5.4 Shelby
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Haven't really looked at them yet. Always liked the Lightnings.
Smoked a pad.
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richy
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Once again, my Canadian wanna be buddy Dana has nailed it. I don't care what Mike Phillips suggests...that much pressure is too much!! Either let up on the pressure; change to a rotary (where you will get faster and better correction) or change products. Good advice there.
5.4 Shelby
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I will eventually step up to a rotary. I want to get more comfortable with the DA first.
I have already decided to order M105/205, LC flat pads and Menz 85rd. I will change one factor at a time to try to figure out my mistake.
I was using a good 20-25 on the first pad. That prob is too much for the more powerful Griots DA. IT is much more powerful than my old PC. I was using very little pressure on the second pad that I ruined and the 3rd pad that I stopped using because of the heat. At times I was using so little pressure that the polisher felt unstable.
I do have a theory. I said in my original post that the pads were new. They are, but, I did do a test spot with them the night I got them. I cleaned them after. I had a little trouble getting them dry. They felt dry on the surface, but, could there have been some water in the middle? Would that have caused premature failure? There wasn't any fling when I ran the pads. But, I did read on one of Mike's tips that a wet pad could cause early pad failure.
I have already decided to order M105/205, LC flat pads and Menz 85rd. I will change one factor at a time to try to figure out my mistake.
I was using a good 20-25 on the first pad. That prob is too much for the more powerful Griots DA. IT is much more powerful than my old PC. I was using very little pressure on the second pad that I ruined and the 3rd pad that I stopped using because of the heat. At times I was using so little pressure that the polisher felt unstable.
I do have a theory. I said in my original post that the pads were new. They are, but, I did do a test spot with them the night I got them. I cleaned them after. I had a little trouble getting them dry. They felt dry on the surface, but, could there have been some water in the middle? Would that have caused premature failure? There wasn't any fling when I ran the pads. But, I did read on one of Mike's tips that a wet pad could cause early pad failure.
CEE DOG
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I agree with the above that pushing down with 15-25 pounds is too much but... From what I am reading Mike recommends 15-20 pounds total. So if the machine weighs 5 pounds on it's own just holding it flat to the surface easily hits 8 pounds. Now put a little pressure on that and 15 pounds isn't far off at all. Go place the machine face down on a scale without a pad on it and press down. I bet it will surprise you how quickly you hit 15 pounds.
5.4 Shelby
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I actually did that last night just to make sure. I prob surpassed it a little on the first pad. I paid real close attention to the pressure on the second and third. That was what I tought it was to begin with. So I did the scale thing. Although I did it with a pad on it. I wanted to get the feel of what it should feel like with the pad on it.
5.4 Shelby
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Actually I just took off the final wax. Gonna pull it outside and see how it looks.
RaskyR1
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How much polish are you using? It's also possible that you may be over saturating the pads too. That combined with the heavy pressure could be the cause. I've ran the pads with 20-25lbs without any issues but I also change my pads before they become to saturated.
Mike Phillips
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Can someone find a place where I posted using 25 pounds with a polisher?
LOL
If you do, please post the link...
In my entire life I don't think I've ever pushed that hard or ruined a pad from pushing too hard on a DA Polisher.
First of all, you want the pad rotating and if a person is pushing too hard the pad won't rotate so it wouldn't even make sense to push that hard.
Carving out a 2" section is too big also if you're doing correction work, I always suggest about a 20" section, which is a lot more manageable and remember, you're going to overlap a little.
:laughing:
5.4 Shelby
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Not saturated. I put on a quarter sized dollup in the middle the first time. I spread it around on the paint without power, then even it out on 3-4, then run about 6-8 passes or until it begins to clear. The next time I put the polish on in a ring around the outside edges of the pad to even out the absorbed polish. Then I alternate adding polish back and forth, middle and edge to try and even it up as much as possible. If starts to saturate I clean on the fly or change pads.
I called AG about it today. The guy had little to no insight as to what may have caused it. When I told him my theory of there being some moisture in the center of the pad, he thought that my be the cause. They had dried face down for 48 hrs in 60 degree garage. Gonna go back to my method of drying on their side so the air flows better.
I will be getting some new pads tomorrow. These are 5.5 CCS. I also ordered some 4 inch. Gonna try them fresh and see what happens. If any more failure, I will re-evaluate my process and also try flat pads. Also gonna try the M105/205 polishes to make sure I dont have to work the polish as much.
5.4 Shelby
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The parts of the truck that I worked on look very good, btw. In spite of the small amt of trouble I had, I am happy witht the result. It is gray, cloudy and miserable in Indiana. I have not seen it in sunlight, but, in the garage and in the dismal daylight, it looks very good. Major swirls are gone. Some very minor buffing marks remain. Have to use Halogen lights to see them.
Mike Phillips
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I wrote this in 2005, and it says 15 to 20 pounds...
How to use the G-100 to remove swirls - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online
Here's an excerpt...
In the 2.5 hour DVD I also mention 15 to 20 pounds but that's just for correction work and you need to keep the pad rotating.
:buffing:
How to use the G-100 to remove swirls - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online
Here's an excerpt...
You can see that in order to remove these below surface defects you need to remove the highest areas of the paint until they are level with the lowest depths of the deepest scratches. In essence, you must remove paint.
When using the G100 Dual Action Polisher to remove defects, (This is different then merely applying a polish or a wax because you're trying to remove paint), you need to use a slow arm speed, overlap you passes by 50% and apply between 15 pounds and 20 pounds of pressure onto the head of the polisher.
To get an idea of how hard this is to push down, simply place your polisher onto an everyday bathroom scale and then press down on the head of the polisher and take note of how hard you're pushing. If you like, you can even tape some heavy plastic around the scale as you can see that I did in the below picture and actually turn the polisher on and practice pushing down as you move the polisher around. Also listen to the sound of the motor to get an idea of how it sounds at the pressure you are applying. Make sure you have someone to hold the scale in place when you do this.
15 pounds of pressure on the head of the polisher
20 pounds of pressure on the head of the polisher
In the 2.5 hour DVD I also mention 15 to 20 pounds but that's just for correction work and you need to keep the pad rotating.
:buffing:
Mike Phillips
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Vindicated.
A number of times I've posted to this forum that the Griot's Garage ROP works pretty much like a rotary it has that much power except that you can still stop it which you cannot do with a rotary.
I thought you wrote you were using a PC towards the beginning of this thread?
Mike Phillips
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My mistake, I missed the first part of your sentence and focused on the second part.
With a PC 7424 it probably wouldn't take 25 pounds of pressure because that would stop the pad from rotating and hopefully you've read enough to know that the only time correction work is being done with a PC is when the pad is rotating.
With the GG ROP, because it has 850 watts of power, (compared to 450 for the XP), it does have enough power to rotate a pad under too much pressure and it will generate a lot of heat right down to the middle of the pad and destroy it as you have found out.
It's a thread like this that straightens out bad information and helps others to avoid this kind of mistake.
With a PC 7424 it probably wouldn't take 25 pounds of pressure because that would stop the pad from rotating and hopefully you've read enough to know that the only time correction work is being done with a PC is when the pad is rotating.
With the GG ROP, because it has 850 watts of power, (compared to 450 for the XP), it does have enough power to rotate a pad under too much pressure and it will generate a lot of heat right down to the middle of the pad and destroy it as you have found out.
It's a thread like this that straightens out bad information and helps others to avoid this kind of mistake.
Mike Phillips
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The heat "you're" generating by pushing too hard will transfer into the pad more effectively if the pad is wet than if it is dry because the heat can move through the moister better than it can through the air.
Also, the wet pad is going to squish down easier than a dry pad, especially a dry cutting pas as they are very stiff.
You're pushing this tool and these pads past what they are designed to do. IF you have serious paint correction to do then either,
- Carve out a smaller section
- Switch to a rotary buffer
5.4 Shelby
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Mike, thanks for contributing to this thread. I was hoping you would show up and help me figure it out. I said 25 from memory. I was wrong and found that through the searches. However if you read post #8 it was the intermediate swirl removal video that says 15-25. Sorry to blame you specifically for it. I did get it from an AG video however.
Here is the quote from it.
If you take a look at post #13, you will see that I went back and used a lot less pressure on the second pad. Nearly to the point where I was holding it up a little. At times the polisher even felt unstable as though it was not making full contact. I checked my pressure with a scale prior to pad #2. I admitted I was prob even exceeding 25 on the first pad. But I am sure I was not on the second. I said new pad in that post. It was new, but, had been cleaned after a test spot from 2 days prior. Could have been damp. Not enough to feel damp or to fling water.
Post #13:
I'm not afraid to admit if I were overpowering the machine. I likely was on the first pad. The second and third pad, however, I know I was not.
I am wondering if it has more to do with the moist pad or the mismatch of the CCS pads and the GG ROP. When I ordered the polisher the girl at Griots told me to apply no pressure at all as "it could explode the pad". Of course she was referring to GG pads. When I talked to Bobby at AG today, he also said "should not be applying any pressure at all."
Has anyone out there had any extensive experience with this polisher/pad combo? I'd like to hear their comments.
Here is the quote from it.
If you take a look at post #13, you will see that I went back and used a lot less pressure on the second pad. Nearly to the point where I was holding it up a little. At times the polisher even felt unstable as though it was not making full contact. I checked my pressure with a scale prior to pad #2. I admitted I was prob even exceeding 25 on the first pad. But I am sure I was not on the second. I said new pad in that post. It was new, but, had been cleaned after a test spot from 2 days prior. Could have been damp. Not enough to feel damp or to fling water.
Post #13:
.
I'm not afraid to admit if I were overpowering the machine. I likely was on the first pad. The second and third pad, however, I know I was not.
I am wondering if it has more to do with the moist pad or the mismatch of the CCS pads and the GG ROP. When I ordered the polisher the girl at Griots told me to apply no pressure at all as "it could explode the pad". Of course she was referring to GG pads. When I talked to Bobby at AG today, he also said "should not be applying any pressure at all."
Has anyone out there had any extensive experience with this polisher/pad combo? I'd like to hear their comments.
5.4 Shelby
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btw, I do plan to switch to a rotary. Someday. I need to figure out how to use this one first.
Of course, I will be on here asking questions about the rotary then.
Thanks again for being so helpful. I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am without people like you, CEE DOG, and Asphalt Rocket (and alll the others) helping me.
Of course, I will be on here asking questions about the rotary then.
Thanks again for being so helpful. I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am without people like you, CEE DOG, and Asphalt Rocket (and alll the others) helping me.
Mike Phillips
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I've buffed out a lot of cars in my life, mostly using a rotary buffer but also a lot of cars using a combination of the rotary buffer and the dual action polisher. Both tools have their place in your tool chest.
When it comes to using a DA Polisher like the Griot's Garage, how you use it depends upon what you're trying to accomplish.
Removing swirls and scratches requires you ENGAGE the abrasives with the paint and you do this by applying pressure. No pressure and you'll be there forever.
Removing light defects or refining the results from an aggressive correction step and you want to use less pressure.
Applying a wax or paint sealant is just a little more pressure than the weight of the machine to keep the pad flat to the surface.
Wet pads will transfer heat better than dry pads but it's still going to speed and pressure over time.
That's why it's a better idea to have a collection of pads and swap them out as you work around the car.
In this video, I go over all the correct techniques for,
The techniques are accurate and will work for anyone using any pad or chemical assuming the paint can be fixed with a DA in the first place.
How to Remove Swirls with the Porter Cable 7424XP
When it comes to using a DA Polisher like the Griot's Garage, how you use it depends upon what you're trying to accomplish.
Removing swirls and scratches requires you ENGAGE the abrasives with the paint and you do this by applying pressure. No pressure and you'll be there forever.
Removing light defects or refining the results from an aggressive correction step and you want to use less pressure.
Applying a wax or paint sealant is just a little more pressure than the weight of the machine to keep the pad flat to the surface.
Wet pads will transfer heat better than dry pads but it's still going to speed and pressure over time.
That's why it's a better idea to have a collection of pads and swap them out as you work around the car.
In this video, I go over all the correct techniques for,
- Removing swirls
- Polishing to a high gloss
- Applying a sealant by machine
The techniques are accurate and will work for anyone using any pad or chemical assuming the paint can be fixed with a DA in the first place.
How to Remove Swirls with the Porter Cable 7424XP
5.4 Shelby
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Thanks Mike,
I have read most of your articles regarding using a DA polisher. Those techniques are what I am trying to use. The truck had some deeper scratches. I have gotten most of those out. The results were really very good. On the worst areas, I used XMT #4. We talked about #4 in a different thread. You told me it would cut like nobody's business. So I am only using that in extreme circumstances.
I am going to chalk this up as my inexperience and continue to practice and experiment with different pad/polish combos. I will make sure pads are dry and pressure is light. If the problem persists, I will update and bump this thread. Prob be at least this weekend before I get back out there.
I have read most of your articles regarding using a DA polisher. Those techniques are what I am trying to use. The truck had some deeper scratches. I have gotten most of those out. The results were really very good. On the worst areas, I used XMT #4. We talked about #4 in a different thread. You told me it would cut like nobody's business. So I am only using that in extreme circumstances.
I am going to chalk this up as my inexperience and continue to practice and experiment with different pad/polish combos. I will make sure pads are dry and pressure is light. If the problem persists, I will update and bump this thread. Prob be at least this weekend before I get back out there.
5.4 Shelby
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Oh yeah, and spend more money on products and pads. Who knows, might even own a rotary before all is said and done.
Mike Phillips
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If you have used the XMT #4 would you mind sharing with everyone your experience?
Does it cut really fast?
I am going to chalk this up as my inexperience and continue to practice and experiment with different pad/polish combos. I will make sure pads are dry and pressure is light. If the problem persists, I will update and bump this thread. Prob be at least this weekend before I get back out there.[/QUOTE]
When you do get ready to jump to the rotary buffer, keep in mind the Flex 3403 Lightweight is so easy to learn how to use because it's so easy to control
I took a number of pictures while edging the El Camino and since I was by myself I had to hold it with one hand, since I wanted it to be a "real" picture in any of these shots I was really buffing with it at the time but using only one hand to hold onto it.
M105 with any pad made fast work of removing the #3000 Unigrit sanding marks out of the seasoned clear coat.