Directional Tires

[Setec Astronomy]

How do you guys feel about directional tires? Other than winter tires, I've only had one set, and that was a long, long time ago.

I've never liked directionals because you can't rotate them in an X-pattern, which I like to do to even out wear. With winter tires, it's just the way it is and they generally aren't on the car that long.

That being said, my now defunct high-end tire shop, refused to rotate in an X-pattern, but I think that was driven more by a desire for no comebacks due to possible vibration from spinning the tires in the opposite direction (he also insisted on doing a balance, for at least the fronts, during a rotation, I'm presuming for the same no-comeback reasoning--it was a small shop and comebacks likely disrupted his tight scheduling, I could only get him to fix a flat right away if I brought it to him off the car).

So what's your view on directional tires? (and I guess on rotation, since that's my reason for not liking them)

EDIT: Thinking about this after I posted, the reason I have always done X-pattern rotation is that is the manufacturer recommendation for every car I've ever had, and it makes sense to me why they recommend that.

 

[opie]

Directional for winter car tires only. I do the criss cross or fronts straight back and rear cross to front.

 

[Silly Rabbit]

I like directional tires, winter and high end summer. I just rotate front to back. Over the years I've always have even, nice wear on tires.

 

[chilly]

Every vehicle I have owned for the last 15 plus years has had a second set of studded winter tires and wheels and yeah, the winter tires are always directional. With the exception of one set of Pirellis (I think) on my TT, I don't remember any summer tires being directional. Up here a tire rotation happens twice a year when the winter and summer sets get swapped out and I do my own and I obviously stick to a front back swap on the winter tires but I also do the same for the summer sets. I don't put that many miles on a vehicle and that mileage is cut in half, roughly, by the twice a year swap, so I don't ever recall having a wear issue due to not performing an X or rear to front cross rotation

On a side note, I am hoping the winter set from the 4Runner will fit the Tacoma. The wheels and tires are exactly the same size, they are standard 6 bolt, so the offset will be the deciding factor I guess

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I don't have any cars right now that I have winters for, our winters are shorter than Chilly's but as he says, on the car that I had the winter tires for they got rotated every season (don't have that car anymore).

I'm thinking about new tires for my AWD car, which is the one I like to drive in the winter for obvious reasons, and some of the highly-rated all-season tires, like the Michelin Crossclimate2 and Goodyear Assurance Weatherready 2 are directional. I don't particularly like the look of those tires, the tread pattern just looks cheesy to me, I think that's because there was some cheap tire years ago that looked like them.

 

[chilly]

I don't have any cars right now that I have winters for, our winters are shorter than Chilly's but as he says, on the car that I had the winter tires for they got rotated every season (don't have that car anymore).

I'm thinking about new tires for my AWD car, which is the one I like to drive in the winter for obvious reasons, and some of the highly-rated all-season tires, like the Michelin Crossclimate2 and Goodyear Assurance Weatherready 2 are directional. I don't particularly like the look of those tires, the tread pattern just looks cheesy to me, I think that's because there was some cheap tire years ago that looked like them.

A lot of people up here, especially people in the military who aren't planning on being here long term, buy and try "all-season" tires, and generally with very poor results. Having said that I point out that in general, our winters are longer and more brutal, and deep snow and ICE are always a possibility. You don't need studs for deep snow but ice is an entirely different matter. Bridgestone Blizzaks are about the only non-studded tire that performs ok on ice, not great, but ok; however, their super soft compound means they don't last long in summer heat and it can get hot in the interior (90's) during the summer. I know people like them in places where studs are illegal, and I even had them on my TT for a while when they were the only winter tire I could get one year when the tire shop refused to re-mount my old studded tires back in the days when I couldn't afford dedicated sets. I guess my point is that a non-studded tire that has any chance of coping with ice has to be siped like crazy and should be made of a soft compound, which makes any all-season tire a compromise. It has been almost 60 years since I lived in Setec's neck of the woods so I have no idea just what he needs in the way of tires

Rant off

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Not to belabor the whole winter tire business, but here in NJ back in the RWD days, everyone put snow tires on in the winter. With the advent of all-season tires in the early 80's, and the onset of FWD (and later lots of AWD, traction control, etc.), most people get by ok with all-season tires here.

For a while my wife had a job where she had to go to work no matter what and she hates to drive in the snow so I got her a set of Hakka's (RSi's, if anyone is keeping score) for her FWD. I remember one time in a bad storm I asked her how the ride was to work, and she told me there was one hill with several SUV's stuck trying to get up. So I said "you were able to get up the hill?" And she said "yeah, I just drove around them".

So I understand there is no substitute for real winter tires, and in a perfect world where I had a giant garage with lots of storage space and a lift and money, I'd have winter tires and wheels for all the cars I drive in the winter. But there's tradeoff's with that, too, sometimes you have an early storm and you put them on and then it doesn't snow for 2 months, and you have to live with the noise, mushy handling, high treadwear, etc. So I live with the tradeoffs of all-season tires, at least right now.

 

[MisterSnoop]

I've run non-winter directionals before. I don't have an issue with them but I haven't really noticed any uneven wear that would have been mitigated by switching sides. you can get severe snow-rated all seasons. i'd avoid Vredestein tho.

 

[Texchappy]

Only had directions on one car - 2010 Lexus ISc. All four were different - all directional & the front and back were different sizes.

 

[chilly]

Not to belabor the whole winter tire business, but here in NJ back in the RWD days, everyone put snow tires on in the winter. With the advent of all-season tires in the early 80's, and the onset of FWD (and later lots of AWD, traction control, etc.), most people get by ok with all-season tires here.

For a while my wife had a job where she had to go to work no matter what and she hates to drive in the snow so I got her a set of Hakka's (RSi's, if anyone is keeping score) for her FWD. I remember one time in a bad storm I asked her how the ride was to work, and she told me there was one hill with several SUV's stuck trying to get up. So I said "you were able to get up the hill?" And she said "yeah, I just drove around them".

So I understand there is no substitute for real winter tires, and in a perfect world where I had a giant garage with lots of storage space and a lift and money, I'd have winter tires and wheels for all the cars I drive in the winter. But there's tradeoff's with that, too, sometimes you have an early storm and you put them on and then it doesn't snow for 2 months, and you have to live with the noise, mushy handling, high treadwear, etc. So I live with the tradeoffs of all-season tires, at least right now.

That's been our last two winters, put them on in Early November and then listen to them on the dry roads for most of the winter

But

Thankful for them the few times it got REALLY icy

Legally we can put them on September 15th but that is pretty crazy

Supposed to have them off May 1st but 3 of the last 5 winters there were emergency orders allowing them to stay on until May 15th due to major storms in late April

 

[Bunky]

Never had them, never think I will want/need them.

 

[Desertnate]

I've got little experience with them. I ran a set on my car back in the early 2000's and I've got two sets now.

One set is my autocross tires for the BRZ (which is RWD), but they don't really count for the purpose of this discussion since they are run on the car about once a month, are barely street legal, and have almost no tread. I swap them between front/back between every event and they seem to be wearing really evenly.

The second set are a Pirelli all weather (not all season, there is a difference) tire I just had mounted to the wife's SUV (which is AWD) about a month ago. I had been pondering a set of the Michelin Cross Climate's for a while, but had held off due to some things I saw in reviews I didn't like. The Pirelli's don't seem to suffer the same issues. After driving them about 900 miles this weekend, I've come to really like them. They are really quiet and the dry handling is quite good. I'm really looking forward to trying them out in bad weather, either rain or snow.

The first set of directionals I had were some summer tires also on a RWD car. They had a tread pattern not too different than what you see as the "severe wet" tires in some race series like F1, WEC, IMSA, and they were spectacular in the rain at all speeds and really good in the dry as well.

You can still rotate directional tires; you just swap them front/rear on the same side of the vehicle vs the cross/front to back pattern you see on many cars. The set I ran long ago had no wear issues doing this in daily street use. The new set so far is too new to tell, but I don't foresee any problems.

One thing I found is directional tires seem to have much better water evacuation than most traditional tires I've driven, probably for the same reasons that design works well in slush on snow tires. The downside is if the tire isn't designed properly they can be noisier than more traditional tread patterns.

 

[Bunky]

The second set are a Pirelli all weather (not all season, there is a difference) tire I just had mounted to the wife's SUV (which is AWD) about a month ago. I had been pondering a set of the Michelin Cross Climate's for a while, but had held off due to some things I saw in reviews I didn't like. The Pirelli's don't seem to suffer the same issues. After driving them about 900 miles this weekend, I've come to really like them. They are really quiet and the dry handling is quite good. I'm really looking forward to trying them out in bad weather, either rain or snow.

My SUV has Pirelli Scorpion MS tires that are not even sold in the US and if I have a tire issue, I will need to buy at least a pair of something else so reading and watching reviews. I do not need an all weather tire but they do not appear cost that much more these days. My first choice is Pirelli Scorpion AS Plus 3 so far (noise, ride are important for me).

The reviews of the new Cross Climate 3 are coming out.

 

[Desertnate]

We're running the Pirelli Scorpion WeatherActive.

In our area we get very little snow and the temperatures in the winter can range from the teens to the 60's with long stretches of dry weather and occasional rain. We don't have a need for dedicated snows but the all weather's seem to hit the sweet spot for our needs and geography. Many years ago when we had much harsher winters I ran dedicated snows on my car, but we don't get nearly as much snow as we used to and it's much warmer now in the winter, so they aren't needed and not well suited for the conditions.

 

[Bunky]

Around here the greatest danger is not slick roads but the other drivers on the slick roads. I just do not go out. Ice is usually a greater risk around here.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

The second set are a Pirelli all weather (not all season, there is a difference) tire I just had mounted to the wife's SUV (which is AWD) about a month ago. I had been pondering a set of the Michelin Cross Climate's for a while, but had held off due to some things I saw in reviews I didn't like.

you can get severe snow-rated all seasons. i'd avoid Vredestein tho.

Yes, I really started the thread because of the Michelin CrossClimate2, and the similar Goodyear Assurance Weatherready2 (which isn't yet and may never be available in the size for my AWD car). We used to call these "snowflake on the mountain" tires, now they call them "3PMSF", and I've had in my stable both of what I believe were the first of these tires available in the US, the Nokian WR and Vredstein Quatrac.

I actually still have the Quatrac 3's (I'm not sure if the Quatrac 2 was 3PMSF) on one car...they were...not so good...I'm planning on replacing them with Conti ExtremeContact DWS 06 Plus; the Quatracs were never really a good choice for that car but I guess it was an overreaction because I actually got stuck in the snow around the corner from my house with the OEM tires back when I used to drive that car in the snow.

The first set of directionals I had were some summer tires also on a RWD car. They had a tread pattern not too different than what you see as the "severe wet" tires in some race series like F1, WEC, IMSA, and they were spectacular in the rain at all speeds and really good in the dry as well.

Since we're (I'm?) reminiscing, I also had what I remember were the first directional tires for the street, the Goodyear Gatorback, which was based on their F1 rain tire.

You can still rotate directional tires; you just swap them front/rear on the same side of the vehicle vs the cross/front to back pattern you see on many cars.

Of course, it's just as I said, every car I have had the mfr recommends X-pattern rotation, not front-to-back; I presume they have a reason for that.

The reviews of the new Cross Climate 3 are coming out.

That tire won't be available here for a year or so. Since you mentioned it I looked for those reviews, and I guess everyone is jumping on the bandwagon with this "gatorback" style of directional 3PMSF tire, Michelin, Goodyear, Pirelli, Bridgestone, but not all of them are available here yet.

 

[Desertnate]

I actually still have the Quatrac 3's (I'm not sure if the Quatrac 2 was 3PMSF) on one car...they were...not so good...I'm planning on replacing them with Conti ExtremeContact DWS 06 Plus; the Quatracs were never really a good choice for that car but I guess it was an overreaction because I actually got stuck in the snow around the corner from my house with the OEM tires back when I used to drive that car in the snow.

I've never really trusted OEM tires and most have performed terribly in multiple ways for me. I happily go with other options as fast as they wear out, and in at least one case, even before they wore out.

The tires they ship in bulk to the factories for new vehicles are typically the cheapest thing the automaker can get that's in an appropriate class for the vehicle being built. The exceptions are some of the higher end performance cars and maybe some off road tires mounted to things like Jeeps and Bronco's.

Depending on the vehicle, you should be pretty happy with the Conti's. I'm running them year round as my daily driver tire on the BRZ.

Since we're (I'm?) reminiscing, I also had what I remember were the first directional tires for the street, the Goodyear Gatorback, which was based on their F1 rain tire.

I had a set of Bridgestone RE730's. You might be able to find a picture of them still even though they went out of production almost 20 years ago. Mounted to my BMW 3 series they were spectacular when we lived in the UK which seemed to always be wet and rainy. They performed quite nicely on twisty British back roads as well as high speeds on the Autobahn and the Autostrada too!

Of course, it's just as I said, every car I have had the mfr recommends X-pattern rotation, not front-to-back; I presume they have a reason for that.

From my limited understanding, that pattern (there are a couple variations) ensures no tire spends too long handling the loads unique to that axel or corner which evens out wear across all the tires. From experience I've seen cases where I didn't rotate often enough on a FWD car and the fronts wore out faster. On my autocross tires it's visibly obvious from event to event. On a tight course, the fronts take a lot of abuse compared to the rears. By simply swapping them front to rear each event it allows me to abuse each tire equally.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I've never really trusted OEM tires and most have performed terribly in multiple ways for me. I happily go with other options as fast as they wear out, and in at least one case, even before they wore out.
The tires they ship in bulk to the factories for new vehicles are typically the cheapest thing the automaker can get that's in an appropriate class for the vehicle being built. The exceptions are some of the higher end performance cars
Depending on the vehicle, you should be pretty happy with the Conti's. I'm running them year round as my daily driver tire on the BRZ.

Well, these were some sort of Michelin Pilot, they were ok when new but their wet and snow performance dropped off rapidly. I changed them out at 40K. I meant to mention I decided on the Conti’s for this car because of your comments in another thread some time ago. One of these months I’ll actually get around to getting them, this has been complicated by the tire shop I’ve been going to for decades closing up.

I had a set of Bridgestone RE730's.

Oh yeah, similar. The Goodyear Gatorback, if I’m remembering correctly, was introduced on the ’84 Corvette. I had a lesser Chevy at the time, but I decided it deserved that tire a few years later when there was general availability.

From my limited understanding, that pattern (there are a couple variations) ensures no tire spends too long handling the loads unique to that axel or corner which evens out wear across all the tires.

The direction of the X rotation is different for FWD vs. RWD/AWD, and back in the day some included the spare in the rotation. I think part of the equation here is the potential for belt shift that can occur over time, so they want you to spin the tire in the other direction by going to the other side of the vehicle.

Which is why I believe my tire shop didn’t want to do X-pattern, because although initially they had more of a high-end clientele, in later years they got a more, um, pedestrian cross-section, and probably had people coming in for a rotation for the first time in 40,000 miles, and spinning the tire the other direction after all that time was probably a recipe for disaster and a comeback “my car is worse than it was before I brought it here!”

I remember listening to the owner argue with a guy who had a 6-series BMW that they had put tires on, and maybe he parked the car for the winter, it was some length of time anyway, and he was complaining that the tires were all rough, and the owner explaining that he had flat-spotted them from being parked so long, and that he just needed to drive it some more to get them back to round. I even chimed in that it had happened to me, too, but he was having none of it. It always amazes me that these people who buy a $100,000 BMW (or other) don’t know anything about cars.

 

[Desertnate]

The direction of the X rotation is different for FWD vs. RWD/AWD, and back in the day some included the spare in the rotation. I think part of the equation here is the potential for belt shift that can occur over time, so they want you to spin the tire in the other direction by going to the other side of the vehicle.

I seem to remember hearing similar too. I remember helping my Dad rotate tires as a kid and he would bring the spare into the rotation. In my car ownership time, I'll have to admit not doing it. Some out of laziness and partly due to many of the cars only having a donut spare.

Which is why I believe my tire shop didn’t want to do X-pattern, because although initially they had more of a high-end clientele, in later years they got a more, um, pedestrian cross-section, and probably had people coming in for a rotation for the first time in 40,000 miles, and spinning the tire the other direction after all that time was probably a recipe for disaster and a comeback “my car is worse than it was before I brought it here!”

Makes perfect sense. I can't imagine how badly they could be feathered, not to mention the different wear rates between the tires. Rotate them in an X and all sorts of problems would crop up.

I remember listening to the owner argue with a guy who had a 6-series BMW that they had put tires on, and maybe he parked the car for the winter, it was some length of time anyway, and he was complaining that the tires were all rough, and the owner explaining that he had flat-spotted them from being parked so long, and that he just needed to drive it some more to get them back to round. I even chimed in that it had happened to me, too, but he was having none of it. It always amazes me that these people who buy a $100,000 BMW (or other) don’t know anything about cars.

This sounds like a media article I read a couple years ago about a car owner who sued an automaker after he crashed the car. The accident investigation showed the tires were totally bald and the car hydroplaned off the road. The owner claimed because the car was an EV the tires don't wear out and it was some other mechanical fault that caused the wreck. I really hope it never actually went to court.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I seem to remember hearing similar too. I remember helping my Dad rotate tires as a kid and he would bring the spare into the rotation. In my car ownership time, I'll have to admit not doing it. Some out of laziness and partly due to many of the cars only having a donut spare.

I never put the spare in the rotation, and anyway, it's been what, 35 years since cars had full-size spares? My '90 didn't, and my mother had an '88 that had a blow-up spare...that never got used in the entire 17 years she had that car. Maybe trucks/SUV's have/have had full-size spares more recently.

This sounds like a media article I read a couple years ago about a car owner who sued an automaker after he crashed the car. The accident investigation showed the tires were totally bald and the car hydroplaned off the road. The owner claimed because the car was an EV the tires don't wear out and it was some other mechanical fault that caused the wreck. I really hope it never actually went to court.

You may not remember this, but the reason GM put speed limiters in their cars, was, I think it was in the late 80's, someone was driving a Trans Am at 120mph and the Goodyear Custom Polysteel Radial RWL or whatever it was back in those "Smokey and the Bandit" days tire blew out and the driver got killed, and the passenger was paralyzed and sued GM for putting the tires on the car. GM's defense was that the driver was going over twice the speed limit, and it wasn't their fault.

GM lost the suit for putting tires that weren't rated for the speed capability of the car, so after that they electronically limited (fuel cutoff) the speed of the car to the rating of the tires.