ONR as waterless

[SATracker]

I use ONR to keep the cars looking good, but does anyone have use ONR as a "waterless car wash"? I like the stuff; it makes for a good clay lube, detailing spray, & car wash. But I was wondering if anyone used ONR much like a DP waterless product?

 

[Rsurfer]

I use ONR to keep the cars looking good, but does anyone have use ONR as a "waterless car wash"? I like the stuff; it makes for a good clay lube, detailing spray, & car wash. But I was wondering if anyone used ONR much like a DP waterless product?

Optimum makes a waterless wash "Opti-Clean"

 

[jbgrant]

I would like to hear from those that regularly use ONR and Opt. Opti Clean concentrates.

The marketing language suggests OOC is a more powerful, slicker and better protecting formula than ONR. However, the ONR concentrate is made to be used at a concentration of 1:16 or lower, and the OOC is made to use at 1:3 (leading me to think that ONR is a lot more potent concentrate and they are the same price).

Does ONR streak at higher concentrations than recommended? Does anybody use ONR at a strong concentration (like 1:4) for detailing or waterless washing?

How does OOC compare to Ultima waterless?

 

[Chris Thomas]

I would like to hear from those that regularly use ONR and Opt. Opti Clean concentrates.

The marketing language suggests OOC is a more powerful, slicker and better protecting formula than ONR. However, the ONR concentrate is made to be used at a concentration of 1:16 or lower, and the OOC is made to use at 1:3 (leading me to think that ONR is a lot more potent concentrate and they are the same price).

Does ONR streak at higher concentrations than recommended? Does anybody use ONR at a strong concentration (like 1:4) for detailing or waterless washing?

How does OOC compare to Ultima waterless?

ONR was formulated to work with certain quantities of water and Opti Clean was formulated to work with very little water. Comparing them is apples to oranges. I would limit ONR as a waterless (QD strength or a little higher) to dusting vehicles sitting on a car lot or something similar. Feel free to test ONR at 3:1 if you like, but I think it will be hard to get off and streak. I will refrain from commenting on the comparison to Ultima, because of my affiliation with Optimum.

 

[jbgrant]

ONR was formulated to work with certain quantities of water and Opti Clean was formulated to work with very little water. Comparing them is apples to oranges. I would limit ONR as a waterless (QD strength or a little higher) to dusting vehicles sitting on a car lot or something similar. Feel free to test ONR at 3:1 if you like, but I think it will be hard to get off and streak. I will refrain from commenting on the comparison to Ultima, because of my affiliation with Optimum.

Thanks for the clarification; that's basically what I was thinking. To reiterate, using enough ONR to waterless clean with as much protection/safety for your paint would probably be a messy situation. Can anybody test this?

I'm probably going to purchase some ONR soon. I will compare it to Ultima waterless and see how it works for me. Ultima waterless wash leaves a great feel and cleans well, but the finish quickly collects dirt as it doesn't repel water as strongly as I would like.

Thanks,

Joel

 

[TLMitchell]

I use ONR to keep the cars looking good, but does anyone have use ONR as a "waterless car wash"? I like the stuff; it makes for a good clay lube, detailing spray, & car wash. But I was wondering if anyone used ONR much like a DP waterless product?

I would limit ONR as a waterless (QD strength or a little higher) to dusting vehicles sitting on a car lot or something similar.

I keep a sprayer bottle of ONR at a bit stronger than QD strength for spot cleaning. My black bike is a magnet for dust and light road grime and using ONR as a waterless type product works fine for that application. It lacks the slickness of dedicated spray/wipe products and doesn't work as well on really grimey surfaces. There have been times when I didn't have time for a wash and wanted a spruce up and I've applied DGAW over ONR at higher-than-QD strength before wiping with acceptable results. YMMV.

TL

 

[Rsurfer]

Thanks for the clarification; that's basically what I was thinking. To reiterate, using enough ONR to waterless clean with as much protection/safety for your paint would probably be a messy situation. Can anybody test this?

I'm probably going to purchase some ONR soon. I will compare it to Ultima waterless and see how it works for me. Ultima waterless wash leaves a great feel and cleans well, but the finish quickly collects dirt as it doesn't repel water as strongly as I would like.

Thanks,

Joel

Why would you want to test ONR as a waterless wash when Opti Clean was made for this purpose. If Ultima doesn't repel water as you may like, maybe you need to refresh your LSP.

 

[jbgrant]

Why would you want to test ONR as a waterless wash when Opti Clean was made for this purpose.

1) It's an awesome rinseless cleaner, when used at a higher concentration if it can safely clean a previously dry and filmy finish than I can order a gallon of it and be great for a while without adding another product to my arsenal.
2) It's super concentrated stuff and even used at twice the recommended rate for the detail spray concentration it would end up costing less than half of what Opti-clean costs. If it works almost as well but leaves less of a shine, I will probably be happy with it.

wonder if AG offers samples of it for comparison..

If Ultima doesn't repel water as you may like, maybe you need to refresh your LSP.

I use ultima waterless for exactly that purpose, -to remove a light coat of road film from my paint and refresh the LSP. I've used ultima waterless on UPGP, UTTG, and several waxes; it yields the same results each time. A nice clean slick feel, but not a lot repellency.

I absolutely love the ease of UPGP, but I find it holds beads (and consequently filth) very well (just like the Ultima Waterless wash). I know there are other sealants that are more hydrophobic, but once you start using the WOWA process it's a little addictive. No more marring paint at a micro level because you didn't fully prep your car for a sealant or wax you have to buff off. For a daily driver the process is amazing; maintains protection while preventing damage from buffing. I expect I will only have to deep clean the paint once per year to remove bonded contaminants and do a light polishing because even road tar comes off the UPGP quite easily.

I'm going to try carpro reload on my next order to see how well it tops UPGP.

 

[Daniel Ellow]

I am also using waterless carwash but not ONR which polishes. cleans and protects without using water. If we think that using lots of water to wash car is inefficient, quite wasteful and insensitive to the environment than we should used eco friendly waterless car wash products.

 

[jbgrant]

I am also using waterless carwash but not ONR which polishes. cleans and protects without using water. If we think that using lots of water to wash car is inefficient, quite wasteful and insensitive to the environment than we should used eco friendly waterless car wash products.

Technically ONR and other rinseless/waterless washes don't "polish" because they're designed to prevent any sort of abrasive action, but they can leave a shiny protective film on cleaned surfaces which was what I think you are saying.

In many parts of the world water is extremely scarce and needs to be conserved. In all parts of the world watersheds need to be protected from non-point and point pollution, which means all wash water should be treated biologically or through a sanitation system, never a storm drain. Here in southern Indiana we literally have massive springs of fresh water just pushing through the surface (fish farms!) so water is very cheap, it's keeping it clean that gets costly (coal energy emissions, mercury, industrial PCB runoff, etc). Low/no water washing can certainly help protect our water resources, but it's good to remember that solutions need to be place-specific and there is no "best way" for everyone.

 

[CEE DOG]

I think this will be helpful... This is my Q&A with Dr. G on the Optimum Opti-Clean Review.

See post #29 Question and Answers #1 & #4.

Here: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews/28895-review-optimum-opti-clean-3.html

 

[jbgrant]

I think this will be helpful... This is my Q&A with Dr. G on the Optimum Opti-Clean Review.

See post #29 Question and Answers #1 & #4.

Here: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews/28895-review-optimum-opti-clean-3.html

Going to put that here cause that is a great help, Thank you.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Below is a response from Dr. David Ghodoussi of Optimum. He gave some very thorough responses which I really appreciated. Black print shows my questions and blue print shows Dr. G's answers.

Hi Corey,
Thank you for joining the Optimum forum and for using the Optimum Car Care products. I do remember our conversation about No Rinse at Detailfest and I appreciate that you decided to try it out since then. I appreciate also your thorough review of Opti-Clean and I will try to do the same in answering your questions below.

1. - For what reason would someone not just use ONR in the place of OOC for the purpose of cleaning paint. What I mean is: When a car is at the stage where OOC would be a good solution for cleaning, why not use ONR in a spray bottle and MF towels to achieve the same result?

No Rinse used as a quick detailer works fine for a car with light dust while Opti-Clean can be used on a car with several days of build up. The reason is that Opti-Clean contains the same polymers in No Rinse that encapsulate dirt but at a much higher concentration than No Rinse QD as well as other polymers not used in No rinse that offer more lubricity and gloss.

2A.- Will Opti Clean have any negative affects on looks, durability, or protection if a sealant or wax is applied directly after using it? Context: Someone has washed their car at night and decided to come back to it in the morning to seal. Because of the condensation on their vehicle they decide to wipe it down with Opti Clean before sealing.
2B.- Same question for ONR
2C.- Same question for OID

Based on the chemistry of these products (Opti-Clean, No rinse, Instant Detailer), there should be no bonding issues or affects on the longevity of waxes or sealants when you use these products before or after application of waxes or sealants. The protective film these products leave behind is dissolved and removed by the chemical solvents and abrasives used in waxes or sealants. None of these products contain detergents or solvents to remove waxes or sealants and therefore they only add protection not remove them.

3A. - What are the finer points of reasoning on the ONR directions stating to use a MF towel rather then a wash mitt or other media? I prefer using an MF towel but would like to know the reasoning behind that being specifically stated.

The reason we recommend Microfiber towels is that there are anywhere from 50,000 pores per square inch for an average microfiber to 200,000 pores per square inch for a very plush Microfiber towel. These pores are active sites to trap dirt and remove it from the surface. Therefore you get a much greater cleaning and protecting effect from a microfiber towel than a wool mitt, etc. The towels we offer are on the upper end of the range I mentioned. The only draw back when using a Microfiber towel as the wash media is that it is hard to remove the dirt that is trapped by No Rinse from the towel unless you use a strong detergent like Power Clean.
Another great wash media is a soft sponge (minimum 80 PPI) that works great for washing with No Rinse. The advantages of sponge over Microfiber is that dirt particles can get adsorbed into the sponge and away from the surface. We are working with a foam manufacturer to develop a mitt that not only is safe and gentle for the automotive paint but also has good cleaning and dirt release properties. Once we complete all the testing and development, we will make this new foam mitt available to help make the wash process with Optimum No Rinse easier.

4. - What is the main difference in OOC and ONR? What I mean is: Is their something interesting you can point to that wouldn't require us to be chemists to understand? Such as: Do they have a much different PH? Does one contain much more protective polymers then the other? Which has a stronger cleaning ability if used in the same way?

While both of these products are pH neutral, Opti-Clean contains much higher levels of polymers than No Rinse as well as some new polymers that we developed for this type of application. The added polymers are necessary to compensate for using a fraction of the water as compared to a regular No Rinse wash.

5.- Do the polymers in OOC have any level of UV protection in them?

You do get some level of UV protection from the reflection effects as well as some sacrificial UV protection (the polymers breaking down rather than the paint). But for UV protection, you need specific compounds designed to block UV light. The main product we offer for exterior application that provides the most UV protection is Optimum Car Wax which contains these specific chemicals to block UV light.

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Thanks again.
Best Regards,
David,

Last edited by CEE DOG; 09-20-2010 at 06:32 PM.

 

[jbgrant]

Just ordered a gallon of ONR after much contemplation (and the sale!).

I think ONR is going to save me a ton of time and money. I plan to use it in conjunction with my other car wash(s) (mixing) to reduce drying time during normal rinse washes and hopefully make my leaf blower more effective. I will also try it how it's intended (will be my first rinseless wash process) and see how that goes.

I will compare it 1 on 1 to the ultima waterless wash plus for those that are interested in how it stands up as super-cheap waterless wash concentrate. Ultima WWP makes 5.5 gallons (40:1) of waterless wash for $19-21 (AG is currently more $ than Premium Finish Care Direct). I use it a little heavier and get about 4 gallons. If ONR works similarly in terms of cleaning and protection at 20:1, then the cost would be about 2$/gallon or half the price of the ultima over time. Of course, if it doesn't work as well I will have plenty of other uses for it.

 

[jbgrant]

I compared the performance of Optima No Rinse and Ultima Waterless Wash Plus as waterless wash formulas today on my dirty but recently waxed car. I will be much more thorough later after I have more experience with ONR.
-I mixed UWW+ at the recommended ~40:1 ratio, and ONR at the recommended (detail strength) ~20:1.
-Used identical sprayers and distilled water to deliver product to the panel as I normally would for a waterless wash
-Used separate but identical MF towels to remove the solution/dirt

Here are my observations:
- At these concentrations, cleaning power (as far as lightly adhered dirt goes) seems very similar, I could not distinguish one from the other.
- Lubrication (as determined by the feel of the MF on the paint and by my fingers) is substantially greater in the UWW+ than the ONR at these ratios.
- When sprayed on a panel in a stream (as opposed to a mist), the ONR has less adherence to the paint and runs-off more easily compared to the UWW+. The UWW+ exhibits very similar "paint phobia," but not to the extent of the ONR.
- I could not subjectively tell a difference in the shine produced by these products, neither seemed to damage the LSP appearance or create additional enhancement (car is sealed with UPGP+ and waxed with AutoGlym HD).

Thoughts:
- I would expect a waterless wash to have higher lubricity than a rinseless as Optimum suggests, and clearly it does given the ONR was mixed at twice the strength as UWW+
- ONR is probably a better product to produce a self-rinsing wash mixture for a rinseless method than UWW+ because it exhibits better sheeting (paint phobia). Perhaps the additional lubricant in UWW+ have a negative effect on sheeting. However, the UWW+ might deliver better protection from marring due to its greater lubricity at the expense of requiring more "clean-up" drying.
- If I had Optimum Opti Clean, I would love to compare it to the UWW+. However, I am unlikely to give it a try because it costs far more than the Ultima WW+ because it appears much less concentrated according to the directions.
- I really wish Premium Finish Care would offer the UWW+ in a 32 or 64 ounce size that was more adequate for professionals who use rinseless/waterless methods.
- These products function very similarly and I would not be surprised if many of the other brands have very similar formulations. As these products use increases over the next decade the market will become more competitive and we should see more innovations and lower prices (I hope).