Question for our in-house woodworker peeps

[oneheadlite]

Hey gang.

I'm in process of building an all wood platform bed frame. Super simple, isn't going to be visible. I'm using Douglas Fir 2x4's for main load bearing structure with Douglas Fir 2x6's as finishing boards around the outside. (I can put up a blueprint if it matters). The support slats will be 1x4 poplar.

So, my question is: While the frame isn't visible, nor was it hugely expensive, I do want it to stay solid/quiet. Originally I was planning on leaving the wood bare, but from what I've been reading it seems like I should do something to seal the boards to prevent splitting/warping/etc.

What would be recommended? It's winter here and I'd be doing it in the garage, so that's definitely a factor. Again, doesn't need to be anything fancy as it'll be hidden under a bed skirt.

Or, do I just skip it since being in a climate controlled upstairs bedroom humidity/temperature changes will be at a minimum? At the very least I'll be going over it with a sander to smooth it out.

 

[Rsurfer]

Steel bed frames are so cheap. Probably cheeper than the cost of wood. I can understand building a nice head board out of wood. Is there a reason you want to do this?

 

[dgage]

Wood will definitely move based on humidity regardless of finish unless you were somehow able to encapsulate completely, which would require an epoxy-like finish. And epoxy won't cure when cold. As a matter of fact, most finishes won't cure in the cold so you may need to wait until the spring.

So we need to realize your platform structure will move, more so across the width than length. So if you're looking for quiet, it really depends on how you plan to attach the joints to handle that wood movement. That is also a way to prevent splitting. So you may want to share your blueprint but more importantly, how you plan to join the wood at the corners, etc. And what type of glue you plan to use.

Also, your bed will get a shock after being built in the cold garage and then brought into a climate controlled environment so you'll get the most wood movement at that time. This is why wood flooring companies deliver wood several days to a week before they actually plan to install the floor so the wood can adjust to the environment before being installed.

 

[dgage]

Steel bed frames are so cheap. Probably cheeper than the cost of wood. I can understand building a nice head board out of wood. Is there a reason you want to do this?

I agree with this one. Much easier. And then you really don't have to worry about wood movement. Steel joints don't move a different rates like wood joints often do.

 

[2black1s]

I don't think you have anything to worry about with a simple 2x4 bedframe.

Sure, wood "moves" with temp and humidity changes, but the amount of movement is typically only a problem when working with precise and tight joints in "fine" woodworks.

Your bedframe doesn't sound like it fits that description.

The amount of movement in Doug Fir 2x4s relative to temp/humidity changes can be measured in thousandths of an inch and I just don't see that as an issue worth worrying about for your project.

Too prove this point, I just took a Doug Fir 2x4, cut off a 1-inch long piece and measured it with calipers in the 3 1/2 direction. It measured 3.432". Then I soaked the piece in a bucket of water for 15 minutes and remeasured... 3.439". In this extreme experiment there was only .007" movement. That amount of wood "movement" is simply not an issue for your project.

One suggestion I would give you is to buy Kiln-Dried 2x4s. I wouldn't use "Green" 2x4s. Green 2x4s are more likely to twist and warp than Kiln-Dried 2x4s as they do dry out.

Sealing the boards with some type of finish, or oil, is your call, but from a structural perspective I don't see it as necessary.

 

[oneheadlite]

Steel bed frames are so cheap. Probably cheeper than the cost of wood. I can understand building a nice head board out of wood. Is there a reason you want to do this?

Main reason is noise. Right now we have a regular mattress + box spring on a steel frame. Our Great Dane mixes have figured out they can accelerate our wake ups on weekends by leaning on the bed and shaking us around. Drives me crazy.

The mattress I'm getting has recommendations of support slats with spacing of about 3", so this led me to looking at wood frames. I'll confess I didn't spend much time looking at steel frames as I had low faith in their build quality from what I was seeing online.

After looking at a lot of wood frames, I was left feeling like it wouldn't be hard to build something sturdier for less money.

Also, like so many things - I kinda wanna try it just because I can. I made planter boxes for my wife that turned out quite well, so looking forward to doing something more precise. Wood's already purchased, so the ball's rolling. Total investment thus far is so low if I have to do a version 2 I won't be heartbroken, especially since half of the cost was the slats which can get reused no matter what.

Wood will definitely move based on humidity regardless of finish unless you were somehow able to encapsulate completely, which would require an epoxy-like finish. And epoxy won't cure when cold. As a matter of fact, most finishes won't cure in the cold so you may need to wait until the spring.

So we need to realize your platform structure will move, more so across the width than length. So if you're looking for quiet, it really depends on how you plan to attach the joints to handle that wood movement. That is also a way to prevent splitting. So you may want to share your blueprint but more importantly, how you plan to join the wood at the corners, etc. And what type of glue you plan to use.

Also, your bed will get a shock after being built in the cold garage and then brought into a climate controlled environment so you'll get the most wood movement at that time. This is why wood flooring companies deliver wood several days to a week before they actually plan to install the floor so the wood can adjust to the environment before being installed.

Thank you for your post.

I should have added - I'll be cutting the wood at work (stable 65 degrees), then bringing it home to assemble in the basement. I just don't want to do any chemical work in the house.

I'm familiar with how wood needs to be sealed on all sides, any kind of finish on our deck has been a losing battle since we've moved in for that reason (plus it was timing out when we got there anyway). I was also wondering if the pieces could be individually finished then assembled, but wasn't sure how that would work with gluing.

I'm open for glue suggestions.

Corner joints will be pocket screws, still debating fastening method for support structure to outer rails. Thinking simple screw straight in at 90°. Center cross support will be 2x6, corners will be 45° 2x6's to pull the legs in from the corners 6". Feet (6 total) will be 6.5" tall 4x4's with hardwood dowels inserted across the grain to ensure the hardware has something good to grab onto.

I'll get a picture up for clarity's sake after work.

 

[oneheadlite]

2black1s - Thanks for the info!

...
One suggestion I would give you is to buy Kiln-Dried 2x4s. I wouldn't use "Green" 2x4s. Green 2x4s are more likely to twist and warp than Kiln-Dried 2x4s as they do dry out.

I don't believe what I got is green. The Douglas Fir I picked up is actually stud lumber; it's got KD marked on it, not sure if that stands for Kiln Dried.

 

[2black1s]

Glue suggestion for this kind of work... Loctite PL Premium (3x Stronger) Construction Adhesive.

Edit: Yes, KD is the marking for Kiln-Dried.

 

[dgage]

I actually built one of these in the past and it was STRONG. When we moved, we weren't taking it with us as we bought new adjustable beds. My friend tried to break it at the joint and it broke the wood along the grain. I agree to use PL Premium 3X as that will hold better since the end of wood doesn't suck up wood glue as on the long edge. I would also add metal L-braces for two reasons. The first is strength though really that isn't needed once the glue dries. The second is as clamps to hold the wood while the glue dries. And I just left mine long term. And make sure to use a drill in the wood so you don't split it.

Another option to use for joints is a Kreg Jig HD, which is a pocket hole joinery system for 2x materials. Use with the glue but would allow you to forgo clamping or L-brackets.

 

[oneheadlite]

I actually built one of these in the past and it was STRONG. When we moved, we weren't taking it with us as we bought new adjustable beds. My friend tried to break it at the joint and it broke the wood along the grain. I agree to use PL Premium 3X as that will hold better since the end of wood doesn't suck up wood glue as on the long edge. I would also add metal L-braces for two reasons. The first is strength though really that isn't needed once the glue dries. The second is as clamps to hold the wood while the glue dries. And I just left mine long term. And make sure to use a drill in the wood so you don't split it.

Another option to use for joints is a Kreg Jig HD, which is a pocket hole joinery system for 2x materials. Use with the glue but would allow you to forgo clamping or L-brackets.

Good to get a second vote for the same glue.

I'll actually be using a Kreg Jig/Kreg Screws for the corners, I should have mentioned that when I said pocket holes.

All their literature says the bottom part of the screw self taps after you've drilled the pocket hole; my OCD still wants to pre-drill like you mention. I'll give them benefit of the doubt and give it a go.

Separate question - Do you think using the Kreg Screws 90° into the wood (I'd pre-drill for this part) would be fine for attaching the 2x4's to the outer 2x6's? Wasn't sure what the best hardware would be for that application; seems like with the smooth upper shank that would be a safe way to go.

 

[2black1s]

... Separate question - Do you think using the Kreg Screws 90° into the wood (I'd pre-drill for this part) would be fine for attaching the 2x4's to the outer 2x6's? Wasn't sure what the best hardware would be for that application; seems like with the smooth upper shank that would be a safe way to go.

Yes.

But so would just about any other wood screw.

2 1/2 L.

 

[oneheadlite]

Forgive the fact that it’s just a screen shot of the app I used to rough in the idea. It’s to-scale, each lil square is 1 inch.

Center 6 boards are the 2x4’s, perimeter 4 are the 2x6’s. The squares show (roughly) where the slats go (I’ll even then out during install).

End view at top; I’ll have to notch the 2x4’s to clear the laid-down 2x6 supports (that the legs mount to) so the whole support structure is hidden.

Hopefully this makes sense!

 

[dgage]

I missed pocket hole mention in your post.

With 2x material, are you using the Kreg HD or at least larger screws? The standard system isn’t compatible with 2x material. Also make sure you use coarse screws as the fine screws are for plywood. And the Kreg screws have a drilling tip so it shouldn’t split.

 

[57Rambler]

I'm familiar with how wood needs to be sealed on all sides, any kind of finish on our deck has been a losing battle since we've moved in for that reason (plus it was timing out when we got there anyway).

2 words ... Armstrong Clark. Most people have their deck finish fail because of using the wrong (or crappy) product. And also, as with car detailing, surface prep is critical. To get a wood deck right you need to first strip the wood of old paint/stain, then follow that up with a brightener. Only then is the wood ready for new stain. Armstrong Clark makes some of the best.

Corner joints will be pocket screws, still debating fastening method for support structure to outer rails. Thinking simple screw straight in at 90°. Center cross support will be 2x6, corners will be 45° 2x6's to pull the legs in from the corners 6". Feet (6 total) will be 6.5" tall 4x4's with hardwood dowels inserted across the grain to ensure the hardware has something good to grab onto.

Have you considered adding any corner braces ?

 

[dgage]

Based on that, you shouldn't even need to use pocket screws and you might be better off just using screws, especially with your nested construction. It would be stronger than pocket screws but definitely drill pilot holes. If you don’t want the screws to show on the outside, you could use wood pegs to cover the screws. I’d recommend drilling through the side and into the end grain and use long coarse screws

 

[PaulMys]

I do quite a bit of work for my cousin who is a high-end woodworker, master plumber, and GC.

I would stay away from D-Fir for your bed frame.

The one simple reason is that D-Fir will always warp, crown, or twist to some degree, and is highly susceptible to splitting on the end grain (with fasteners).

D-Fir 2x4's are milled with idea that they will be supporting weight vertically (interior walls) or in the case of horizontal applications, be at least doubled up if not used for sills or other direct contact.

And even "Kiln-Dried" can ooze fir sap in the future. Especially in a heated environment like your bedroom.

IMO, (and to keep it "cheap") I would price out some 8/4 (eight quarter) #2 pine for your bed frame. JMO............

 

[ducksfan]

I do quite a bit of work for my cousin who is a high-end woodworker, master plumber, and GC.

I would stay away from D-Fir for your bed frame.

The one simple reason is that D-Fir will always warp, crown, or twist to some degree, and is highly susceptible to splitting on the end grain (with fasteners).

D-Fir 2x4's are milled with idea that they will be supporting weight vertically (interior walls) or in the case of horizontal applications, be at least doubled up if not used for sills or other direct contact.

And even "Kiln-Dried" can ooze fir sap in the future. Especially in a heated environment like your bedroom.

IMO, (and to keep it "cheap") I would price out some 8/4 (eight quarter) #2 pine for your bed frame. JMO............

You're right Paul. But, he already bought the materials and probably doesn't want to double purchase. I would have built it out of 3/4 plywood and MDO or MDF to skirt it.
Oh, and the PL Premium suggestion is gold. Just be careful when you use it. You won't get it off mistakes and your skin will hold it until the layer dies and peels off.

 

[dgage]

PL Premium 3X cleans with mineral spirits so make sure you have some on hand.

 

[oneheadlite]

First off, many thanks to everyone, this has gotten way more responses than I thought it would!!

2 words ... Armstrong Clark. Most people have their deck finish fail because of using the wrong (or crappy) product. And also, as with car detailing, surface prep is critical. To get a wood deck right you need to first strip the wood of old paint/stain, then follow that up with a brightener. Only then is the wood ready for new stain. Armstrong Clark makes some of the best.

Have you considered adding any corner braces ?

From the looks of our deck, it was probably done in by neglect. Long term house goal is tearing it down and starting over.

As far as corner braces, the support feet at the outside corners will be 22” diagonal 2x6’s. I only made it as far as getting an example of 1 onto the draft above (bottom left corner).

Based on that, you shouldn't even need to use pocket screws and you might be better off just using screws, especially with your nested construction. It would be stronger than pocket screws but definitely drill pilot holes. If you don’t want the screws to show on the outside, you could use wood pegs to cover the screws. I’d recommend drilling through the side and into the end grain and use long coarse screws

From my reading, I was under the impression sinking screws into end grain actually isn’t as strong due to how the fibers in the wood run? Like screwing into the end of a box of straws. Also from what I’ve read (granted, from the internet), pocket screws actually have quite a high holding capacity in all but one direction. I’m not too worried about that one weak direction as for a queen size bed constructed as above I feel like there should be plenty of material/fasteners/glue to keep it sturdy.

I do quite a bit of work for my cousin who is a high-end woodworker, master plumber, and GC.

I would stay away from D-Fir for your bed frame.

The one simple reason is that D-Fir will always warp, crown, or twist to some degree, and is highly susceptible to splitting on the end grain (with fasteners).

D-Fir 2x4's are milled with idea that they will be supporting weight vertically (interior walls) or in the case of horizontal applications, be at least doubled up if not used for sills or other direct contact.

And even "Kiln-Dried" can ooze fir sap in the future. Especially in a heated environment like your bedroom.

IMO, (and to keep it "cheap") I would price out some 8/4 (eight quarter) #2 pine for your bed frame. JMO............

Well Heck. :laughing: Part of why I went with Douglas Fir was that I had read that it tended to be more stable than pine. I had even seen posts where people had made their own pine bed frame (not in the same fashion as what I drew up) and had elements of it get quite warped. But, who knows the specifics of what they were using which would have a huge effect on stability.

Good point on how D-Fir is milled to support weight vertically; that’s part of why I have 2 center support beams. I know floor joist spacing is typically 16” on center, and mine are at 18”, but I figure since there’s no span longer than a few feet it should be ok. Especially since it’s only a queen size bed, and we’re normal size folks. And the Danes sleep on their own beds on the floor. :laughing:

You're right Paul. But, he already bought the materials and probably doesn't want to double purchase. I would have built it out of 3/4 plywood and MDO or MDF to skirt it.
Oh, and the PL Premium suggestion is gold. Just be careful when you use it. You won't get it off mistakes and your skin will hold it until the layer dies and peels off.

Really good safety tip, thanks!

I definitely can see the value in using manufactured lumber for strength, but a big limiting factor is that I don’t have a lot of equipment to work with. I’m borrowing a compound miter saw from a friend, and don’t have access to a table saw.

While I’m comfortable with mechanicals (Auto tech by day, and I’m also familiar with fabrication/over-building as I’ve also been part of a series of race car builds), I haven’t done a lot of woodworking.

What’s the working time on that glue?

PL Premium 3X cleans with mineral spirits so make sure you have some on hand.

Excellent, I think I’ve got a tin of that. Thanks!

 

[2black1s]

Your choice of Doug Fir is perfectly fine. Sure there are other options, each with its own pro/cons, but Doug Fir is a solid choice.

Your understanding of pocket screws vs. straight screws into end grain is spot-on.

The PL Premium gives you plenty of working time. 30-40 minutes easy in which time you can reposition or tweak the joints if necessary. I give it a minimum of a few hours (overnight preferable) before handling or un-clamping, although that time isn't necessary in your case as the joints will be screwed.

Suggestion... Drill all of your screw holes and completely assemble your frame before applying any glue. This is called a dry-fit and insures everything fits properly before you permanently glue anything. Then disassemble (sometimes depending on the project I'll do this one joint at a time), apply the glue, and reassemble. Another benefit to pre-drilling/pre-assembly is that joints which are glued can be difficult to keep aligned during drilling/assembly as the joint will slip and slide on the glue. Pre-drilling/pre-assembly will help you to minimize this issue.

And finally, although you're probably already aware, be sure to restrain the frame "square" and "flat" until the glue is cured.