The Definitive How-To Article for Removing Swirls, Scratches and Water Spots Using a Porter Cable 7424XP, G110v2 or Griot's Garage Polisher

Mike, would you mind posting pictures of the product that goes with the level of correction needed?

We carry a lot of paint correction products, my style is to be very detailed and in-depth, meaning that could take a while.

Meaning, I know what swirls are and I always start off with the least aggressive product first but a 'trained eye' would be able to tell that swirl remover might not work.

If I come across a car that has been wetsanded and that's it, I already know I need more than an ultra fine cut polish.


I get frustrated when I start with a swirl remover and do several section passes and there are still imperfections. I am using a Flex dual action polisher with Smart Pads. Maybe there is problem with my technique but I think if my eyes were trained I would have just gone with a more aggressive product first. I just get concerned about adding more work for myself by having to buff out the marks made from aggressive product.

What I have always done and still do today is a Test Spot, that is a test out pad and product combinations until I find the right combination that gets the job done and then buff out the rest of the car.

If you follow this procedure you should rarely ever buff out an entire car only to find out you're not getting the results you were trying for.


:)
 
We carry a lot of paint correction products, my style is to be very detailed and in-depth, meaning that could take a while.



If I come across a car that has been wetsanded and that's it, I already know I need more than an ultra fine cut polish.




What I have always done and still do today is a Test Spot, that is a test out pad and product combinations until I find the right combination that gets the job done and then buff out the rest of the car.

If you follow this procedure you should rarely ever buff out an entire car only to find out you're not getting the results you were trying for.


:)


Okay. I also have a question about knowing when I am actually done buffing something. Should it be completely smooth with no imperfections? Or do I use a filler or something to hide them?

Thanks
 
Mike,

Another superb informative thread that everyone should bookmark for future reference...:props:
 
Okay. I also have a question about knowing when I am actually done buffing something. Should it be completely smooth with no imperfections? Or do I use a filler or something to hide them?

Thanks


You know that's actually a really good question and the answer depends upon what your goal is?


100% Perfection
If you're aiming for 100% perfection or very close to it, then you need to thoroughly inspect each section you buff after the first correction step and make sure all the defects you want to remove and feel comfortable removing have been removed.

If there are still defects in that section then you need to re-buff that section till you're satisfied with the condition of the paint at this time.

It's okay if there's still haze from the buffing process, but ANY "below surface defects" that you don't want to see after you make your final wipe still remain then you need to continue buffing till they are fully removed during this first correction step.

If you don't remove them during the first correction step then they will still be there after the final wipe.

The way to inspect is like you see me doing here in this article, this is how I normally inspect after wetsanding paint and then after the first compounding step. The sanding marks must be removed after the compounding step because the polishing step are only going to restore gloss and clarity. Polishing will remove some of any defects left after compounding of course, but the major portion of any below surface defects must be removed after what I call "The Major Correction Step" in my first how-to book.


Damp-Sanding Tools, Tips and Techniques by Mike Phillips


Checking my work each step of the way by wiping with Mineral Spirits and using the Brinkmann Swirl Finder Light to insure no sanding marks were missed and no swirls were left behind.

redelcamino_033.jpg



For really low panels, if you hold the light down low and at just the right angle it will shine just right to show the "surface" condition of the paint, this is the area you want to be looking at when inspecting. The part of the light I'm using in these shots is the small lit up area that's is the reflection of the bulb in the paint, not the large blown out area lit up by the light.

redelcamino_034.jpg



redelcamino_035.jpg


Note: You never chemically strip fresh paint using products like IPA or MS. The paint on this El Camino was a custom paint job but when I sanded and buffed it, it was already a few years old, i.e. no longer "fresh" paint as in 30 days or less old.




90% Defect Removal
If you're aiming to remove the majority of the shallow swirls, scratches and other below surface defects but not the deeper RIDS or random, isolated deeper scratches, then you should be accomplishing this using the system you dial-in during the correction step of your Test Spot. After doing the correction and/or the correction and polishing step of your Test Spot, inspect thoroughly that section of paint.

If you're happy with the results from your Test Spot, then theoretically, if you repeat or duplicate the process you didn in your test spot to the rest of the car then you should produce the same results.

For this type of buffing I normally don't inspect each panel after I buff it it I assume and trust in my skills to be doing good work.


Great question, I think I'll turn this question and the answers into an article so this information isn't buried on 5 of this thread where fewer people will find it.


Thank you for asking...


:dblthumb2:
 
Mike,

Another superb informative thread that everyone should bookmark for future reference...:props:


Thank you Bobby, that means a lot to me coming from you. :xyxthumbs:


The time stamp on this article is, 08-18-2009, 11:49 AM and I officially went to work for Autogeek on Monday, August 10th, 2009 and this was the first major article I wrote.

(I arrived on Friday August 7th and came into the office to meet everyone and get situated but didn't start working till Monday, here's my first post from my office at Autogeek)

I think it's around 8000 words long and at that time the most detailed article on using a DA Polisher I had ever written.

Yancy took all the photos for this article as I was the "new guy". After this article I went back to taking all my own pictures for my articles like I did previously on MOL.

If you look at a majority of the pictures they are all 450 pixels wide and have a border around them, that's Yancy's style, or it was back then.

My style is 800 pixels wide and I don't bother with a border.


But again, thank you Bobby, I appreciate the compliment and I think the majority of the information presented in this article is still accurate today.

I know I copy and paste a lot of the text into replies I post every week and in articles and even videos I make today.


:)
 
Okay. I also have a question about knowing when I am actually done buffing something. Should it be completely smooth with no imperfections? Or do I use a filler or something to hide them?

Thanks



Hey Mitchell!

You're now part of a article that will probably be around for decades...


How do you know when to stop buffing?



:xyxthumbs:
 
WOww
that is very good tread. I like it and thumbs up for those who started it. You explained very well guy that how to remove the strains and scratches from the body of car without any trouble. I really appreciate your work.
 
WOww
that is very good tread. I like it and thumbs up for those who started it. You explained very well guy that how to remove the strains and scratches from the body of car without any trouble. I really appreciate your work.


Thank you Albert.

This is one of the longest, most in-depth articles I have ever written on this topic. Like I told a co-worker this morning, it's hard to teach people how to buff out a car using a keyboard but with carefully chosen word the goal can be reached if people will simply read the article instead of scanning it.


Just to note, if you find any other article on this topic, my guess is it will basically regurgitate what has been written here as this was and is the first article ever written on the topic of how to use a DA Polisher. It's actually a re-write of the article I originally wrote while I worked for Meguiar's.


The principals and techniques shared are just as accurate today as when I first wrote this article and I share all of these in all my classes, both formal and informal.


:xyxthumbs:
 
Excellent thread! Thanks Mike for sharing your wealth of knowledge in such detail that is easy to understand.

I have a question relating to the test spot. When starting out and doing the test spot, is it done all the way from compounding, polishing to sealing and waxing before moving on to the rest of the car? Is is safe to say only do the compounding and polishing on the test spot, then transfer the method to the entire car then follow up by a sealant or wax on the entire car last?
 
Excellent thread! Thanks Mike for sharing your wealth of knowledge in such detail that is easy to understand.

I have a question relating to the test spot. When starting out and doing the test spot, is it done all the way from compounding, polishing to sealing and waxing before moving on to the rest of the car? Is is safe to say only do the compounding and polishing on the test spot, then transfer the method to the entire car then follow up by a sealant or wax on the entire car last?

I'm not Mike, but maybe I can help a tiny bit.

I may be completely wrong, but to me a 'test spot' is for the compounding step. Once you get rid of the scratches, etc, the polishing stages are more or less automatic.

Bill
 
This may be a pretty simple/stupid question, but how often do you need to reapply product?
 
This may be a pretty simple/stupid question, but how often do you need to reapply product?


No such thing as a stupid question on this forum and your question is a good one and a common one at that.

When you buff out a car using a Porter Cable "type" of dual action polisher, you divide large panels into smaller sections and then buff each section out at one time. After you buff out one section you stop buffing, wipe the residue off of that section and then clean your pad, apply fresh or new product and move onto the next section.

When you move onto a new section you overlap a little into the previous section for uniform material removal.

UMR = Uniform Material Removal

That is, you want to remove as much material, (material in this case would be car paint), in one area as you do all areas for a uniform, swirl free or defect free looking finish.


:)
 
In this thread here,

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...hillips/70853-how-would-you-section-hood.html

See post #4

How I would section any body panel would be easier to figure out if I were standing right in front of the vehicle, that said, here's how I would probably divide the hood into smaller sections to polish with a Porter Cable type dual action polisher. If using a more powerful tool, rotary , Flex 3401 or Rupes, you could take the small section I've outlined and tackle more of them at one time. I'd still divide the center large mass of the hood into at least two section and possibly 4 sections depending how much correction is needed.


Chevy_Hood_Sectioned_01.jpg




These, longer, THINNER sections of a body panel are the norm for a lot of cars, trucks and suvs and this is why I like 5.5" pads on tools like the PC and even 4" Spot Repair Pads and that's because smaller diameter pads fit modern cars better than large pads.

Chevy_Hood_Sectioned_02.jpg




I drew lines to show how to divide a large hood into smaller sections. You would buff each one of these sections out one at a time.

After you buff a section, wipe the residue off the paint in that section and move onto a new section.

Before you move on, clean your pad with a pad brush or using the "clean your pad on the fly method".

Just like you removed the residue off the panel after buffing it, you're going to have residue on the face of your buffing pad. If you don't remove this residue, which is removed paint and spent product, it will build up and create a caked-up mess.

From my article list and also in my how-to book, ebook and ibook...


How to clean your foam pad on the fly

Why it's important to clean your pads often...



:xyxthumbs:
 
Thank you for the tips Mike. Can you provide any tricks for the Flex and Rupes owners out there as well. Thanks in advance if the same tips apply.
 
Mike, thanks for your many tips. I recently bought a GG DA from you all, but haven't used it yet. I'm waiting for a whole day of good weather.

Anyway, before I use my pads for the first time, do I need to condition them with either QD spray or the polish that I'm using at the time? I hear so many options for conditioning. I'm going to be removing swirls with WG swirl remover and WG sealant and I also have the Klasse twins that I will be using on my truck.
 
Mike, thanks for your many tips. I recently bought a GG DA from you all, but haven't used it yet. I'm waiting for a whole day of good weather.

Anyway, before I use my pads for the first time, do I need to condition them with either QD spray or the polish that I'm using at the time?

Pre-conditioning a pad with a liquid is an option that some like to use for cutting pads, both foam and wool.

Another option is to condition or "prime" them with the product you're going to use with them, this is what I tend to do.


I hear so many options for conditioning. I'm going to be removing swirls with WG swirl remover and WG sealant and I also have the Klasse twins that I will be using on my truck.

Just prime your pads using the polishes you have... like this,


How to prime a foam pad when using a DA Polisher


Here are 3 ways to apply product to your pad.

1. Priming the pad then adding product to work with

Priming a clean, dry pad is considered the best approach for using a DA Polisher because it ensures that 100% of the working surface of the pad is wet with product and working at maximum efficiency when you turn the polisher on. I originally learned of this technique from my friend Kevin Brown.

Priming the pad also ensures that you don't have any dry portion of the pad working over the paint un-lubricated. This really isn't a risk because since you're just starting out you're going to be removing defects a lot more serious than would be caused by any portion of the pad that is dry and spinning against the paint.

Plus, after just a few passes, the product you apply to specific areas of the face of the pad will migrate over the entire face of the pad and it will do this rather quickly when you're on the higher speed settings.



Priming the Pad - For clean, dry pads
Start with a clean, dry pad and add some fresh product to be spread out to the face of the pad. Using your finger, spread the product out over the pad and then using your finger work it into the pores of the pad. Don't saturate the pad, just use enough product to make sure that 100% of the working face of the pad has product coverage.

PrimingPad01.jpg


PrimingPad02.jpg



Work the product around the face of the pad and into the pores
PrimingPad03.jpg


PrimingPad04.jpg



Any extra, take and apply to the outer edge until 100% of the working face of the pad is primed with product.
PrimingPad05.jpg




As an option you can also prime the outer edge. This helps if you're buffing around convex curves or around panels that the edge of your buffing pad may come into contact with, like spoilers, side mirror housings, curved panels etc.

PrimingPad06.jpg


PrimingPad07.jpg



Primed and ready to add "Working Product" to.
PrimingPad09.jpg


PrimingPad08.jpg





Adding "Working Product" to the primed pad
Some people will recommend 3 to 4 pea size drops of product as the proper amount of product to use and this can be correct for concentrated products or working small sections and if you follow this advice make sure you are not under-lubricating the surface being worked.

Pea size drops of product
PrimingPad10.jpg


PrimingPad11.jpg




For some products and paint conditions, you may want more product on the surface working for you. Here's an example of dime size drops of product.

Dime size drops of product
PrimingPad12.jpg


PrimingPad13.jpg




How much product to use after priming

Ample
You want an AMPLE amount of product when first starting out because you pad is dry and some of the product is going to seep into the pad leaving less on the surface to LUBRICATE and ABRADE the paint

Cut down on the amount of product AFTER pad is broken-in...
After your pad is broken in with product, clean your pad after each section pass and when you apply fresh product you can cut down on the amount of product you actually apply to the face of your pad.


Too Little Product
Under-using product reduces lubricity and will make it more difficult for your pad to rotate efficiently.

Too Much Product
Using too much product will hyper-lubricate or over-lubricate the pad and will interfere with the abrasives ability to abrade the paint.


Keep in mind that you want enough product on the surface so you have,
  • Abrasives working for you.
  • A lubricating film between the paint and the pad.
Often times if you don't have enough product to work with you'll end up buffing to a dry buff. When you lose lubrication, friction increase and this can lead to micro-marring or hazing.



:xyxthumbs:
 
Video: Mark your backing plate to make it easy to see pad rotation


MarkYourBackingPlate01.jpg


Here's a quick video that show how and why to mark your backing plate to see and monitor pad rotation while doing any correction or polishing steps.



[video=youtube_share;QM8PnDooZP8&hd=1"]How To Check Pad Rotation on a DA Polisher -...[/video]​



It's also important to maintain pad rotation with PC style tools when using a one-step cleaner/wax or AIO type product on neglected paint.

It's not vital to maintain pad rotating when applying a finishing wax or finishing paint sealant to a finish that you've just buffed out.


:)
 
Also, read through this before you get into trouble...


DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide


Tyler, age 15 removing swirls using a Porter Cable 7424XP Dual Action Polisher
1965Plymouth035.jpg


When you're first starting out machine polishing and learning to use a DA Polisher it's common to have questions about your results and your results are directly tied to your technique.

Here's a list of the most common problems,
1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.

2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.

3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.

4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.

5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.

6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.

7. Using too much product or using too little product.

8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
Shrink the size of your work area down. You can't tackle to large of an area at one time. The average size work area should be around 20" by 20". Most generic recommendations say to work an area 2' by 2' but for the correction step, that's too large. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot. The harder the paint the smaller the area you want to work.


2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's easy and actually natural for most people new to machine polishing to move the polisher quickly over the paint but that's the wrong technique. One reason I think people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they hear the sound of the motor spinning fast and this has psychological effect which causes them to match their arm movement to the perceived fast speed of the polisher's motor.

Another reason people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they think like this,

"If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster"

But it doesn't work that way. Anytime you're trying to remove swirls, scratches, water spots or oxidation using a DA Polisher you need to move the polisher s-l-o-w-l-y over the paint.



3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting but this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad oscillating and rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the abrasives, the pad aggressiveness, and the downward pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches.

Removing below surface defects is a leveling process where you need the abrasives to take little bites out of the paint and to get the abrasives to take these little bites with a tool that uses a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly you need all of the above factors working for you including a high speed setting.



4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much downward pressure to the polisher and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.



5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.
If you push too hard you will slow down the rotating movement of the pad and the abrasives won't be effectively worked against the paint. You need to apply firm pressure to engage the abrasives against the paint but no so much that the pad is barely rotating. This is where it's a good idea to use a permanent black marker to make a mark on the back of your backing plate so your eyes can easily see if the pad is rotating or not and this will help you to adjust your downward pressure accordingly.

Correct technique means finding a balance of applying enough downward pressure to remove defects but not too much downward pressure as to stop the rotating movement of the pad.

This balance is affected by a lot of factors like the lubricity of the product you're using, some compounds and polishes provide more lubrication than others and this makes it easier to maintain pad rotation under pressure.

Another factor that can affect pad rotation are raised body lines, edges and curved surfaces as anytime you have uneven pressure on just a portion of the face of the pad it can slow or stop pad rotation. This is where experience comes into play and experience comes from time spent behind the polisher.



6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one edge of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease abrading ability.



7. Using too much product or using too little product.
Too much product hyper-lubricates the surface and the result is that abrasives won't effectively bite into the paint but instead will tend to skim over the surface. Overusing product will also accelerate pad saturation as well increase the potential for slinging splatter onto adjacent panels.

Too little product will means too little lubrication and this can interfere with pad rotation.

Again there needs to be a balance between too much product and too little product and finding this balance comes from reading articles like this one, watching videos an most important, going out into the garage and putting in time behind the polisher and as you're buffing with specific product and pad combinations, pay attention to pad rotation.



8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Most people simply don't clean their pad often enough to maximize the effectiveness of their DA Polisher. Anytime you're abrading the paint you have two things building up on the face of your buffing pad,
  • Removed paint
  • Spent product
As these to things build up on the face of the pad they become gummy and this has a negative affect on pad rotating plus makes wiping the leftover residue on the paint more difficult. To maintain good pad rotation you want to clean your pad often and always wipe-off any leftover product residue off the paint after working a section. Never add fresh product to your pad and work a section that still has leftover product residue on it.


Pad Cleaning Articles

Why it's important to clean your pads often...

How to clean your foam pad on the fly

How to use the Grit Guard Universal Pad Washer


Tyler, age 15 machine applying a paste wax using a Porter Cable 7424XP Dual Action Polisher

1965Plymouth067.jpg


1965Plymouth071.jpg



:buffing:
 
Thank you for the tips Mike. Can you provide any tricks for the Flex and Rupes owners out there as well.

Thanks in advance if the same tips apply.


Working on a new project right now, have this already done though...

How to use the FLEX 3401 Dual Action Polisher


Was answering a question on the YouTube page for this video and noticed it never was shared on the forum.



How to use the FLEX 3401 Dual Action Polisher


[video=youtube_share;Arn_kVH3BVc"]Video showing before and after[/video]​



:)
 
Thanks! As usual a very generous helping of Mike's knowledge :props: Awesome!
 
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