Developing New Polishes...Input from AGO

JonMiles

JonMiles

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Hi everyone,

I am working on developing a new set of polishes in an attempt to deliver a system that is body shop safe, does not dust and delivers the cut and finish comparable to the best in the industry. Right now, I am in the early stages. Basically researching different substituents to deliver ideal lubrication, working time, cutting and finishing abilities. So far, I have been detailing for 6 years and have tried a wide variety of polishes, each having their own strengths and weaknesses. Some cut well, but do not finish well. Some finish well but are difficult to remove. Some dust, some dry up, some are too mild, some sling too easy, etc. I have yet to find a perfect polish so I want to develop one that is as close to perfect as possible.

What I need is input from the Autogeek community on what they look for in an ideal polish.

What grit should it be able to remove?

How long should the working time be?

How much cut should be delivered?

How much product per section?

Basically anything that you look for in a polish, and maybe some examples of strengths and weaknesses of polishes you have used.

For instance: M105 cuts great (1500g removed from most paint) and finishes very nicely, but it dries quickly is difficult to remove if it sits and dusts.
 
Are you going to specifically try to go after body shop business? That is removing sanding marks out of fresh paint?

Or do you just want something as aggressive as a true compound for detailers trying to remove deeper swirls and scratches but you're not really going to try to get body shop business.

Two different markets, body shop vs reconditioning.

The body shop industry is tough nut to crack because it's catered to by PBE stores and they predominantly push 3M products. The thing is that PBE stores send a outside sales person to shops to to take orders and keep shops supplied. Going after the body shop industry would mean getting your products into PBE warehouses.

The reconditioning portion of the market, Pro Detailers and Enthusiast detailers are a much easier market to reach via online touch-points like this forum and online stores.

Look at Meguiar's new Microfiber DA System, it's specifically targeted at the reconditioning industry and is not recommended or formulated for fresh paint or the body shop industry.

Sometimes it's best to use a shotgun approach and sometimes it's better to use a sniper approach... just depends upon what your marketing goal is...


I'd be glad to do any comparison testing for you...


:)
 
JonMiles said:
Hi everyone,

I am working on developing a new set of polishes in an attempt to deliver a system that is body shop safe, does not dust and delivers the cut and finish comparable to the best in the industry. Right now, I am in the early stages. Basically researching different substituents to deliver ideal lubrication, working time, cutting and finishing abilities. So far, I have been detailing for 6 years and have tried a wide variety of polishes, each having their own strengths and weaknesses. Some cut well, but do not finish well. Some finish well but are difficult to remove. Some dust, some dry up, some are too mild, some sling too easy, etc. I have yet to find a perfect polish so I want to develop one that is as close to perfect as possible.

What I need is input from the Autogeek community on what they look for in an ideal polish.

What grit should it be able to remove?

How long should the working time be?

How much cut should be delivered?

How much product per section?

Basically anything that you look for in a polish, and maybe some examples of strengths and weaknesses of polishes you have used.

For instance: M105 cuts great (1500g removed from most paint) and finishes very nicely, but it dries quickly is difficult to remove if it sits and dusts.
Click to expand...

Man Oh Man...I wish I could be down there with you on this project...with the OEMs and the paint companies continuously seeking improvements in their paint systems, we need someone on the forefront to keep astride of those changes...why not that someone be you?

{Are you a Chemist? What companies are supplying the chemicals for your project? If you do succeed on this polish concept of yours, are you going to keep the ingredients 'proprietory' like everybody else does? LOL.} :)

I'm kidding, no need to answer the above questions. I sincerely wish you the best in your venture.
 
Besides great compounds and polishes what "we" really need is to have car manufactures do two things,

1. Put more paint on the car, specifically the top coat.

2. Demand paints from the paint manufactures that are polishable for both Pro Detailers, Enthusiast Detailers and the average car owner.
​

By starting at the root cause of most polishing problems Jon and other manufactures will have an easier time making product that work and anyone that's working on their car will have more material to work with over the service life of the car and and easier time doing the polishing work.

I just have to wonder if the people at car manufactures in charge of contracting with paint supplies ever consider the polishing aspect of the paint after the consumer takes possession of the vehicle. Historically it doesn't appear to be a consideration.

:)
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Are you going to specifically try to go after body shop business? That is removing sanding marks out of fresh paint?

Or do you just want something as aggressive as a true compound for detailers trying to remove deeper swirls and scratches but you're not really going to try to get body shop business.

Two different markets, body shop vs reconditioning.

The body shop industry is tough nut to crack because it's catered to by PBE stores and they predominantly push 3M products. The thing is that PBE stores send a outside sales person to shops to to take orders and keep shops supplied. Going after the body shop industry would mean getting your products into PBE warehouses.

The reconditioning portion of the market, Pro Detailers and Enthusiast detailers are a much easier market to reach via online touch-points like this forum and online stores.

Look at Meguiar's new Microfiber DA System, it's specifically targeted at the reconditioning industry and is not recommended or formulated for fresh paint or the body shop industry.

Sometimes it's best to use a shotgun approach and sometimes it's better to use a sniper approach... just depends upon what your marketing goal is...


I'd be glad to do any comparison testing for you...


:)
Click to expand...

Mike, thank you for the response. Marketing is not my real focus right now, but I would ideally like to put something out that is made for enthusiasts and detailers who want the maximum shine from their and their customers' paint. I am looking to eliminate the need to work in the shade, dust the car after compounding, and hustle to grab a rag before the compounds dry. Those are just 3 things that drive me nuts when I'm on a job. There are many things that could be improved upon that I will research and modify as I go.

To start, I'll probably be using the nuclear bomb marketing approach. I'll try to hit every niche and then begin refining to the market i find the most success in.

As I start to refine some of the polishes, I will definitely send you some samples to try and critique in order to improve future development.
 
FUNX725 said:
Man Oh Man...I wish I could be down there with you on this project...with the OEMs and the paint companies continuously seeking improvements in their paint systems, we need someone on the forefront to keep astride of those changes...why not that someone be you?

{Are you a Chemist? What companies are supplying the chemicals for your project? If you do succeed on this polish concept of yours, are you going to keep the ingredients 'proprietory' like everybody else does? LOL.} :)

I'm kidding, no need to answer the above questions. I sincerely wish you the best in your venture.
Click to expand...

Yes FunX, I am a Chemist. I will be receiving products from a variety of sources and will be keeping the ingredients proprietary except those that need to be listed on a MSDS for safety reasons.

I want to be on the front line and eventually gain recognition from some of the leaders in the car care and car paint industry. Thank you for the best wishes.
 
seeing how each car/vehicle is different...I custom mix my 3M products with some old school thrown in on the side....turns out killer with fantastic results every time...for me---a decent detail includes 5 stages--scratch removal, deep cleaning, wax, polish, and the finishing teflon....quaranteed to bring up pinheads on the surface in the rain...for the next year....
 
JonMiles said:
Yes FunX, I am a Chemist. I will be receiving products from a variety of sources and will be keeping the ingredients proprietary except those that need to be listed on a MSDS for safety reasons.

I want to be on the front line and eventually gain recognition from some of the leaders in the car care and car paint industry. Thank you for the best wishes.
Click to expand...

RE: Chemist...I just knew by the tone of your responses to others' threads/posts that you were part of the intelligentsia.

Mr. Mike Phillips had some great input on the paint's top coat thickness (or lack thereof), and the polish-ability of the new paints---I, too, wonder what they're thinking...maybe they aren't as worried about warranty issues as they once were?
 
Good luck Jon with this endevor!

And I wish you swift success!
 
Just out of curiosity, have you used any of the Menzerna or Wolfgang polishes?
 
CieraSL said:
Just out of curiosity, have you used any of the Menzerna or Wolfgang polishes?
Click to expand...

Yes and Yes.

I have used every Menzerna Polish listed on this site along with TSR and FG from Wolfgang.

john b said:
are you considering useing smat or diminishing?
Click to expand...

It all depends on what patents will allow and what works best for my formulations based on some research and testing. I am looking for some suggestions on things to look for, so micro or nano abrasives could both be in order.
 
detailbyfemale said:
for me---a decent detail includes 5 stages--scratch removal, deep cleaning, wax, polish, and the finishing teflon....quaranteed to bring up pinheads on the surface in the rain...for the next year....
Click to expand...

That seems like a strange process for detailing. Why would you polish after cleaning the paint and waxing it, that would remove any protection you had just applied? And since PTFE (Teflon) has to be heated for adhesion, why would you use it instead of an acrylic or silicone sealant? Also you mention teflon following waxing; wouldn't that inhibit sealant bonding due to the oils in wax?

If the process work for you, then use it often. However I prefer a slightly different process; compound/scratch removal, polish, paint cleaner, sealant, wax.
 
i dont know if there is already a polish out there that can change in appeareance to signal that the polish is indeed broke down with diminishing abrasives-say a blue polish that would turn white,thus leaving out any guess on are part- i know it sounds stupid but you being a chemist would know if thats possible-that could be vary marketable also-something that the operator would be able to see outside off what we already know to look for when a polish is broken down
 
john b said:
i dont know if there is already a polish out there that can change in appeareance to signal that the polish is indeed broke down with diminishing abrasives-say a blue polish that would turn white,thus leaving out any guess on are part- i know it sounds stupid but you being a chemist would know if thats possible-that could be vary marketable also-something that the operator would be able to see outside off what we already know to look for when a polish is broken down
Click to expand...

Thats a very cool idea

Btw: I wish you the best with this Jon
 
Good Luck on your project. Remember your friends at Autogeek.

It's good to have a chemist in the family.

Someday when your rich and famous, we can say that we knew him when !!!
 
This is a cool idea Jon! I wish you the best and would love to see you take the Detailing industry by storm. If you need a tester I would be happy to try it out. I have access to alot of lease turnins that I can rough up and put it through its paces.
 
Jim wrote: Why would you polish after cleaning the paint and waxing it, that would remove any protection you had just applied? And since PTFE (Teflon) has to be heated for adhesion, why would you use it instead of an acrylic or silicone sealant?

seeing how "polish" is a less dense product----and with the proper foam pad---it seems to help the carnuba "float" a tad more evenly on the surface after removal (and yes, being a prior paint prepper I tend to notice surface "warpage") ---as for the teflon---it is merely a "quick detail" spray that is light weight and finished with microfiber....

perhaps it is a matter of geographics....your down in the humidity and dampness and I am over here in the sunshine and salt....but seeing how I am up here in WA in the mold and moss----I will consider your technique app for my more "wet" climate.....peace
 
detailbyfemale said:
seeing how "polish" is a less dense product----and with the proper foam pad---it seems to help the carnuba "float" a tad more evenly on the surface after removal (and yes, being a prior paint prepper I tend to notice surface "warpage") ---as for the teflon---it is merely a "quick detail" spray that is light weight and finished with microfiber....

perhaps it is a matter of geographics....your down in the humidity and dampness and I am over here in the sunshine and salt....but seeing how I am up here in WA in the mold and moss----I will consider your technique app for my more "wet" climate.....peace
Click to expand...


Im still having a hard time following you:help:

When you say polish do you mean a product with swirl removing capabilities?

Sorry but can you break your process down a little more and maybe tell us what products you use? Im curious because it seems a little counterproductive to me but I could be reading it wrong. And I am just really curious.
Sorry for getting off topic Jon
 
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