GG 6", Megs G110v2, or Flex 3401

07 z-oh-6 said:
Also, if you look on your Flex, you see a label with the highest setting @ 480. That's the RPM's, and that equates to 4800 OPM's. :xyxthumbs:
Click to expand...

I think you may be getting Revolutions and Orbits mixed up. Please correct me if I'm wrong but see below:xyxthumbs:

· Specifications ·
· Power input 900 Watts (7.5 amps)
· Power output 590 Watts
· Rotary RPM: 160-480
· Orbital OPM: 3200-9600
· Orbit (stroke length): 8mm
· Velcro back plate (included)
· Weight 5.75 lbs
Another note I found:
"Note: the machine's orbital movement has been optimally adapted for the special back pad included with it"
 
I can clearly see where you may think I'm mistaken and I might be. I will contact my source and see what he says about this. He explained it to me, but I don't remember exactly his reasoning behind stating the MAX OPM of the Flex 3401 is 4800. I'll get back to you. :xyxthumbs:

CEE DOG said:
I think you may be getting Revolutions and Orbits mixed up. Please correct me if I'm wrong but see below:xyxthumbs:

· Specifications ·
· Power input 900 Watts (7.5 amps)
· Power output 590 Watts
· Rotary RPM: 160-480
· Orbital OPM: 3200-9600
· Orbit (stroke length): 8mm
· Velcro back plate (included)
· Weight 5.75 lbs
Another note I found:
"Note: the machine's orbital movement has been optimally adapted for the special back pad included with it"
Click to expand...
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
If I were you, I'd go pick up some meguiars ultimate compound from your local auto parts store. It's derived from 105, just a little less cut, but still stronger than most polishes out there. It's also much easier to use than 105, and it's only 8 bucks! UC uses the new super micro abrasive technology that M105 uses. SwirlX would be comparable to M205 as far as finishing after M105. It also utilizes the new technology as well, and it's only 8 bucks! You can get nearly the same results with UC/SwirlX as you can with M105/M205, especially since youre using a DA.
Click to expand...
What is the difference between the UC and 105? Is there more dusting or less workability? I think my local Autozone/Carquest/O'Riley's carry the UC and SwirlX. Haven't found 105/205 locally.
 
5.4 Shelby said:
What is the difference between the UC and 105? Is there more dusting or less workability? I think my local Autozone/Carquest/O'Riley's carry the UC and SwirlX. Haven't found 105/205 locally.
Click to expand...
This is a direct quote from Michael Stoops. He works for Meguiars and is a product specialist.

Michael Stoops said:
Depending on how soft/delicate your paint is M105 and the orange LC pad may be too aggressive and leave more marring than you really want. It's always best to do a test spot or two to see what really works best for you. If you find something less aggressive gets the job done, then why hit it with the biggest hammer you can find? In all honesty you may even want to start with Ultimate Compound rather than M105. UC is derived from M105 but is a more user friendly product in many ways - it will certainly give you a longer buffing cycle with less dust than M105. We use UC in our Saturday Classes and get outstanding results time after time with it. Following it with M205 to really refine the finish is a great way to go.
Click to expand...

I will also add, UC is *much* easier to wipe off than M105. You will not find M105/M205 over the counter.
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
This is a direct quote from Michael Stoops. He works for Meguiars and is a product specialist.
Click to expand...

Michael Stoops is a great guy and a real "Car Guy", he's also the guy that took my place when I left my position at Meguiar's to move here to Autogeek.

Mike Phillips New Opportunity

Congratulation Michale Stoops!


07 z-oh-6 said:
I will also add, UC is *much* easier to wipe off than M105. You will not find M105/M205 over the counter.
Click to expand...

Mark,

If you look at the bottles, you will see different types of packaging. The "Consumer Line" is available in what are called "Hard Parts" stores or places like here at Autogeek.net where you get service with the products, like questions answered here on the forum. Kind of hard to get good answers from the guy standing behind the counter at your local auto parts store or Target.


The "Professional Line", that is the M105 and the M205 are available through PBE stores, that stands for Paint, Body & Equipment, or online like places like Autogeek.net, again, after my job as an Outside Sales Rep/Trainer, where I called on "Hard Parts" stores and "PBE" stores to "try" to train the counter people to answer questions about which product to use, it was pretty much a waste of time due to people behind the counter that just don't care or due to the turnover rate of people at stores like these.

The reason there are two different lines and two different types of distribution and marketing is because Meguiar's caters to two different markets, Consumers or Enthusiast and the Professional side of this industry.

(I think I've written about this somewhere on this forum?):buffing:

Hang on... let me snag something I wrote years ago on Hard Parts stores and PBE stores...
 
Here you go, posted in 2004 in the "How To Articles" forum on MOL

Mike Phillips said:
In the Automotive world, there are two types of auto parts stores,

* Hard Parts Stores
* PBE Stores

A Hard Parts store is a store like Pep Boys, Kragen, AutoZone, etc. These types of auto parts stores sell a large variety of auto parts including Meguiar's highly popular Consumer Line which includes, Meguiar's Deep Crystal, Meguiar's Gold Class, and Meguiar's NXT Generation.

Some Hard Parts stores sell a few products from the Professional Line, such as M-02 Fine Cut Cleaner, M-07 Show Car Glaze, M-2616 Hi-Tech Yellow Wax, M-3416 Final Inspection, and M-4016 Vinyl/Rubber Cleaner & Conditioner to name a few.

PBE store is an auto parts store that like a Hard Parts store sells traditional auto parts like spark plugs, starter motors, oil etc. but they also stock and sell Automotive Paint, and Body Shop Supplies and Equipment.

PBE stores don't tend to have large neon signs on the outside of their building because they often lean more to the Mom & Pop type of business than belong to large, nationwide chain stores.

For this reason, these stores a little harder to find. But note this, if your town or city is large enough to have a body shop or two, and also a new car dealership or two, (which probably includes a majority of towns and cities in America), then chances are very good there is at least one PBE store within an acceptable driving area from where you live and work.
Click to expand...


:props:
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
I will also add, UC is *much* easier to wipe off than M105. You will not find M105/M205 over the counter.
Click to expand...

That is true and that is why you'll often see me recommend the Consumer version of M105 for people using DA Polishers and not Rotary Buffers.

UC is not formulated or recommended for use with Rotary Buffers, in other words it's not formulated for tools that generate more heat than DA Polishers generate.


It's all about, 3 basic steps...

  1. Evaluate the surface
  2. Choose the right product (for how you're going to apply it)
  3. Use good technique
These are the basics of any detailing regime.


:)
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
I see you still find time to post on MOL, that's awesome. Considering the amount of work you put into AGO, I didn't think you would have time for other forums. :props:
Click to expand...

I post to multiple forum, you can see the list here and these are just detailing forums...

www.showcargarage.com


I have over 28,000 posts on MOL and I lost over 5000 posts when they switched to Community Server for about 8 months and then dumped that forum software and went back to the original forum on vBulletin.

Yeah... I've made a post or two in my life...

Here's a brand new article I wrote from scratch today...

How to crop out the fluff and resize your pictures! - Using FREE online software!

Anyone posting pictures to a forum should at a minimum know how to resize their photos to about 800 pixels wide as a part of good Netiquette...


:)
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
This is a direct quote from Michael Stoops. He works for Meguiars and is a product specialist.



I will also add, UC is *much* easier to wipe off than M105. You will not find M105/M205 over the counter.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the quote.

I have a PBE shop close to my work. They carry several of the Megs polishes including the 95. They dont have the 105 though. He said he can get it, but, I'd rather order from AG anyway.
 
CEE DOG said:
I think you may be getting Revolutions and Orbits mixed up. Please correct me if I'm wrong but see below:xyxthumbs:

· Specifications ·
· Power input 900 Watts (7.5 amps)
· Power output 590 Watts
· Rotary RPM: 160-480
· Orbital OPM: 3200-9600
· Orbit (stroke length): 8mm
· Velcro back plate (included)
· Weight 5.75 lbs
Click to expand...

You are correct that those are the specifications listed. However- Flex is apparently counting an "orbit" as a quarter circle motion, not a half circle motion. A few of us curious guys absolutely verified the orbit versus rotation motion of the Flex to be a 10:1 ratio, not a 20:1 ratio. From a previous post on soMe Other detaiLing forum:

Kevin Brown said:
As it stands, the Flex literature lists the speed without load at 160-480 RPM and the orbit rate without load at 3,200-9,600 RPM (this is the same thing as oscillations per minute or OPM in the case of this machine). However, my own research into the specs show that the ratio is NOT 20:1, but is in fact 10:1.

How did I research this? It was super-technical... I used all sorts of meters and electronic gizmos with accelerometers and such. :confused: Naw, just kidding- I simply spun the backing plate by hand and counted how many in and out movements the backing plate made! :poke

The total was ten oscillations for every rotation. If, in fact, the specs are off by the amount of rotations the pad makes, then the rotations spec may very well be 80-240 RPM. If that is the case, a random orbital can easily replicate a similar amount of rotations (I regularly see my machine travel an estimated 600 RPM). If the orbit rate is incorrect, then the machine will top out at 4,800 OPM (the G110 has an OPM rating of 6,700 OPM). I suspect that the RPM may be lower, not the OPM.

If you are asking, "What is your point, and how does this impact my choice between the Meguiar's G110, the Dynabrade 61379/61384, and the Flex XC 3401 VRG?"

The point is this: Regardless the unit you choose, they all generally work better and faster than hand application, so get one! But before you do, if you have the opportunity to try the Flex or G110 at least, do it.

There are a lot of dynamics going on that the user does not need to worry about. That being said, a change in oscillation size, backing plate speed, or even the rotational weight DOES make a big difference in overall performance.
Click to expand...

After this post, a group of us were able to verify the rotation of the Flex. On speed setting 1, revolutions were verified as 160 RPM (varying + or - a few RPM). On speed setting 6, revolutions were verified as 480 RPM (varying + or - a few RPM). This was accomplished using an honest to goodness electronic measurement device. We also tried to measure the rotational speed on a G110 at full speed, but we ran out of time before we could get an accurate reading. It was a bit more difficult to measure compared to the Flex.

For me, there was no doubt that the G110 was reaching a higher rate of rotation. Paired with a buffing pad that allows rapid rotation of the backing plate, I think that the G110 could spin the pad (under load) 7-10 times per second.
 
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07 z-oh-6 said:
Thanks Kevin!!!! :props: :dblthumb2:
Click to expand...

You are welcome.

I just read the entire thread. Wow. "OVERCOMPLICATED?" Not true. Tsk, tsk.

I do agree that whenever someone wants to know the theory behind a technique, or the reason something is working the way it is, the explanation can get complicated, ESPECIALLY when it is express in written form.

However, the premise that this particular method of application is "complicated", is simply false. I am able to tell a guy over the phone how to implement this method. How hard can it be?

For what it's worth... there are probably eight to ten specific reasons why priming the pad with the buffing liquid delivers a superior result versus traditional application methods.

I can assure you that in a head-to-head comparison, more work will be accomplished during a shorter period of time if pad priming is implemented. Assuming all other aspects of application techniques are equal, I doubt there will be a need to swap pads any more than would be necessary if traditional polishing methods are used.

If a paint polishing guy or gal is achieving stellar results using traditional methods of application, that's great! If their method of application seems to be similar to how I polish paint, that is fine with me also. What I am most happy about, however, is that more than a few guys who were dyed-in-the-wool ROTARY masters have come to see the benefits of using the random orbital for serious defect removal and final paint polishing.

So hey- if it took an "overcomplicated" and "hyped" KBM that has "been around for years" to get them to give the random orbital another chance to prove its merits... isn't that GREAT, too?!
 
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:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
 
Kevin Brown said:
You are correct that those are the specifications listed. However- Flex is apparently counting an "orbit" as a quarter circle motion, not a half circle motion. A few of us curious guys absolutely verified the orbit versus rotation motion of the Flex to be a 10:1 ratio, not a 20:1 ratio. From a previous post on soMe Other detaiLing forum:



After this post, a group of us were able to verify the rotation of the Flex. On speed setting 1, revolutions were verified as 160 RPM (varying + or - a few RPM). On speed setting 6, revolutions were verified as 480 RPM (varying + or - a few RPM). This was accomplished using an honest to goodness electronic measurement device. We also tried to measure the rotational speed on a G110 at full speed, but we ran out of time before we could get an accurate reading. It was a bit more difficult to measure compared to the Flex.

For me, there was no doubt that the G110 was reaching a higher rate of rotation. Paired with a buffing pad that allows rapid rotation of the backing plate, I think that the G110 could spin the pad (under load) 7-10 times per second.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your time Kevin. It doesn't all quite add up to me but that is very interesting and if what you say is true then I would call that false advertising. In any case I suppose it doesn't matter. I love the Flex and how smooth it runs and found using a certain other DA to be taxing on my happiness. All that vibration reminds me of a jackhammer :)
Anyway, thanks again for breaking it down for me.

Edit: After reading my post I don't like that it sounded like an insinuation and instead of "if what you say is true" I probably should have said "if you're method of testing is accurate and complete"
 
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