as quick but I’ll get the results.


Sent from my iPhone using AGOnline

 

[kkritsilas]

Comprehension is key

So is allowing that people will use whatever tools they feel most comfortable with. So is understanding that your statement opens up a lot of ways of it being interpreted, and drawing some inferences. as I did. (I didn't call people who have difficulty with using a 21mm long throw polisher mediocre and amature, you did.+

So is judging the degree of professionalism by how close to perfection one can get the paint to. You however, choose to judge professionalism, or even competence by a persons ability to master a 21 mm long throw polisher. This may be of importance to you, but most, and if I may be so bold, all, of the people who have their cars detailed to perfection, really don't care which polisher, polish, or LSP was used. They will judge it, and the professionalism of the detailer, on how good the paint looks in the end. They won't care if the paint was polished with string mop, as long as all the defects are gone (to the extent possible), the colour is clear and bright,and the paint has a really high gloss. If the detailer used a cheap Chinese knock off polisher of some sort, a forced rotation polisher, a short throw free rotation polisher, a long throw free rotation polisher, or a rotary polisher is of no consequence.

 

[JCDetails]

^^ to be honest, I think you’re reading way too far into what ronin said and seem to be taking it very personally.

I would agree with ronin in that forced machines are often touted as the end all be all and many of the uninitiated go that way thinking it’s some sort of ‘shortcut’ or will save them time or effort. Maybe it can, but at what opportunity cost compared to taking the time to properly master other tools and methods? That’s the important question IMO.

Different tools requiring different methods to obtain the same results. Some tools are more forgiving of slightly less than perfect technique, others aren’t.

At the end of the day, it’s no different than those who prefer a rotary to cut with rather than a DA and vice versa. The end goal is some quantity of defect removal and gloss, and varying combination of tool and technique to get there.


Sent from my iPhone using AGOnline

 

[Rmd]

I don’t see that as a misread. What was originally stated was that one could be a “good” detailer by using any machine, but that to be “great” one must use and master a long throw. “A great detailer is one whos (sic) mastered the long throw.” When this contention was questioned by several responses, including mine, those who questioned it were characterized as reading selectively, misreading, or failing to comprehend two simple declarative statements – in effect doubling down on the insult.

We are all aware of the forum rules against attacking other members, and the member making the original contention is not being attacked. What IS being questioned is what the member said. That distinction is why it is not personal. Accusing those who questioned the original statement of being incapable of understanding two simple statements is what is both personal and belittling.

 

[RSW]

If I may...

First. My (now) 16-year old neighbor is the Florida State Champ for her weight division (105 lbs or similar) in Olympic Lighting, and even at 14, she was moving serious weight... just sayin'.

Second. It is my opinion that gear-driven polishers are less technique dependent than random orbital polishers (which become slightly more technique specific as the orbital length increases). The trade-off with gear-driven polishers is you pay for this with a rougher rider and more fatigue. RUPES, with the Mille, has made a serious effort to create a gear-driven polisher that ramps up user comfort to levels unthought of before while offering class-leading performance.

Third. Too much attention is paid to pad stall. If we freeze the rotational movement, large-diameter random orbital polishers like the 21 will still produce more movement across the entire diameter of the pad than most gear-driven polishers do at full RPM. It is a matter of utilizing that power with proper technique and pad formulas that makes the difference.

I am a firm believer that off the polishing movements currently available : orbital, random orbital, gear-driven, and rotary - random orbital still offers the best average of attributes.

Todd,

I couldn't agree more that there's too much attention paid to pad stall. As I've mentioned over and over, the amount of energy making that kind of spin is measurable by attaching a string to the edge of the pad and feeling the pull on the string when the machine is running and it's not much, especially when you consider the other movements.



What tools and pads would you use if someone asked you to polish a car cut with 1500 dry sandpaper using a random orbital sander? I'm not asking specifically, though I'm guessing the answer will have something to do with Rupes. Season's Greetings!

RSW



RSW