Pats300zx
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- Mar 7, 2006
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Fantastic post and so on point !!!
The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips
- Thread starter Mike Phillips
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Fantastic post and so on point !!!
Calendyr
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- Jun 9, 2013
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The way I understand it, they tested the resistance to scratches using lead pencils and the coating can resist scratches from a 9H pencil.
As for clearcoat lasting 30 years... really? The half-life of clearcoats is 5 years. That is why most clear coats fail around the 10 year point. If can prolong the durability by keeping the car protected with waxes, sealants and coatings, but on it's own I don't think there are any chance a clear coat will last 30 years.
Longevity of a coating.
I think that the most impact on your LSP of any kind is how much your car is driven. Then comes the environment you live in. And this is if you maintain your car properly. The environment you drive on is pretty hard on your car. Roads are dirty and you drive on them with different speeds. Dirt are going to come up in the air by the turbulence from the car and being slinged up by the wheels. Then it could be raining or wet roads or snow roads and all that gets on there when it's time for getting the snow off. So it's no wonder why a car gets dirty and the more it gets the more you drive it. This is where IMO the most wear and tear comes to the surfaces on your vehicals. And takes off your LSP little by little. I could be dead wrong too. But think a LSP longevity claim would be best counted in the miles you drive your vehical. Think that I have seen Gyeon has a time claim or when you hit a certain range of miles driven. Even with this you don't get an excact time when your LSP is done. Cause 15k miles in sunny weather and nice roads. Is not the same as 15k miles in rain and wet roads or snow and road salted roads. So a longevity claim of a LSP is impossible to claim. If all companys have the same condition when testing the longevity of their LSP products. You can get an estimate of how long a LSP last between them in that condition. Not how long it will last on your car. If you have 2 cars and they are driven in different condition during the year and with different mileage. And you use the same LSP and the same maintance and they are parked in the same condition. You will have a difference to the longevity you get on them. Hope I make any sence with my thoughts about it LOL. This is not just coatings but waxes and sealants too or what else of the protection of choice.
Here comes something I not get much of response on. And it's the decon washes. I think that it's cause of the different environments we live in. And how we are used to do this if you ever do it. Before I touch the paint with a wash mitt I will have it as clean as possible. In the summer months it's road film and bugs that are the most of. For that I have used many years to apply a alkaline degreaser that desolves the most of this. And use the water pressure from the PW or a strong water pressure from the hose to clean the paint with thoroughly. Not just rinse but use the water pressure to clean with. Then go on with the 2bm wash and dry the car.
For the snowy winter months when the road salt is on the roads. It's necessary to apply a tar degreaser first on the lower side panels and the back of the car. Where the dirt from the wheels and turbulence hits the car. After that has dwelled enough I apply the alkaline degreaser over the whole car. Then you clean with the water pressure from the PW or hose. And move on to the 2bm wash and dry it.
This is the most common method to maintain the cars here in Sweden. Then the later years with the adding of the foamcannon and some more effective prewash foam soaps than the alkaline degreaser. Could be what is in the alkaline degreaser and the tar degreaser that you don't use this in the US. Or just different ways to reach the same goals of a clean and shiney car.
Why I mention these decon steps before washing the car. Is it takes a chemical resistant LSP. So you don't have to reapply it after every wash. Many synthetic wax and sealant has some resistance to chemicals and some are better than others. Now here is where coating and coating toppers comes in. They are very chemical resistant and will not degrade as long as you are useing chemical products that it can handle. Cause if I where to use for an example Megs Super Degreaser that has a ph level around 13 even when diluted. Most coatings are not going to handle that in the long run and degrade the coating. But if you useing chemical products that it can handle you are going to have a cleaner coating for a longer time. You would not get the same amount of contaminants on the coating if you use products that are suitable for it. All coating brands don't make degreaser products that would fit with this decon steps. But you can use other brands to if you know what you are useing.
We take Gyeon as an example. And I live in an environment that has snow and uses road salt on the roads. I have a car with Gyeon Pure coating on it. And the car is covered with road salt and other dirt on the paint. I would start with Gyeon Foam in the foamcannon and foam it on a dry car and let it dwell for over 5min but not let it dry on the paint. Clean with the water pressure from the PW from bottom and work my way up. Then spray the side panels and the back of the car with Gyeon Tar. The same thing with the water pressure from the PW and clean from the bottom and work my way up. Then a 2bm wash with Gyeon Bathe. Depending on how much iron particals I have in my environment I would at least apply Gyeon Iron remover 2 times a year. This is just the washing to get as little as possible of embedded contaminants on the coating and paint. And get the coating behavior to last as long as possible. Then if you have water spotting issue I would have Gyeon Water Spot and use that as soon as possible before they damage anything or bonds to strong.
The use of toppers and sio2 maintance products is another story
Just some thoughts about maintance of coatings.
/Tony
I think that the most impact on your LSP of any kind is how much your car is driven. Then comes the environment you live in. And this is if you maintain your car properly. The environment you drive on is pretty hard on your car. Roads are dirty and you drive on them with different speeds. Dirt are going to come up in the air by the turbulence from the car and being slinged up by the wheels. Then it could be raining or wet roads or snow roads and all that gets on there when it's time for getting the snow off. So it's no wonder why a car gets dirty and the more it gets the more you drive it. This is where IMO the most wear and tear comes to the surfaces on your vehicals. And takes off your LSP little by little. I could be dead wrong too. But think a LSP longevity claim would be best counted in the miles you drive your vehical. Think that I have seen Gyeon has a time claim or when you hit a certain range of miles driven. Even with this you don't get an excact time when your LSP is done. Cause 15k miles in sunny weather and nice roads. Is not the same as 15k miles in rain and wet roads or snow and road salted roads. So a longevity claim of a LSP is impossible to claim. If all companys have the same condition when testing the longevity of their LSP products. You can get an estimate of how long a LSP last between them in that condition. Not how long it will last on your car. If you have 2 cars and they are driven in different condition during the year and with different mileage. And you use the same LSP and the same maintance and they are parked in the same condition. You will have a difference to the longevity you get on them. Hope I make any sence with my thoughts about it LOL. This is not just coatings but waxes and sealants too or what else of the protection of choice.
Here comes something I not get much of response on. And it's the decon washes. I think that it's cause of the different environments we live in. And how we are used to do this if you ever do it. Before I touch the paint with a wash mitt I will have it as clean as possible. In the summer months it's road film and bugs that are the most of. For that I have used many years to apply a alkaline degreaser that desolves the most of this. And use the water pressure from the PW or a strong water pressure from the hose to clean the paint with thoroughly. Not just rinse but use the water pressure to clean with. Then go on with the 2bm wash and dry the car.
For the snowy winter months when the road salt is on the roads. It's necessary to apply a tar degreaser first on the lower side panels and the back of the car. Where the dirt from the wheels and turbulence hits the car. After that has dwelled enough I apply the alkaline degreaser over the whole car. Then you clean with the water pressure from the PW or hose. And move on to the 2bm wash and dry it.
This is the most common method to maintain the cars here in Sweden. Then the later years with the adding of the foamcannon and some more effective prewash foam soaps than the alkaline degreaser. Could be what is in the alkaline degreaser and the tar degreaser that you don't use this in the US. Or just different ways to reach the same goals of a clean and shiney car.
Why I mention these decon steps before washing the car. Is it takes a chemical resistant LSP. So you don't have to reapply it after every wash. Many synthetic wax and sealant has some resistance to chemicals and some are better than others. Now here is where coating and coating toppers comes in. They are very chemical resistant and will not degrade as long as you are useing chemical products that it can handle. Cause if I where to use for an example Megs Super Degreaser that has a ph level around 13 even when diluted. Most coatings are not going to handle that in the long run and degrade the coating. But if you useing chemical products that it can handle you are going to have a cleaner coating for a longer time. You would not get the same amount of contaminants on the coating if you use products that are suitable for it. All coating brands don't make degreaser products that would fit with this decon steps. But you can use other brands to if you know what you are useing.
We take Gyeon as an example. And I live in an environment that has snow and uses road salt on the roads. I have a car with Gyeon Pure coating on it. And the car is covered with road salt and other dirt on the paint. I would start with Gyeon Foam in the foamcannon and foam it on a dry car and let it dwell for over 5min but not let it dry on the paint. Clean with the water pressure from the PW from bottom and work my way up. Then spray the side panels and the back of the car with Gyeon Tar. The same thing with the water pressure from the PW and clean from the bottom and work my way up. Then a 2bm wash with Gyeon Bathe. Depending on how much iron particals I have in my environment I would at least apply Gyeon Iron remover 2 times a year. This is just the washing to get as little as possible of embedded contaminants on the coating and paint. And get the coating behavior to last as long as possible. Then if you have water spotting issue I would have Gyeon Water Spot and use that as soon as possible before they damage anything or bonds to strong.
The use of toppers and sio2 maintance products is another story
Just some thoughts about maintance of coatings.
/Tony
Desertnate
Well-known member
- Aug 5, 2013
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Great post and I agree that nailing down longevity is nearly impossible due to environmental conditions. However, I don't think mileage driven would be any better than some vague time-based guess by a company.
Case in point: I use the same products on my personal fleet of vehicles in order to keep life simple. Each of the cars see the same environment and are daily driven and sit outdoors during the day. Two of the three see some garage time at night while the third is never garaged. The big varience comes from miles driven. My daughter's car sees only around 5K miles a year, I drive mine 10~11K miles a year, and my wife drives roughly 30K miles per year. Despite the massive variance in milage driven, both sealants and a coating have held up to the same length of time. If durability was true to the mileage, i.e. 15K miles as one coating company claims, I'd be re-coating my wife's car twice a year. This would mean the coating would have no better durability than my experience with Collinite 845, which I really hope would not be the case and am pretty sure isn't based on that companies reputation.
The 15k miles was just a number I throwed out not a claim from any coating. And the point I was trying to say is that a longevity claim of a LSP on your own car is impossible to get. It's to many variables that has an impact on your LSP longevity. And I think that many is calling a LSP done. When it's clogged up with different contaminants a wash don't desolve. But a decon wash with the right product to the contaminants that you have.
I used Gyeon Wet Coat as a stand alone LSP this winter. And when the prewash foam did leave it as the side panels and the back of the car was done after 3 weeks. I got a little bummed. But when I had used the tar degreaser based on kerosene and a 2bm wash with carpro reset. The water behavior and gloss was back to the day it was applyied. I think that a car soap like reset is necessary to keep the coating as contaminants free as possible. I have had sealant and coating maintance products revived with washing with reset and doing decon steps before washing the car.
I used Gyeon Wet Coat as a stand alone LSP this winter. And when the prewash foam did leave it as the side panels and the back of the car was done after 3 weeks. I got a little bummed. But when I had used the tar degreaser based on kerosene and a 2bm wash with carpro reset. The water behavior and gloss was back to the day it was applyied. I think that a car soap like reset is necessary to keep the coating as contaminants free as possible. I have had sealant and coating maintance products revived with washing with reset and doing decon steps before washing the car.
cayenne_ksa
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- Aug 27, 2010
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If i had to polish the ceramic coat. How would i know i completely removed it ? can i follow same procedure as polishing any paint ?
swanicyouth
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You don’t. In fact - can it ever be completely removed?
Think about it. Clear coat is full of peaks and valleys under magnification. I’m sure it’s easy to remove the coating from the peaks - but what about the valleys?
We know you can’t compound out orange peel to level those peaks and valleys - you have to sand. We also know polishing will level a scratch - so it diminishes the high parts - not the low parts. So does that pad even touch the low parts? Does the coating get abraided out of the low parts ever?
Who knows.
rlmccarty2000
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Coatings are not that tough(at the consumer grade). At least the ones I have dealt with are not. A mild polish will remove most coatings. Mike P. Even suggested using an AOI to remove high spots and high spots are where the highest level of a coating is on your paint.
The Guz
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- Jun 17, 2013
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Out of curiosity what coatings have you used?
Check out this post by Jeff from Gyeon.
https://www.autogeekonline.net/foru...18220-re-applying-gyeon-mohs.html#post1563388
Calendyr
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I had to remove the coating on a hood I had just done 3 weeks back. I had applied McKee's 37 paint coating.
Long story short, I had to re-do the hood. I tried removing the coating with M205 and it did not do anything. I then tried using D300 and it did not do anything. I then used a 3000 grit sanding disk (meguiars) on a DA and it took quite a while to remove the coating. How could I tell? After doing the first pass of sanding, there were several large spots still very shiny while the rest of the area was dull. I sanded those spots again, reduced them but still there. Then a third time, same, 4th sanding pass removed it all. So if you think you can simply use a finishing polish to get that stuff off, you will have a bad surprise.
Coatings are increadibly resistant, that is why we put them on. I would not recommend polishing them because it would reduce them and maybe damage them, but to strip them off is a much more difficult thing than anything I have read here.
Maybe some coatings are not that resistant. I am thinking of the ones that are toppers for regular coatings (Gliss type stuff). But I dare you to remove Opti-Coat with a polish
cayenne_ksa
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I had to remove the coating on a hood I had just done 3 weeks back. I had applied McKee's 37 paint coating.
Long story short, I had to re-do the hood. I tried removing the coating with M205 and it did not do anything. I then tried using D300 and it did not do anything. I then used a 3000 grit sanding disk (meguiars) on a DA and it took quite a while to remove the coating. How could I tell? After doing the first pass of sanding, there were several large spots still very shiny while the rest of the area was dull. I sanded those spots again, reduced them but still there. Then a third time, same, 4th sanding pass removed it all. So if you think you can simply use a finishing polish to get that stuff off, you will have a bad surprise.
Coatings are increadibly resistant, that is why we put them on. I would not recommend polishing them because it would reduce them and maybe damage them, but to strip them off is a much more difficult thing than anything I have read here.
Maybe some coatings are not that resistant. I am thinking of the ones that are toppers for regular coatings (Gliss type stuff). But I dare you to remove Opti-Coat with a polish
thank you for your reply. I understand from your post it's hard to remove it but are you saying once that coat from (cquartz, ceramic pro etc ) applied on factory paint, it will require as much work as you did to be removed ?
what should i do to maintain a paint that has multi coat of cquartz ?
Calendyr
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I cannot say is all coatings are the same in terms of resistance to abrasion, but McKee's is a very inexpensive product, so I doubt it has more resistance than CQuartz or other brands, they should be at least as resistant. So yes, I would assume they would be at least as difficult to remove.
As for maintenance, just don't use any claybar, polish, or compound. And of course, not automatic car washes. 2 bucket method, rinseless wash, waterless wash, pressure washing, should all be fine. I would use Reload as a drying aid if you are using microfiber towels to dry. If you use forced air, then no actual topper is required but you can apply Reload from time to time to boost the protection if you want to.
As for maintenance, just don't use any claybar, polish, or compound. And of course, not automatic car washes. 2 bucket method, rinseless wash, waterless wash, pressure washing, should all be fine. I would use Reload as a drying aid if you are using microfiber towels to dry. If you use forced air, then no actual topper is required but you can apply Reload from time to time to boost the protection if you want to.
BudgetPlan1
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- Dec 21, 2015
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Interesting. Have removed a few coatings for a variety of reasons, most I ever needed was a medium polish on a orange light cutting pad. Decided coating was gone when:
1. With products that darken the paint, paint returned to noticeable lighter color/shade.
2. Water lays flat on surface
3. Paint 'feels' stripped to the touch
Usually do a small spot to determine what will create the above conditions in comparison to adjacent, still coated spot.
Obviously, every situation is different.
The Guz
Well-known member
- Jun 17, 2013
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I had to remove the coating on a hood I had just done 3 weeks back. I had applied McKee's 37 paint coating.
Long story short, I had to re-do the hood. I tried removing the coating with M205 and it did not do anything. I then tried using D300 and it did not do anything. I then used a 3000 grit sanding disk (meguiars) on a DA and it took quite a while to remove the coating. How could I tell? After doing the first pass of sanding, there were several large spots still very shiny while the rest of the area was dull. I sanded those spots again, reduced them but still there. Then a third time, same, 4th sanding pass removed it all. So if you think you can simply use a finishing polish to get that stuff off, you will have a bad surprise.
Coatings are increadibly resistant, that is why we put them on. I would not recommend polishing them because it would reduce them and maybe damage them, but to strip them off is a much more difficult thing than anything I have read here.
Maybe some coatings are not that resistant. I am thinking of the ones that are toppers for regular coatings (Gliss type stuff). But I dare you to remove Opti-Coat with a polish
I'm finding it difficult to believe this. I recall Nick mentioning that McKee's can be removed by claying. I haven't personally used it but I highly doubt a coating manufacturer would sell a coating that is difficult to remove to the consumer.
See my previous post as I mention a technique that Jeff from Gyeon mentions.
I've removed cquartz by hand with a polish. Saw the color transfer. The only pro coatings that I know of that need sanding are GTechniq Crystal Serum Ultra and Ceramic Pro.
You can use a silica spray sealant like Reload to maintain cquartz along with regular washing.
Same here. A coating manufacturer would not sell a coating that is difficult to remove to the consumer. A professional coating is a different story.
Desertnate
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- Aug 5, 2013
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This has been my experience as well. I've actually polished out high spots by hand without much effort. I didn't have to use a machine.
In addtion to the visual queues you provided, on my black car in bright lighting I could actually see distinct edges around the spot I polished. It was very obvious. The still coated area had the finished/coated shine, while the areas inside now-visible borders I polished had the the same apperance you discribed and was also noticeably less shiny.
Eldorado2k
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- Nov 9, 2015
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That’s actually not true. I can think of numerous products that would be considered nearly impossible to remove once they’ve been applied...
1. Meguiars Ultimate Black Plastic Restorer aerosol. [Good luck getting this stuff off once you’ve layed it on and allowed it to dry. It’s 1 of those products you better be sure you like the results because it’s going to be on there for a long while]
2. Meguiars Headlight Coating aerosol. [Last I checked there’s no silver bullet to remove this either. IPA? Lol no. You’re most likely going to have to sand it off.]
Here’s an example of it once it’s gone south, and no amount of polishing by hand or machine was able to remove it. I had to sand it off.
Before:
After:
3. Then there’s the TW Endura Tire Coating. [Make the mistake of allowing even just a couple of minutes to dry on your wheels and odds are you’ll give up before you successfully get it off]
Just yesterday I finally decided to fully detail the wheels on the Kia, meaning get that accidental tire coating off the wheels. I did 3 of them but ran out of time. Here’s the 4th wheel now. You can see the black dye from the tire coating that is nearly impossible to remove unless you know what to use. This stuff has been on here for almost 2yrs. Lol.
Closer look.
Same goes for the trim coating. Get it on your paint and it’s a PITA to remove. I still haven’t gotten around to getting every little imperfection off from a long time ago.
There’s other products... But that’s just off the top of my head regarding things that could fall in the category of “impossible” to remove once you’ve applied it, especially for the average Joe.
Calendyr
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Well as I said, polish and compound did nothing for me. Water was still beading and sheeting like crazy and paint was still super glossy like the rest of the car. Only sandpaper was able to knock it off. Was it a fluke? I don't know, but if you ever have to remove a coating, at least be warned it might take more efforts than you expect.
Desertnate
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After having a pretty bad experience with this headlight coating, I was able to polish it off by hand with Plast-X. It was a little difficult, but if I had used a machine and/or a compound, it would have come off pretty easily.
In all fairness, I don't think I'd call the product a "coating" either since the Wolfgang Headlight Sealant lasts several months longer.
cayenne_ksa
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whats worst thing can happen if i polish a car that is coated with Cquartz for example ?
BudgetPlan1
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- Dec 21, 2015
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You'll remove the CQuartz