advancement in sealants and wax's for water spotting

If I'm not mistaken, 3D Nitro Seal focuses on water sheeting.
 
Interesting point of view from Mike on what happened at HQ. As always there are two sides to each story, here is mine.

NXT was hyped as the Zaino killer. At the time Zaino had a look that was quite unique and beading that outlasted most products by a very long while.

NXT was supposed be look better and last longer. It did look great initially. It was more glossy and much deeper than Zaino. It really made your paint look like it had another coat of clear on it, much like some of the better coatings. And it did this on less than perfect paint, which Zaino couldn't do.

The issue was that look and the beading didn't make it past a wash or a couple of rain showers. Perhaps some protection remained but to the untrained eye, everything was gone very quickly. Now if it didn't bead from the start, that would be a lot easier to believe. But at the time people were used to M16s unwavering performance.

To me NXT performed like a boring sealant with an extraordinary QD that was mixed in. That QD washed off and you were left with half the package. Rightfully so, people felt duped. Meguiars came out with a quick wax and a detailer that fixed the look and beading issue, temporarily, but the core issue was still there. NXT just did not last.

If you really want to dig into that history, autopia has it all.
 
I would love to test out a hydrophilic based coating, just think of how easy it would be in a flooded coating market to think up an entire coating line geared around the idea of hard water spot reduction. Hydrophilic base coats, top coats, maintenance sprays, soaps etc. Gyeon Philic, Philic Pro+, Hydro-Philic, Anti-Bead, Gyeon Sheet. A whole product line thought up in 10 seconds offering something different, something unique, based around solving an issue for a significant coating/paint based problem.

I assume that behavior is the only way you could put up a reasonable case where we would see a reduction in hard water spotting. All of these other products that have mildly hydrophobic behaviors that we've categorized as "sheeting" based, I feel they hold no advantage in real world hard water spot reduction against more hydrophobic ones. I can't tell my sprinklers to get up closer to the paint so it floods the surface in a controlled manner to reduce the beading left behind. I'm left with a mess whether it's M21 or Zymol Carbon.

Hard water spotting damage is the single biggest issue I've found when working with coatings, one bad hit and you're forced to go with a top coat or risk the integrity of the base coating by going with a water spot remover, both solutions by which are not guaranteed to resolve hard water etching. I assume the reason we haven't seen a hydrophilic coating yet by a relatively known company is because there's significant trade-offs going with this type of behavior that outweigh the benefits of any potential spot reduction. But I feel if something works as advertised that solves an issue, we should be able to convince people to use it. But less or mildly hydrophobic products have never shown me an advantage in spot reduction in my environment.

This is all heresy coming from me BTW, you guys know I'm never leaving insane beading behind. :awesome:
 
Mike Phillips said:
Me?

I always wonder....

What the hell is in the water?


I always teach people to look at the ROOT CAUSE of paint defect problems and when it comes to water spots on paint the root cause is whatever is in the water. Then I think whatever is in the water comes back to us....


I'm sorry I don't have a good answer outside of helping people to focus on the root cause. Meguiar's used to make their waxes sheet water off cars but after the Zaino vs NXT Wax Wars the corpoerate decision was made to make ALL their waxes bead water so all the "experts" would think the protection was "good" and "lasted a long time" even thought the Megs chemist state otherwise. I guess the root cause of the change in chemistry can be traced back to Guru Reports and "The Wax Test" those are the experts that caused Meguiar's to stop making waxes that sheet water.


Car Wax History


:)
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The wax wars back from the Zaino/LS1.com days. That brings back memories! Don't hear too much about Zaino nowadays eh? I have not ever had water spotting from rain when using sealants and waxes, to include P21S, Megs M21, ProWax. Then I read about coatings having issues with water spotting so that causes me concern. I have also used Reload and no water spots from it either. I want to try the Sonax coating so I wonder how it does with rain water spotting.

RamAirV1
 
RamAirV1 said:
I want to try the Sonax coating so I wonder how it does with rain water spotting.

RamAirV1
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Never had an issue with spotting after having it on the paint for 1 year. Actually never had any water spotting with any coating I have used.

You can find my review on the Sonax coating on the forum.
 
The US market is still behind the Asian market when it comes to coatings and coating toppers. I know of at least one Japanese company that sells an SiO2 coating topper that is advertised to sheet water. They also sell one that beads water.
 
Loach said:
I would love to test out a hydrophilic based coating, just think of how easy it would be in a flooded coating market to think up an entire coating line geared around the idea of hard water spot reduction. Hydrophilic base coats, top coats, maintenance sprays, soaps etc. Gyeon Philic, Philic Pro+, Hydro-Philic, Anti-Bead, Gyeon Sheet. A whole product line thought up in 10 seconds offering something different, something unique, based around solving an issue for a significant coating/paint based problem.

I assume that behavior is the only way you could put up a reasonable case where we would see a reduction in hard water spotting. All of these other products that have mildly hydrophobic behaviors that we've categorized as "sheeting" based, I feel they hold no advantage in real world hard water spot reduction against more hydrophobic ones. I can't tell my sprinklers to get up closer to the paint so it floods the surface in a controlled manner to reduce the beading left behind. I'm left with a mess whether it's M21 or Zymol Carbon.

Hard water spotting damage is the single biggest issue I've found when working with coatings, one bad hit and you're forced to go with a top coat or risk the integrity of the base coating by going with a water spot remover, both solutions by which are not guaranteed to resolve hard water etching. I assume the reason we haven't seen a hydrophilic coating yet by a relatively known company is because there's significant trade-offs going with this type of behavior that outweigh the benefits of any potential spot reduction. But I feel if something works as advertised that solves an issue, we should be able to convince people to use it. But less or mildly hydrophobic products have never shown me an advantage in spot reduction in my environment.

This is all heresy coming from me BTW, you guys know I'm never leaving insane beading behind. :awesome:
Click to expand...

Hydrophilic but oleophobic. You could still have your beading, it'd just have to be with little drops of vegetable oil lol. This would be a true 'easy to clean' lsp.
 
Since Mike bumped the thread here's a post from an old forum member who supposedly was a chemist. I don't know who the guy was or why he stopped posting but I really enjoyed reading his posts.

PiPUK said:
dschia said:
Interesting point and it make sense regarding the definition of 'sheeting'. I have always enjoyed reading and learning the know why from your posts. 1 observance between the 2 products however is the slickness. The more hydrophobic product tend to feel less slick so my first thought would be to assume that more contaminates will stay on the panel than the other. If all factors remain the same except the slickness, isnt the more hydrophobic product worst off than the other- counter intuitive than the general public perception that more bead is good.
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There are a bunch of factors which mean that this may or may not be the case. For example, a very large number of sealant type products are excellent at repelling water but are in fact oleophillic. What this means is they repel water but oils stick. If you were to spray oil onto the paint, it would stick really well and give a true 'sheet'. In laymans terms that means that the finish repels water and attracts anything oily/greasy (i.e. soiling). There are lots of really hydrophobic coatings which claim to be self cleaning but are in fact very inclined to contamination with oily soiling (more so than without the product) and are also very hard to clean (hydrophobic - remember - water is repelled so it has a hard time wetting the soiling!). In an ideal world, you want a finish which is oleophobic (repels oils) yet hydrophillic (water sticks - sheets). This means that oils don't stick well and any which do are easily removed because water is attracted to the surface and can easily wet the oily soils. I do not believe such a thing exists! For now, a bit of oleophobicity is a good start - but when did you last see a detailing brand mention the term (never?!)?

Oh - slickness/roughness... whole other area again!
Click to expand...


From a thread from 2016 "I want wax that sheets water"

I want wax that sheets water!
 
And....


I just shared this topical thread here,

Review: 3D Paint Coating and 3D One Cutting Compound and Finishing Polish


3D_Ceramic_Paint_Coating_007.JPG



:)
 
Desertnate said:
In the days of products which would sheet more than bead, what was the indicator the LSP had worn out and needed to be re-applied? The speed of the sheeting?
Click to expand...

Good question! I tend to use slickness as an indicator of LSP still being on the surface. I am just getting into in the use of ceramic coatings, and I know that many of them are not as slick, so that complicates things.

RamAirV1
 
In my younger days my dad had a 1951 Desota . He and my uncle resprayed it a dark green. 6 weeks later I decided to wax it . I washed it , polish it with Dupont # 7 auto polish, and Simonized it with the original Simonize. The car looked great , but it rained a week later and the sun came out. Very bad water spots on the hood ,roof and trunk. Ever rubbing compond wouldnt get them out . Years later some of the spots were still there.
 
A quick bump to this year old thread here:

Has anyone discovered any products, combinations, etc. to help in this "water spotting" area that so many of us experience?
 
Based on what I've read, if it beads water the potential is there for deposits to stay in those beads and then adhere to the paint as the water dries off. Pretty much every product is prone to water spotting to one degree or another. You'd need a non stick surface to prevent water spots.
 
DUBL0WS6 said:
Based on what I've read, if it beads water the potential is there for deposits to stay in those beads and then adhere to the paint as the water dries off.
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Yes I agree. I have noticed that with my last few washes on my wife's 2014 black MDX I have applied mckee's rinse free wash and wax product as a quick detailer and the water spotting has decreased a lot. Not sure if the w&w had anything to do with it but I will see over the next couple of weeks. I had been using CG V7 but ran out and so figured I would use the w&w in the mean time until I placed an order with AG (which I did today and saved 25% with free shipping...thank you very much AG). But, I actually like the w&w better than the V7 however.

I am planning on coating it within the next couple of weeks and I do not think I will be using the w&w on top of the coating but if in the mean time the water spotting is at a minimum and after coating the spots are worse I may consider it.
 
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