This one is for anyone who says a DA can't remove swirls...

[Kevin Brown]

...I really don't think pads play as bigger part in paint correction on a hard clear coat as much as process used and the right machine and technique...

Boy, oh boy, I would have to disagree with you on the pad part of the statement.

Of course process and technique are important.

As for the right machine... debatable in regards to who is the authority that decides which machine is the right one.


The rest of this post is not aimed at you, Harleyguy... your post just made me think about some things.

Joe Paint Polisher may be killer with a rotary, but not so great with a random orbital. For him, he may be wise to use a rotary. At least until he decides to learn more about the RO and how to get the most out of one. Of course, vice versa with the machines applies.

A guy like Asphalt Rocket prefers a rotary.
He seems to be very good with the machine. I say seems because most of us don't get the chance to see his work in person. We have to give him some benefit of the doubt, and of course the pictures he posts tell part of the story. Customer satisfaction is a big deal, too.
A lot of guys appreciate Dana's work and help. rops:

A guy like TH0001 is fiercely loyal to his rotary.
Or was. He now uses both the rotary and the random orbital.
He seems to be very good with the machines. I say seems because most of us don't get the chance to see his work in person. We have to give him some benefit of the doubt, and of course the pictures he posts tell part of the story. Customer satisfaction is a big deal, too.
A lot of guys appreciate Todd's work and help. :xyxthumbs:

A guy like gmblack3 is very good with his rotary, and preferred it for the longest time. Now he uses the random orbital with an interesting approach (different pad and process). He seems to be very good with the machines and happy to use a different approach, if only to learn something new and further hone his skills.
I say seems because most of us don't get the chance to see his work in person. We have to give him some benefit of the doubt, and of course the pictures he posts tell part of the story. Customer satisfaction is a big deal, too.
A lot of guys appreciate Bryan's work and help. :coolgleam:

A LOT of guys seem to be great paint polishers.
Some guys are DEFINITELY very good photographers. :wow:

Does this mean that any one of the three guys mentioned by name are suddenly less good after they switched to a different machine or approach, yet did not take fantastic pics?

Would a guy that is known to be a VERY capable paint polisher voluntarily post pics of a car that he deems to have a GREAT finish, even if it does not? Why would he risk it... to prove he's different? What a wonderful marketing campaign.

Nope- it is best that we give him some benefit of the doubt, and of course the pictures he posts tell part of the story. Customer satisfaction is a big deal, too.

If some of us accept that any one of these guys are GOOD at what they do... most of us have to take their word for it and use the pics to help us along. If the customer chimes in and is happy, that's cool... but not even the pickiest of customers can pick apart a paint job like MOST of the guys on this forum.:buffing:

Whether or not two guy see eye to eye on all aspects of paint polishing does not matter.
It's the finish that counts.

 

[OCDetails]

Long story sorry but i just don't see the Pc doing the same correction as a rotary not saying it can't be done on certain cars .But the time it takes there is no way you can make a sizeable profit if you do this fulltime.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. I'm not here to brag or promote myself, but I can tell you that when I detail full time I clear over $1500 per week. There isn't anything wrong with my process or my speed as far as my clients are concerned. I can't see how I could go any faster than I go using a rotary. Maybe it would save me a couple minutes, but that is a big maybe. I'd put my DA against anybody's rotary on the same vehicle any day of the week. What my DA may lack in speed, I make up with in an efficient process.

Besides, this is primarily an enthusiast board anyway. Most enthusiasts who are only concerned about detailing their own cars couldn't care less about getting a $300 rotary and learning how to use it so they can get spiderwebs out of their 2009 M5. A DA is the perfect tool for someone who wants to maintain their vehicle and also wants a tool that is capable of much more. A rotary is definitely a professional tool that should only be handled by professionals who have a need for it. I just haven't had the need. Again, if I were detailing RVs and boats all day then hell yeah, I'd get me a rotary. I know what the limitations of a DA are and those projects are not something I ever want to tackle with a DA again. Way too much work. But for a car with normal swirls and scratches I don't think the additional power of a rotary is necessary when the FLEX DA is so capable.

Someone show me damage that they were unable to repair with a DA but their rotary solved for them. I'd love to see that. Then I'd love to know how often a vehicle like that is going to come along. My guess is that the average enthusiast weekend warrior and part time detailer out there will find that a nice DA like the FLEX is perfect for them. Efficient, powerful, and incredibly safe to use.

 

[Superdutytd]

I wouldn't even consider the Flex as one of the DA's. I would more call it a hybrid DA/Rotary as it does both. I have removed some pretty heavy duty stuff with my flex.

 

[Rsurfer]

I wouldn't even consider the Flex as one of the DA's. I would more call it a hybrid DA/Rotary as it does both. I have removed some pretty heavy duty stuff with my flex.

I agree, but OCDetails keeps referring to the Flex as a DA. It's like calling a Makita a Flex. If I didn't have an ocean between us I would take you up on that bet. What happens to the part-time detailer that has a badly swriled car with RIDS. Are you seriously telling me that you can correct these defects with a Flex faster than a rotary? Yes, the weekend warrior or nubie would benefit by a Flex, but as I said earlier in my post..the new DA's are much closer to the Flex than before.... at $300 bucks you could get a Griot for $130 bucks and the Griot has a lifetime guarantee. What's the warantee on the Flex?

 

[Bert31]

I thought the Edge Blue pads were finishing pads?

 

[OCDetails]

I try not to label my pads as one thing or the other. I'm from the school of whatever works. I've found I get less haze when I use the blue pad and a stronger polish than I do when I use a yellow pad and a weaker polish. For my process it goes quicker when I use the blue pad. It may not be meant for cutting swirls, but judging by the results, can you really argue that it can't do the job? A full detail for me takes between 3 and 4 hours depending on the size of the vehicle. I get stuck with a lot of SUVs in Utah, so usually closer to the 4 hour mark for those. That includes engine and interior as well. I don't think I'm lacking any speed by using the blue pad.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Good thread!

 

[jake66]

I try not to label my pads as one thing or the other. I'm from the school of whatever works. I've found I get less haze when I use the blue pad and a stronger polish than I do when I use a yellow pad and a weaker polish. For my process it goes quicker when I use the blue pad. It may not be meant for cutting swirls, but judging by the results, can you really argue that it can't do the job? A full detail for me takes between 3 and 4 hours depending on the size of the vehicle. I get stuck with a lot of SUVs in Utah, so usually closer to the 4 hour mark for those. That includes engine and interior as well. I don't think I'm lacking any speed by using the blue pad.

I would love to learn how to do one in 3-4 hours, mine seems to take me more like 3-4 DAYS.

 

[CTS-Veo]

This is a very interesting read. It seems that alot of people have very different oppinions, yet feel passionate about their way being correct (I guess this isn't a unique situation though).

I definately feel like I have a dilema in this area... The first paint correction machine that I bought was a Dewalt rotary. I bought it with the intention of my friend and cousin (who are both detailers) would teach me how to use it on my car. This ended up with them just polishing my car with my rotary, and I never really learned a thing.

Since then I have purchased a Griots DA (gen 1), and a PC XP with all kinds of 4" to 7.5" LC pads.

My dilema is this.... I only detail my own cars, and my family/friends cars. I could find a project to practice on the Dewalt rotary, and try to master the rotary; or I could get a Flex DA for heavier correction, and stay away from the rotary. I don't know if I'm a little more fearfull of the rotary than I should be, but the Flex seems to be a safer option. The Flex option also seems kind of foolish, since I already own the Dewalt.... I just don't want to get into any trouble with the rotary.

Opinions please...

 

[OCDetails]

I wouldn't even consider the Flex as one of the DA's. I would more call it a hybrid DA/Rotary as it does both. I have removed some pretty heavy duty stuff with my flex.

I demonstrated some polishers at SEMA to a few people by having them put their hand on the pad of the FLEX DA while at speed and then putting their hand on a rotary at speed. Your hand heats up in seconds on the rotary, but it never gets uncomfortable on the FLEX. I think it definitely has more cutting power than a traditional DA where the pad spins freely, but it still doesn't generate the heat of a rotary, so I would expect that a rotary would still be a significantly more powerful tool at paint correction. It might be interesting to put one against a rotary when clearing up wetsanding haze or something that a rotary is best at. Maybe Mike Phillips can help us out with that comparison one of these days.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I don't know if I'm a little more fearful of the rotary than I should be,

It's not that bad, just start out with smaller pads and backing plate and practice on something that's not important to you, like a hood out of the wrecking yard or your neighbor's car.




For anyone reading this interested into purchasing and learning how to use a rotary buffer, I can't recommend the Flex Lightweight Rotary Buffer enough.

This is such a nice tool, it's small, lightweight, (only 5 pounds), and easy to control and that's the primary goal of learning how to use a rotary buffer and that's learning how to control it.

Check out Nick Chapman's review here,

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/flex-polishers/21946-flex-3403-review.html

I'm not much for writing reviews, but wanted to share my experience with this product.

As some of you know, I hosted a detailing class Saturday November 14th. Mike Phillips joined us, and taught the class. He brought an assortment of tools and products with him to share. While he was here I stole the Flex rotary(3403) from him for a while. I was torn on the decision of buying one because they were so expensive(about the same as the Makita), but after buffing for a full day with it I must say that it is work every penny! The machine is no noisier than the Makita that I'm used to using. It's a TON lighter! Smaller body, which makes it easier to manage.

Only negative is the 1100rpm starting point. I thought this would be a huge issue for me, but as it turns out, it's not at all. I'm able to leave a fantastic finish at 1100rpm's, and do not have the need(yet) to go any slower.

Pro's:
Lightweight
Small Body
low noise
Easy to use

Cons:
High price tag-although about the same as the Makita
1100rpm starting point


So that's all I have to say about that. Two thumbs up for this machine!:dblthumb2: Definitely a keeper for sure! I have retired my trusty Makita to one of my employees, and I now buff with the 3403 only.
Please ask what I didn't cover. I'm not great at writing reviews, but if you have a specific question I'd be happy to answer it.

FLEX L3403 VRG Lightweight Circular Polisher

Nick

Nick using the Flex 3403 with a 4" Hydro-Tech Cyan Cutting Pad

:xyxthumbs:

 

[Rsurfer]

This is a very interesting read. It seems that alot of people have very different oppinions, yet feel passionate about their way being correct (I guess this isn't a unique situation though).

I definately feel like I have a dilema in this area... The first paint correction machine that I bought was a Dewalt rotary. I bought it with the intention of my friend and cousin (who are both detailers) would teach me how to use it on my car. This ended up with them just polishing my car with my rotary, and I never really learned a thing.

Since then I have purchased a Griots DA (gen 1), and a PC XP with all kinds of 4" to 7.5" LC pads.

My dilema is this.... I only detail my own cars, and my family/friends cars. I could find a project to practice on the Dewalt rotary, and try to master the rotary; or I could get a Flex DA for heavier correction, and stay away from the rotary. I don't know if I'm a little more fearfull of the rotary than I should be, but the Flex seems to be a safer option. The Flex option also seems kind of foolish, since I already own the Dewalt.... I just don't want to get into any trouble with the rotary.

Opinions please...

It's like driving your daily driver on the freeway for the first time. Little nervous, but a breeze in no time. Now take a race car on a track... really nervous, but as time goes by your confidence builds. You may never be a top driver, but you can handle the track respectfully. I know this cause I've done it. Just like going from a DA to a rotary.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I
Maybe Mike Phillips can help us out with that comparison one of these days.

I cut my teeth using a Sioux Rotary Buffer, it probably weight around 30 pounds!

I purchased my first rotary buffer in 1988 and still have it today, it's a Makita 9227SPC, now days they call it a Makita 9227C

I've used the Flex 3401 and I agree with Anthony in that it doesn't have as much power as a rotary buffer but more power than a Porter Cable type polisher but it has the safety of a Porter Cable style polisher. Something for everyone!

I will say that unless you're goal is to produce serious show car finishes to be viewed under excruciating lights at a car show by judges, then for the majority of people in this world, either a Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher or a Flex 3401 are both great tools that will tackle just about anything you come up against.

After years of doing complete rotary buffer multi-step buff-outs, it is my opinion that using a Flex 3401 or a Porter Cable type polisher will get you great results without having to "in most cases" do as many steps and with less physical work as man-handling a rotary buffer does take some arm, back and shoulder strength. Again, this is another reason to check out the Flex 3403 Lightweight Rotary Buffer.


As far as this thread goes, personal preference plays such an important factor when it comes to "The Best Way To Buff Out A Car".

I recommend everyone purchase one of each of the polishers we offer on the below webpage and then put some hours behind them to get real-world experience to better help you decide what's best for you. Of course if you already own one or two polishers, only purchase the models missing from your arsenal.


Autogeek's Selection of Electric Polishers



As far as anyone arguing someone to their veiowpoint... probably not a good idea and won't happen anyway...

One thing I learned a long time ago about wax wars on discussion forums is that even if you win you lose...

But a healthy debate is good for the circulation in your brain and your typing fingers as long as everyone is respectful in their replies.

 

[Bradshaw]

I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. I'm not here to brag or promote myself, but I can tell you that when I detail full time I clear over $1500 per week. There isn't anything wrong with my process or my speed as far as my clients are concerned. I can't see how I could go any faster than I go using a rotary. Maybe it would save me a couple minutes, but that is a big maybe. I'd put my DA against anybody's rotary on the same vehicle any day of the week. What my DA may lack in speed, I make up with in an efficient process.

Besides, this is primarily an enthusiast board anyway. Most enthusiasts who are only concerned about detailing their own cars couldn't care less about getting a $300 rotary and learning how to use it so they can get spiderwebs out of their 2009 M5. A DA is the perfect tool for someone who wants to maintain their vehicle and also wants a tool that is capable of much more. A rotary is definitely a professional tool that should only be handled by professionals who have a need for it. I just haven't had the need. Again, if I were detailing RVs and boats all day then hell yeah, I'd get me a rotary. I know what the limitations of a DA are and those projects are not something I ever want to tackle with a DA again. Way too much work. But for a car with normal swirls and scratches I don't think the additional power of a rotary is necessary when the FLEX DA is so capable.

Someone show me damage that they were unable to repair with a DA but their rotary solved for them. I'd love to see that. Then I'd love to know how often a vehicle like that is going to come along. My guess is that the average enthusiast weekend warrior and part time detailer out there will find that a nice DA like the FLEX is perfect for them. Efficient, powerful, and incredibly safe to use.

Alot of cars do just fine with DA, but Ive been on some 20 hour details that a DA isn't near enough. Ive seen plenty of hard paint, like on Vettes, that the paint will not level unless a rotary is used...Rotaries don't cost $300 either, fyi, I believe I paid $188 shipped for my Makita last year.

 

[OCDetails]

Rotaries don't cost $300 either, fyi, I believe I paid $188 shipped for my Makita last year.

Neither do most DAs, but the FLEX DA pushes $300. I have seen some pretty spendy machines out there, but I'm not arguing that there is a spread of prices for them out there.

 

[Bert31]

I try not to label my pads as one thing or the other. I'm from the school of whatever works. I've found I get less haze when I use the blue pad and a stronger polish than I do when I use a yellow pad and a weaker polish. For my process it goes quicker when I use the blue pad. It may not be meant for cutting swirls, but judging by the results, can you really argue that it can't do the job? A full detail for me takes between 3 and 4 hours depending on the size of the vehicle. I get stuck with a lot of SUVs in Utah, so usually closer to the 4 hour mark for those. That includes engine and interior as well. I don't think I'm lacking any speed by using the blue pad.

I guess that makes since. I will agree with you that I often prefer to go aggressive with my polish rather than my pad (for instance using M105 on a polishing pad versus SIP on a light cutting pad) but going all the way down to a pad that some use to apply sealants and glazes is quite surprising. I am impressed that you are able to get the type of cut you need.

 

[OCDetails]

I use the white Edge2000 pad for applying sealants and waxes. I've tried using it with polishes and it is fairly ineffective, so the only thing I feel it is good for is waxing. There needs to be a more standardized system of pad colorings.

A blue pad isn't the same cut with every manufacture. It may be that the Edge pads I'm using have a little more cutting power than a blue pad with another maker. I've been so happy with my Edge system tha I really haven't had any reason to become much of a pad connoisseur, so I'm not much help in what does what. That is where the 'whatever works' philosophy comes in handy.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I've seen a video where Mike Pennington was using Ultimate Compound with a finishing pad to remove swirls with a G110

I always recommend testing combination first before going over the entire car and of course using the least aggressive product to get the job done.

 

[CTS-Veo]

It's not that bad, just start out with smaller pads and backing plate and practice on something that's not important to you, like a hood out of the wrecking yard or your neighbor's car.

What is considered "smaller" for a rotary? 4" 5.5" or 6.5"?

It's like driving your daily driver on the freeway for the first time. Little nervous, but a breeze in no time. Now take a race car on a track... really nervous, but as time goes by your confidence builds. You may never be a top driver, but you can handle the track respectfully. I know this cause I've done it. Just like going from a DA to a rotary.

Excellent analogy! It's pretty much the same fear as the first time I took my car to a road course. I knew once I got the hang of it, I would be fine. I was just worried about the "getting the hang of it" phase...

The hood on my V need to be repainted anyways, so that would be a good practice piece I guess.

Another question... Is learning on a single stage paint easier or harder than a clear coat paint? My dad has a 56 Dodge Coranet that he wants to have restored, so I could also learn on that.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

What is considered "smaller" for a rotary? 4" 5.5" or 6.5"?

Relative to an 8" pad those are all small pads.

You might get different answers to a question like that but to me a small pad is 4" pad. You can go small but that would be for specialty buffing in tight areas or for thin panels.

4" and 5.5" pads are very easy to control and thus learn how to control the tool itself.

Another question... Is learning on a single stage paint easier or harder than a clear coat paint? My dad has a 56 Dodge Coronet that he wants to have restored, so I could also learn on that.

That would be such a fun car to buff out!

1956 Dodge Coronet

It's not that single stage is easier to learn how to use a rotary buffer, it just tends to be softer than a clear coat finish so getting good results would usually be easier.

There's a few tricks to buffing out antique, oxidized paint, if you decide to tackle this old 1956 Coronet, do please get some great before pictures and start a thread for it and I'll do my best to post some pointers.

Check out these two threads,

The practical differences between single stage paints and a clear coat paints

The power in the after shots is created in the before shots

The last link has good before and after pictures showing you what can be done with single stage paint if it's not too far gone.