303 stained my headlamps?

[FUNX650]

No one is forced to use plastic over glass.

Wrong...nowadays OEM customers
have no choice, at least in the U.S.
•See:
-Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards
-The US National Highway Traffic
Safety Administration

*****************************

Is there a vehicle made today that’s
sold in the USA with glass headlights?

GMC Savana.

^^^Wrong.

The 2017 Chevy Express commercial van
was the last OEM holdout to use sealed
beam headlights in the U.S.

Bob

 

[IceQube]

I meant no OEM is forced to make their lamps with plastic. FMVSS 108 doesn't require glass or plastic. As a consumer, you're correct--we don't really have much of a choice when it comes to glass or plastic.

The GMC Savana is the Chevy Express with a different badge.

 

[FUNX650]

The GMC Savana is the Chevy Express
with a different badge.

But the last one to roll off the line
was the Chevy Express. :xyxthumbs:


Bob

 

[Eldorado2k]

For someone who seems to know a whole heck of alot about headlights...... How the heck did you wind up in this situation?? Lol.

 

[Desertnate]

That’s horrible. This is a big letdown... For 1, if plastic are so much cheaper to produce, then why do Corvette headlights cost almost $2,000 dollars to replace? There’s alot more but that alone is worth an outrage.

I think it has been addressed, but development costs are a big part of it and the small number which are sold. They aren't simply a lump of plastic. A huge amount of work goes into designing the reflective elements and optics of the assembly alone to ensure it puts out a good/legal light pattern within the constraints of the design (shape, size, etc). You can also factor in mark-up by the manufacturer based on the vehicle fitment. The actual HID lamp's aren't that expensive, but the entire HID assemblies are expensive, no matter what vehicle they go into. I believe the assembly in my GTI would run 800-ish if they were ever damaged in a wreck.

Vehicles running projector halogen assemblies like what's in our Mazda3 and Highlander probably wouldn't me much cheaper due to the optics and the design of the assembly.

i'm wondering too how much my hid's and/or led's improve longevity over the traditional halogens of yesteryear.

From my experience they last FAR longer than halogens. I've had halogen bulbs 2~3 years before they burn out, but that seems to be the longest I've ever gone. The OEM xenon HID's in my car are over six years old and still going strong with no hint of issues. Something you also have to remember is over time halogens will eventually get dimmer. HID's don't suffer this same problem at the same rate. They'll most likely fail totally rather than grow dimmer.

I don't know about the lamp-hour expectancy in HID/LED vehicle headlights, but the gas lamps and LED's used in concert lighting fixutres are rated at thousands and tens of thousands of lamp-hours.

Automotive HID lighting is dead and gone. The funeral occurred years ago. Today's and yesteryear's LED systems have left even the best HID systems in the dust.

From a technology standpoint very true, but automakers continue to product vehicles with terrible headlights using halogen bulbs and assemblies. Some try to hide it behind projector beam housings rather than really old school reflectors, but they are halogen none-the-less. I think headlights are one of the last places automakers will still try to cust costs and go cheap. I was actually quite proud of Toyota making LED's standard on their lowly Carolla several years ago.

Bottom line is that even today's advanced LED lamps won't last indefinitely. Longer than older lamps, yes. The heat generated by LEDs isn't sent out in the same direction as the light. It's sent out in the opposite direction. So the heat generated by LEDs shouldn't reach the lens very well, which will increase lens lifespan, but still, UV rays will degrade the lens.

I think many automakers are putting the heat sink for HID's and LED's at the back of the assembly so the heat is ventilated out under the hood instead of into the assembly to prevent this problem. I can't remember the car I looked at (Lexus maybe?) that had a rather sizeable heat sink which held the bulb and then attached to the back of the assembly to deal with the heat.

 

[Desertnate]

does anyone know if they changed how they make headlights? I've had issues with headlights on my pre 2000's cars but all my newer cars have never had more than regular megs gold class soap and they all still look new. I see guys spending hours and hundreds of dollars on their headlights and I just don't get it.

I think it depends on where the lenses are coming from. I can only speak to personal experience, but my Japanese cars started to fade whereas my German car (VW, nothing special) still looks as clear as the day it was purchased new. No idea how they differ other than possible material quality.

My Japanese cars which are fading are a 2010, 2012, and a 2013. All started to fade at about the 5 year point despite having and LSP applied since I purchased them. I know polish them 2x a year to keep them clear.

 

[IceQube]

For someone who seems to know a whole heck of alot about headlights...... How the heck did you wind up in this situation?? Lol.

My lamps were already just slightly degraded on the outside, but I didn't want to shell out $1300 per side for new lamps, so I put some 303 on them hoping to eek out a little more lifespan. The new lamps blow the old ones out the water due to new internals as well as a new exterior lens.

 

[IceQube]

Vehicles running projector halogen assemblies like what's in our Mazda3 and Highlander probably wouldn't me much cheaper due to the optics and the design of the assembly.

Probably not much cheaper for you (consumers), but they are certainly cheaper for the automaker, as they don't involve complicated and expensive ballasts and igniters.

From my experience they last FAR longer than halogens. I've had halogen bulbs 2~3 years before they burn out, but that seems to be the longest I've ever gone. The OEM xenon HID's in my car are over six years old and still going strong with no hint of issues. Something you also have to remember is over time halogens will eventually get dimmer. HID's don't suffer this same problem at the same rate. They'll most likely fail totally rather than grow dimmer.

Halogens tend to blow before getting much dimmer, but the long-life halogen bulbs that OEMs use tend to last way longer than their useful lifespan. The long-life type bulbs used by OEMs are like 100+ year old people--they're supposed to have expired a long time ago, but they keep creeping along at reduced mental/physical capacity. I replace all my OEM halogens with high-performance aftermarket halogens for much better performance at a small cost.

HIDs are even worse than halogens in terms of outlasting their useful lifespan. Old HIDs may only be at 60% of their original output, but they'll still turn on. This is not a good thing. The worn out, oxidized electrodes are further apart than they originally were when the bulb was new. This puts extra strain on the HID electronics to ignite the lamp. Better to replace a bulb than to replace the electronics.

From a technology standpoint very true, but automakers continue to product vehicles with terrible headlights using halogen bulbs and assemblies. Some try to hide it behind projector beam housings rather than really old school reflectors, but they are halogen none-the-less. I think headlights are one of the last places automakers will still try to cust costs and go cheap. I was actually quite proud of Toyota making LED's standard on their lowly Carolla several years ago.

The old Corolla's halogen lamps were quite good, but the LEDs are on a different planet.

I think many automakers are putting the heat sink for HID's and LED's at the back of the assembly so the heat is ventilated out under the hood instead of into the assembly to prevent this problem. I can't remember the car I looked at (Lexus maybe?) that had a rather sizeable heat sink which held the bulb and then attached to the back of the assembly to deal with the heat.

Many Toyotas, such as the Corolla, come with actively cooled LEDs. They're transitioning away from that toward solid-state cooling for even greater reliability.

 

[Eldorado2k]

Forgive me if it’s already been mentioned, but what kind of car is this?

 

[IceQube]

2012 IS350c.

 

[IceQube]

I think it depends on where the lenses are coming from. I can only speak to personal experience, but my Japanese cars started to fade whereas my German car (VW, nothing special) still looks as clear as the day it was purchased new. No idea how they differ other than possible material quality.

My Japanese cars which are fading are a 2010, 2012, and a 2013. All started to fade at about the 5 year point despite having and LSP applied since I purchased them. I know polish them 2x a year to keep them clear.

What cars were they? The Japanese ones, specifically.

 

[Belo]

respectfully, there are still tons of cars that came with HIDs or were retrofitted with them. Sure LEDs are the future, but the point about how they compare with regards to heat generation vs halogens stands.

 

[Klasse Act]

I have to say that there is a lot of very good information about lighting technology in this thread, so at least something good has come from it.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Desertnate]

What cars were they? The Japanese ones, specifically.

The 2010 is a Mazda3 hatchback, the 2012 is a Honda Fit, and the 2013 is a Toyota Highlander. The Mazda3 and the Highlander have halogen projector headlights, but the clouding/hazing is occuring at the top of the assembly and nowhere near the focal point of the beam where you might think heat would be a contributer.

None of them are behaving in the same way. The Mazda lenses slowly started to yellow and then started to get cloudy. The Highlander simply started to turn really cloudy, but it happened rather suddenly compared to the Mazda. The Honda I only bought about 18 months ago and nothing is uniform about those lenses. The cloudiness on both lenses is not uniform in where it is appearing and neither side is the same, unlike the other two cars.

This is compared to my VW GTI which is a '14 I picked up in fall of '13. The lenses on that car are as clear as they were when new. It has xenon HID's but they are inside a projector beam housing, so the heat shouldn't be much different in this scenario from a halogen projector beam housing.

Each vehicle has recieved the same treatment of identical products across their lifespan in my possession.

 

[Desertnate]

respectfully, there are still tons of cars that came with HIDs or were retrofitted with them. Sure LEDs are the future, but the point about how they compare with regards to heat generation vs halogens stands.

Agree. I never appreciated how much hotter halogen lights were than HID's until I owned a car with HID's. In the winter the halogen bulbs will keep at least a little opening at the focal point from being totally frozen over while you're driving. HID's in my experience, not so much. They'll freeze over as if the lights aren't even on.

 

[IceQube]

The 2010 is a Mazda3 hatchback, the 2012 is a Honda Fit, and the 2013 is a Toyota Highlander. The Mazda3 and the Highlander have halogen projector headlights, but the clouding/hazing is occuring at the top of the assembly and nowhere near the focal point of the beam where you might think heat would be a contributer.

The clouding/hazing is occurring at the top because of UV exposure. That's the part that's directly hit by the sun in midday.

Heat is a factor in degradation, but not as much so as UV.

None of them are behaving in the same way. The Mazda lenses slowly started to yellow and then started to get cloudy. The Highlander simply started to turn really cloudy, but it happened rather suddenly compared to the Mazda. The Honda I only bought about 18 months ago and nothing is uniform about those lenses. The cloudiness on both lenses is not uniform in where it is appearing and neither side is the same, unlike the other two cars.

Different plastic chemistries. More anti-yellowing chemicals tend to increase the likelihood of cracking. Less anti-yellowing chemicals reduce the likelihood of cracking at the expense of being more yellow when old and degraded.

This is compared to my VW GTI which is a '14 I picked up in fall of '13. The lenses on that car are as clear as they were when new. It has xenon HID's but they are inside a projector beam housing, so the heat shouldn't be much different in this scenario from a halogen projector beam housing.

Less heat from the HIDs and I don't believe any VWs use a high-beam as a DRL but instead a small, low-power lamp, so the car isn't running around in the day with both heat from the DRL+UV from the sun attacking the lens.

respectfully, there are still tons of cars that came with HIDs or were retrofitted with them. Sure LEDs are the future, but the point about how they compare with regards to heat generation vs halogens stands.

The HID retrofit market is thankfully small because it's frankly just a bad idea, and the industry is flooded with pseudoscience and illegal products. Illegal, as in federally illegal. These HID retrofits aren't allowed anywhere on US soil for good reason.

But people circumvent federal laws just to make a quick $. The industry hides their shipments of illegal HID retrofit kits by mislabeling the boxes, so that at port, no one notices. Instead of writing something like "HID kit" on the boxes, they'll label them as "automotive lighting," and most authorities will be none the wiser. Also, they've started putting illegitimate "DOT" labels on their products.

CBP Targets, Intercepts Illegally Imported HID Headlamps | U.S. Customs and Border Protection

Federal Register
::
Panda Power LLC, Denial of Petition for Decision of Inconsequential Noncompliance

The HID retrofit industry is frankly disgusting. They are marketing federally illegal and dangerous products to unknowing consumers by circumventing our border protection laws.

 

[Desertnate]

Less heat from the HIDs and I don't believe any VWs use a high-beam as a DRL but instead a small, low-power lamp, so the car isn't running around in the day with both heat from the DRL+UV from the sun attacking the lens.

In the US, VW does use the high beam bulb running at a lower setting for non HID housings. At least that is how it was implemented on the Mk6 Golf's and Jetta's. I believe the Passats and Tiguan's did as well. I think I know about the lamp you mention and I've seen some models with an empty hole in the reflector where that bulb goes, while others don't have it at all.

On my car, I have a bi-xenon housing and LED's for the DRL's. Heat from the lighting is considerably less than a halogen housing, but the UV exposure is no different. Based on the fading patterns I've seen, I'd think the UV exposure is a bigger problem than heat from the lamps.

 

[Belo]

The clouding/hazing is occurring at the top because of UV exposure. That's the part that's directly hit by the sun in midday.

Heat is a factor in degradation, but not as much so as UV.



Different plastic chemistries. More anti-yellowing chemicals tend to increase the likelihood of cracking. Less anti-yellowing chemicals reduce the likelihood of cracking at the expense of being more yellow when old and degraded.



Less heat from the HIDs and I don't believe any VWs use a high-beam as a DRL but instead a small, low-power lamp, so the car isn't running around in the day with both heat from the DRL+UV from the sun attacking the lens.



The HID retrofit market is thankfully small because it's frankly just a bad idea, and the industry is flooded with pseudoscience and illegal products. Illegal, as in federally illegal. These HID retrofits aren't allowed anywhere on US soil for good reason.

But people circumvent federal laws just to make a quick $. The industry hides their shipments of illegal HID retrofit kits by mislabeling the boxes, so that at port, no one notices. Instead of writing something like "HID kit" on the boxes, they'll label them as "automotive lighting," and most authorities will be none the wiser. Also, they've started putting illegitimate "DOT" labels on their products.

CBP Targets, Intercepts Illegally Imported HID Headlamps | U.S. Customs and Border Protection

Federal Register
::
Panda Power LLC, Denial of Petition for Decision of Inconsequential Noncompliance

The HID retrofit industry is frankly disgusting. They are marketing federally illegal and dangerous products to unknowing consumers by circumventing our border protection laws.

you're so passionate about this that I'm now curious about why. And put into a proper projector housing, there's nothing dangerous with about a HID.

 

[IceQube]

And have you done the computer modeling and used a goniophotometer to verify your statement? Many HID systems designed by actual engineers and not random forum users emit dangerous levels of glare, such as the ones on the Chrysler 300.

There's nothing safe about an unqualified person in their home garage stuffing a random projector behind a random lens. If actual engineers can't always get it right, what makes the average Joe any more likely to get it right?

Fact of the matter is that many "clear" lens will influence the beam. Many times in headlamp development, the entire design must be revised because the lens creates unwanted internal reflections. How are you going to test for and eliminate these unwanted reflections with a random projector, a random lens, and no modeling software or measuring equipment? Can your eyes tell the difference between 700 and 1000 candela? These are the glare point threshold values. Do you know where the glare points are even?

And the "hid only belongs in projectors" meme needs to be buried. There are plenty of exemplary HID systems from Lexus that use reflectors rather than projectors. Early LS400, ES330, IS300, GS430, etc.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

 

[Klasse Act]

This car, the 2005 Mercury Montego, came with non-projector HIDs, almost 20 years ago and before this car, the Lincoln Mark VIII!