Panel wipe and sealant

[RippyD]

There's been some debate about the effect of panel wipe on sealants here. I decided to test it.

I first cleaned up the hood of the trusty Sentra: washed, clayed, polished, prep polished, panel wiped with N-914 and rinseless washed again to get rid of any excess soap.

Using prep polish and panel wipe is likely redundant. I've gotten comments that Ultimate Polish is hard to remove for sealant application. It's worth the extra 5 minutes to ensure everybody trusts the results.

I added three polishes using the hood indentations as dividing lines. I wanted to try three different types of sealant (WOWO, buff off, and apply and wipe off). Left to right they are Duragloss Aquawax, Sonax PNS, and FK 1000. I let them cure for 12 hours in my garage, and then another 12 hours in the sun with a high if 60 degrees F.

I did a rinseless wash and gave it the hose test. Water is flying off as expected. (I'm always amazed that WOWO works as well as it does.)

I dried it, dried, put down some tape, and took the N-914 panel wipe to it.

Hose again... looking good.

Did this three more times, and...

It took 4 panel wipe washes of N-914 for the Aquawax to start visibly slowing down. I stopped here due to darkness. Will do more testing in the next day or two with N-914 and an alcohol based panel wipe as well. This leads me to believe that it would be removed with 1 panel wipe wash after a week or so. Will see if that happens.

(Edited to read better and not sound like an a-hole.)

 

[fightnews]

Beading is not an indicator of having sealant on the paint. My glass beads/sheets water as good as the paint with nothing on it.

 

[MattPersman]

While I agree with that beading doesn’t always mean protection I would say at this duration and head to head with others it’s a pretty strong indicator of what is effected more than the others.

Thanks for doing this Rippy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I can't help but think about the possibility of "clogging"; are you sure the N-914 is removing the Aquawax, or is it simply bonding to it and "clogging" the beading/sheeting performance?

Remember we went through this a few years ago with Swanicyouth and PiPUK (what ever happened to him?) with Dawn and APC washing which seemed to remove sealants, only to do an IPA wipe which removed surfactant residues and restored the beading. Which opened up a whole can of worms about sealant bonding to "bare" surfaces if we weren't really getting bare surfaces to begin with.

 

[Desertnate]

Of the three products I would expect the Aquawax to fail first, if it is indeed failing, since it's a spray sealant with limited durability. As for the PNS and FK1000, I'd be pretty disappointed in those products if the panel wipe had an effect at all.

From my experience with sealants, the only products that would really have any effect were things like Tarminator, a citrus degreaser, or a bug remover I mixed a little too strong.

 

[RippyD]

I can't help but think about the possibility of "clogging"; are you sure the N-914 is removing the Aquawax, or is it simply bonding to it and "clogging" the beading/sheeting performance?

I did not consider this. Any ideas how how to counter it without applying IPA? More rinsing? Following up with a waterless wash or two to remove the excess soap?

I'll take an IPA wipe to it today and see what happens. I would hope that N-914 leaves far less residue than Dawn, but I have no idea.

Of the three products I would expect the Aquawax to fail first, if it is indeed failing, since it's a spray sealant with limited durability. As for the PNS and FK1000, I'd be pretty disappointed in those products if the panel wipe had an effect at all.

Me too, and we'll see... I have no idea. Thinking about this very simply, just the abrasion of washing may remove some sealant. If it takes 20 washes with N-914 at 8:1, it is the washing or the chemical that's remove it?

You know... now I need to do a control test to see how quickly Aquawax will start to slow down using rinseless concentration.

Thanks for comments and questions. Should help get this done in a more meaningful way.

 

[DetailZeus]

I can't help but think about the possibility of "clogging"; are you sure the N-914 is removing the Aquawax, or is it simply bonding to it and "clogging" the beading/sheeting performance?

Remember we went through this a few years ago with Swanicyouth and PiPUK (what ever happened to him?) with Dawn and APC washing which seemed to remove sealants, only to do an IPA wipe which removed surfactant residues and restored the beading. Which opened up a whole can of worms about sealant bonding to "bare" surfaces if we weren't really getting bare surfaces to begin with.

This worries me because if N-914 is surface substantive then it's not really suitable to use as a coating prep. A panel wipe should lubricate then evaporate away.

 

[JHL88]

Maybe try an actual panel wipe like Gtechniq or prep all

 

[RippyD]

This worries me because if N-914 is surface substantive then it's not really suitable to use as a coating prep. A panel wipe should lubricate then evaporate away.

It's a waterless/rinseless wash. It doesn't volatilize light an IPA or Naptha based panel wipe would. I suspect the idea is that it takes any oils into suspension that are then removed when it's dried. I haven't tested it against others and don't have any reason to believe it doesn't work well for removing polishing oils.

Maybe try an actual panel wipe like Gtechniq or prep all

Will do. Unfortunately I don't have enough on hand to do repeated applications across the hood. I could probably get 3-4 done. More is on the way.

 

[Calendyr]

Hum... if you wipe the panel with an IPA or surface prep, you will remove the sealant. That is the idea behind using those products in the first place... not to sure I understand the logic of using them to restore beading ... ?

 

[RippyD]

Hum... if you wipe the panel with an IPA or surface prep, you will remove the sealant. That is the idea behind using those products in the first place... not to sure I understand the logic of using them to restore beading ... ?

I believe they are intended to remove polishing oils rather than sealants.

 

[mwoywod]

Hum... if you wipe the panel with an IPA or surface prep, you will remove the sealant. That is the idea behind using those products in the first place... not to sure I understand the logic of using them to restore beading ... ?

IPA is definitely not intended to remove sealants. Like RippyD mentioned panel wipe/IPA is meant to remove polishing oils and surfactants.

Here's a personal example. The surfactants in D111 Shampoo plus always neuter the water behavior of my LSP when I've used it to wash my truck, but then when I've used carpro eraser or 11% IPA solution, they would remove the surfactants left on the surface from D111 and restore the water beading and sheeting properties of my LSP.

WaxMode on Youtube (he also goes by Loach on the forum) he's posted SEVERAL great videos on this topic with really informative content. I'd check out his channel because he does a great job explaining it.

As far as I know, mechanical abrasion is the only 100% guaranteed method for removing freshly applied sealants.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

WaxMode on Youtube (he also goes by Loach on the forum) he's posted SEVERAL great videos on this topic with really informative content. I'd check out his channel because he does a great job explaining it.

As far as I know, mechanical abrasion is the only 100% guaranteed method for removing freshly applied sealants.

I don't think I've had the opportunity to see those videos, but this revelation in the last few years that these "chemical" methods were not actually removing LSP's (and I'll lump "waxes" into that since very few waxes don't contain some synthetic/silicone/"sealant" ingredients) from the surface really turned the conventional wisdom on its head. We presume that X sealant lasted this long because we stripped the Y sealant with Dawn until there was no beading and we were down to bare paint...except we really just put sealant X on top of a layer of Dawn surfactants that were on top of the sealant Y...so what does that mean for our longevity? And how many applied coatings on top of a "stripped" surface, that wasn't really stripped? Were we disappointed in the coating because it never really bonded to the paint? Or was it fine and it turns out it doesn't really need that "bare" a surface? I believe Zach was doing some experiments applying coatings on top of polished surfaces without removing any potential oil residues, and did not note any reduced performance.

 

[RippyD]

This may be common knowledge, but I wanted to share what I found when researching panel wipe products. They seem to have three basic components: petroleum-solvents, IPA, and surfactants. Some use a combination of two of these. Information given below is per several safe data sheets I reviewed. (Keep in mind that alcohol is miscible in both water and oil-based products.)

Prep-all was mentioned above. There are two types of this product: Solvent based and water based. The solvent based is up to 90%+ naptha, with perhaps some other petroleum distillates and Toluene. The water based version is 10% IPA and 10% surfactant.

Gyeon prep appears to be 30% IPA with some scent. CarPro eraser appears to be ~30% IPA (or less) with a small amount of surfactant and a scent.

U-Pol is shown to be 100% hygrocarbons. There are fast and slow versions, meaning one is more volatile. Likely Naptha + other solvents.

Spies Hecker panel wipe is 90%+ Naptha + some IPA.​

Given this, I'll look for a smaller amount of solvent-based panel wipe. I could probably use hardware store Naptha straight, or with some 99% IPA to help it evaporate. I also don't see much reason to use expensive IPA panel wipes when I can just as easily mix some up with or without added surfactant. Bottom line is that I think testing soap-based, alcohol-based, and petro-based will cover the range of what's out there.

 

[Calendyr]

I believe they are intended to remove polishing oils rather than sealants.

They are intended to remove everything on the paint. The only thing that will not be removed by them is a coating. All paint prep products are solvents. Some are Alcohol based, others might use something else... either way, waxes and sealants will be removed by them, at least partially.

 

[Calendyr]

IPA is definitely not intended to remove sealants. Like RippyD mentioned panel wipe/IPA is meant to remove polishing oils and surfactants.

Here's a personal example. The surfactants in D111 Shampoo plus always neuter the water behavior of my LSP when I've used it to wash my truck, but then when I've used carpro eraser or 11% IPA solution, they would remove the surfactants left on the surface from D111 and restore the water beading and sheeting properties of my LSP.

WaxMode on Youtube (he also goes by Loach on the forum) he's posted SEVERAL great videos on this topic with really informative content. I'd check out his channel because he does a great job explaining it.

As far as I know, mechanical abrasion is the only 100% guaranteed method for removing freshly applied sealants.

You do understand that naked paint will bead water very well, right? The presence of a wax or sealant is not needed for water to bead. All you need is a perfectly clean surface.

I will check WaxMode's chanel. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Calendyr]

This may be common knowledge, but I wanted to share what I found when researching panel wipe products. They seem to have three basic components: petroleum-solvents, IPA, and surfactants. Some use a combination of two of these. Information given below is per several safe data sheets I reviewed. (Keep in mind that alcohol is miscible in both water and oil-based products.)

Prep-all was mentioned above. There are two types of this product: Solvent based and water based. The solvent based is up to 90%+ naptha, with perhaps some other petroleum distillates and Toluene. The water based version is 10% IPA and 10% surfactant.

Gyeon prep appears to be 30% IPA with some scent. CarPro eraser appears to be ~30% IPA (or less) with a small amount of surfactant and a scent.

U-Pol is shown to be 100% hygrocarbons. There are fast and slow versions, meaning one is more volatile. Likely Naptha + other solvents.

Spies Hecker panel wipe is 90%+ Naptha + some IPA.​

Given this, I'll look for a smaller amount of solvent-based panel wipe. I could probably use hardware store Naptha straight, or with some 99% IPA to help it evaporate. I also don't see much reason to use expensive IPA panel wipes when I can just as easily mix some up with or without added surfactant. Bottom line is that I think testing soap-based, alcohol-based, and petro-based will cover the range of what's out there.

Yes you are right, not all preps are created with the same solvents.

Personnally I use 2. I mix my own IPA at around 25-30% alchohol and use distilled water and ONR to dilute the alcohol to desired level. The ONR adds lubricity that normal IPA doesn't have. I use that mostly to wipe pannels after polishing.

I also use Dupli-color Grease and Wax remover. That product is inexpensive compared to CarPro Eracer and other boutique products. It is designed to strip the paint bare before painting. I have never looked at the ingrediant but it is almost certainly petrolium based. It doesn't smell or feel like alcohol at all. I use this to prepare surfaces for sealants and coatings mostly.

It is very possible alcohol based paint preps are not strong enough to remove all the sealant and or wax on the surface. This is very hard to test. As for Grease and wax remover, if it could not strip the paint of all wax and grease, it would create a major problem when it comes to painting, so I am fairly confident it can remove everything short of a coating from the surface.

 

[RippyD]

It is very possible alcohol based paint preps are not strong enough to remove all the sealant and or wax on the surface. This is very hard to test. As for Grease and wax remover, if it could not strip the paint of all wax and grease, it would create a major problem when it comes to painting, so I am fairly confident it can remove everything short of a coating from the surface.

This is exactly the reason I'm doing this testing - there's a ton of opinion on this topic without any real evidence either way.

The Dupli-Color product you're using is 95% acetone, so I'd put it in the same category as the alcohol based cleaners. I'd guess the other 5% is water. This may be a 4th category of panel wipe main ingredients since it's a ketone rather than an alcohol (I don't recall the key differences between the two). It's miscible in water, unlike petroleum based solvents. I'll try acetone as well and see how it does.

Hoping to get testing done today. Missed Saturday, was too cold yesterday, snowing this morning. Will see how this afternoon looks.

 

[Mike@ShineStruck]

From my tests nothing dissolved wax except for acid
I've used grated pepper size polymerbased paste wax submerged in chemical of choice.
Only thing I have yet to test is strong solvents like mineral spirits, Denatured alcohol and laquer thinner

Ipa, coating prep, dawn, tar remover, fall out remover, degreaser, non acid wheel cleaner, APC, bird #### remover, etc etc had no effect evenn after 30 min

I've got video of majority of them

 

[RippyD]

From my tests nothing dissolved wax except for acid
I've used grated pepper size polymerbased paste wax submerged in chemical of choice.
Only thing I have yet to test is strong solvents like mineral spirits, Denatured alcohol and laquer thinner

Ipa, coating prep, dawn, tar remover, fall out remover, degreaser, non acid wheel cleaner, APC, bird #### remover, etc etc had no effect evenn after 30 min

I've got video of majority of them

Non-polar organics like Toluene will dissolve wax. I'm not sure about the polymers used in sealants.