Super Frustrated. LSPs constributing to water etching damage on daily driver

[BobbyG]

It sounds as if there's a few things going on here. I'm almost thinking that the protection you applied didn't bond properly and didn't last.

Klasse High Gloss Sealant Glaze works very well and provides protection for at least 6 months in a normal environment.

Pinnacle makes some nice waxes. They buff to a brilliant shine but the one attribute they seem to lack is longevity.

Collinite 845 is a very nice wax and one of my favorites. I suspect this will stand up under normal circumstances but my concern is what pollutants are in the air ending up on your car.

Ultima Paint Guard Plus is another superb product that provides a tough barrier against the elements.

• How long has it been since the car was painted?
• Klasse recommends a 12 hour cure time between coats for proper cure and bonding. Acrylic sealants require curing in a dry environment for the time period without moisture contact; ie dew, condensation etc.
• Was the surface free of polishing oils prior to the sealant application?
• Do adjacent vehicles exhibit the same spotting?
• Are there factories in the area contributing to this?

 

[scooter_mac]

Update:
My friend brought my PC back and I went to work with Megs ultimate polish. It took 5-6 passes at speed 5 with a soft(er) orange pad to eliminate the damage. I finished with 3 additional passes with very light pressure. I then applied 2 coat klasses SG as before, but followed with collinite 845 instead of the pinnacle. I really hope it doesn't happen again. I think I need to blow-dry my car every morning it's wet! My neighbors will get a kick out of it (aside form the noise).

My vehicle just started doing this after a recent waxing. I used Meg Ultimate Compound followed by Ultimate Polish then Ultimate Wax. This is the first time I have noticed it. My initial thought was that it may be the magnifying glass effect the water drops have from the sun. This vehicle just sits in the yard all day during the week. My previous truck got something like this but worse from planes spraying Malithion in the area and me not being able to wash off immediately.
I may consider getting a truck cover unless someone has a solution. Glad you were able to eliminate the damage.

 

[mg6045]

I do know what your talking about. I used a sealant and them pulled my car into the garage a couple days later when rain started. but the car was already wet.

The water spots stayed in there place for literally 3 days or more. BUT, i did not get any etching from it. luckily the light stains washed away and the sealant protected the paint. either that, or the rain water was very pure with very minimal minerals in it to do damage.

This usually only happens the week I apply the LSP.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

When I look very closely at the spots on the hood (not visible from pics), the edges of the water spots are obviously raised/sunken/deformed.

They're imprints, usually below the surface... a milder form of Type II water spots

From this article,

3 - Types of Water Spots - Type I, Type II and Type III

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Just from experience while working at Meguiar's; while we can all talk about the benefits of products that don't create surface tension and thus don't bead water, the problem is the masses look for water beading as a sign of longevity and protection, no water beading means no protection and a sign the product didn't last. The results are loss of sales.

Perhaps a tipping point can be reached if enough information is shared among car enthusiasts and detailers via discussion forums and thread like this one but that's going to require a lot of education to the masses...

 

[FUNX650]

Just from experience while working at Meguiar's; while we can all talk about the benefits of products that don't create surface tension and thus don't bead water, the problem is the masses look for water beading as a sign of longevity and protection, no water beading means no protection and a sign the product didn't last. The results are loss of sales.

Perhaps a tipping point can be reached if enough information is shared among car enthusiasts and detailers via discussion forums and thread like this one but that's going to require a lot of education to the masses...

:goodpost:

:iagree: Full heartedly.

And if I may add....Thank you, Mr. Phillips!!!

Bob

 

[jbgrant]

:goodpost:

:iagree: Full heartedly.

And if I may add....Thank you, Mr. Phillips!!!

Bob

:iagree:I have to second that. I want extreme hydrophobicity and the lowest surface tension possible in an LSP formulation. For a daily driver, this seems like a no-brainer. Add some real UV protection and make the product at least reasonably durable and I will be even happier.

Thank you for the great comments. Beading water + sun exposure = likely paint damage, but nearly all LSPs seem to be formulated to attract water droplets to some degree. It is my opinion that this can happen even with neutral water, it does not necessarily require acid rain or dissolved alkaline salts; just uneven heating of the surface of the paint.

 

[jbgrant]

1 week, 1 rain later... Etching AGAIN

Well, it's happened again: almost identical type 2 water etching over the entire car, but mostly the hood. I've lived in Bloomington for 3 years and this never used to happen! I believe this is the result of calcium / magnesium carbonates from dust fallout reacting with soft rain water. From there, I don't know what's going on but I would guess the solution formed would be very alkaline (perhaps pH 10-12) and the surplus of electrons is fueling a reaction with mineral compounds in the water droplet that is reacting with the paint and causing damage within a few hours (even in the shade).

While I was sitting at a stop light earlier this week I got dusted by a concrete saw (utility work) downtown. The dust didn’t attach and I forgot about it by the end of the day (car still “looked” very clean). (Recall I live on a paved street with lots of gravel drives, so they contribute lime dust to my cars too.) The following night we had a light rain. The next morning I observed that my car was the only car in the neighborhood still completely soaked (large beads). I drove to work on the bypass (50 mph instead of 30) and parked in the garage I have access to instead of in the sun nearer my building. Some small droplets remained on the car, but not enough to concern me. Well, I didn’t notice it then but I wasn’t looking for it as I didn’t think it was possible to have already happened… The weekend rolled around and it was time to wash the car and before I could begin I realized I was staring at WATER SPOTS AGAIN. Once again, these are etchings and they are all over the place.



The protection was 1 week old: 2x Klasse HGSG + 1x colinite 845 + 1x Pinnacle sov spray wax on half of the hood (made zero difference on the water spotting).



I don’t think I’m going to bother polishing my car again until I own opti-coat. If opti-coat can hold up to bleach, than it should be able to take on limestone fallout. I'm getting very tired of this. Need a bigger garage.

 

[Flash Gordon]

Re: 1 week, 1 rain later... Etching AGAIN

Well, it's happened again: almost identical type 2 water etching over the entire car, but mostly the hood. I've lived in Bloomington for 3 years and this never used to happen! I believe this is the result of calcium / magnesium carbonates from dust fallout reacting with soft rain water. From there, I don't know what's going on but I would guess the solution formed would be very alkaline (perhaps pH 10-12) and the surplus of electrons is fueling a reaction with mineral compounds in the water droplet that is reacting with the paint and causing damage within a few hours (even in the shade).

While I was sitting at a stop light earlier this week I got dusted by a concrete saw (utility work) downtown. The dust didn’t attach and I forgot about it by the end of the day (car still “looked” very clean). (Recall I live on a paved street with lots of gravel drives, so they contribute lime dust to my cars too.) The following night we had a light rain. The next morning I observed that my car was the only car in the neighborhood still completely soaked (large beads). I drove to work on the bypass (50 mph instead of 30) and parked in the garage I have access to instead of in the sun nearer my building. Some small droplets remained on the car, but not enough to concern me. Well, I didn’t notice it then but I wasn’t looking for it as I didn’t think it was possible to have already happened… The weekend rolled around and it was time to wash the car and before I could begin I realized I was staring at WATER SPOTS AGAIN. Once again, these are etchings and they are all over the place.



The protection was 1 week old: 2x Klasse HGSG + 1x colinite 845 + 1x Pinnacle sov spray wax on half of the hood (made zero difference on the water spotting).



I don’t think I’m going to bother polishing my car again until I own opti-coat. If opti-coat can hold up to bleach, than it should be able to take on limestone fallout. I'm getting very tired of this. Need a bigger garage.

Are you sure your car isn't getting hit by a sprinkler system? Never heard of this kinda craziness otherwise

Sorry to hear of this very unfortunate turn of events

 

[jbgrant]

Re: 1 week, 1 rain later... Etching AGAIN

Are you sure your car isn't getting hit by a sprinkler system? Never heard of this kinda craziness otherwise

Sorry to hear of this very unfortunate turn of events

No sprinkler, just a fair amount of dust + indiana rain (not known for higher than usual acidity).


Ordered Opti-coat 2.0 after many recommendations from users in my region and everything I have read. It's going on as soon as I have time to bathe/clay/polish/seal. I'm looking forward to not having to polish my daily driver for a long time to come.... hopefully. If the opti-coat actually does protect from UV for a while, that would be great for my paint too as it's 15 years old. If the opti-coat gets etched...I'm going to give up. It's going to be really hard for me to resist top coating the opti-coat and altering its sheeting properties.

 

[jbgrant]

Opti-Coat COMPLETED!

3rd polishing in two months...... Hopefully the last for ~2 years+

I love this stuff. First time user and had very little trouble (lots of practice applying Ultima polymer products). It was a little harder to screw up than I thought it would be (I didn't have to redo any sections) so my application experience was quite positive. Once you get the feel of the pad drag and learn to distinguish too much from too little product on the applicator it goes pretty well. I actually started on the glass so that I could see how even my application was, as opposed to the paint where it is nearly impossible to tell if you missed any spots. This is the best approach for Ultima PGP, and it seemed to work very well for me with Opti-coat. Once confident with the side glass, I moved to the rear window, then windshield... trunk deck, roof, hood, sides, small areas (mirrors, inside fuel door, etc.). I did not cover the trim or the wheels; save that for Ultima TTG which works extremely well for me. It took only 5.5ml to complete, which is simply incredible. Wow does this stuff really cover the territory. The only trim I did was the door handles, which it coated both in just about 3 drops each!

Initial impressions:
The good-
a) Curing appears fast; looks unbelievably good in just about 20 minutes (80f, 70% humidity)
b) No paint darkening like other sealants (KlasseHGSG, Wolfgang 3.0, etc)
c) Looks a lot like UPGP, which it to say VERY BRIGHT and VERY CANDIED.. Only better. I would suggest that 3 coats of UPGP looks about this intense in terms of reflections and gloss
4) Gloss/reflections are as good as anything I have ever used
5) Made a couple deep water etching deposits I decided not to compound out much less apparent (I think by "wetting" the chemically bonded mineral salts)
6) There is a great satisfaction in knowing I won't need to do nearly as much to maintain a polished finish that's 15 years old and stays out of the garage...


The bad?-
1) Slickness. Slickness is about halfway between bare paint and a typical polymer sealant. Definitely not an oily film in the slightest. Nowhere close to a velvety wax.
2) I had very, I mean very minor issues with streaking and only on glass where I was not careful enough and didn't spot a high area in time.
3) Very little (if any) hiding of remaining swirls / heavy damage
4) There is almost no darkening of the finish after it flashes and even less after cure, so application is a challenge as you can't "work between the lines". I actually really like a darkened, deepened finish on this particular vehicle as it actually changes the color. This finish does not really exhibit any effect, but perhaps a future topper might.

Notes:
- I won't be top coating this for at least 1-2 months (well, that's my goal) to get a feel for how it responds to precip and fallout (etc.).
- Applications actually goes pretty fast because it must.... Slow and stumbly for a while, very fast when confidence is up. You only have 1-2 minutes to level a section and blend it into the adjacent section. Working slowly is very detrimental to the finish quality. Takes complete focus.
- I don't recommend working a section over 2 square feet in area. I found this size area took approximately 8 drops of product from the syringe needle.
- Not sure I could be more satisfied with the initial outcome.

 

[jbgrant]

[/IMG]

 

[LegacyGT]

Looks great, I just washed my first OC'd car, and it was a dream. 500 miles of bugs at 81mph slid off with a brief soak, and the car looks great.

 

[FUNX650]

Looks great, I just washed my first OC'd car, and it was a dream. 500 miles of bugs at 81mph slid off with a brief soak, and the car looks great.

You seem to be having great success with OC!! Good for you.

[Also: You seemed to also have had great success while "flying low" during your recent trek, or do you just considered that a sojourn?] J/K

Bob

 

[LegacyGT]

You seem to be having great success with OC!! Good for you.

[Also: You seemed to also have had great success while "flying low" during your recent trek, or do you just considered that a sojourn?] J/K

Bob

I like sojourn the best! It was not from lack of effort on the local road revenue collections department, I had at least a dozen encounters, but the early warning systems were properly efficient.

 

[FUNX650]

I like sojourn the best! It was not from lack of effort on the local road revenue collections department, I had at least a dozen encounters, but the early warning systems were properly efficient.

HMMMM...Wonder if the glint from an OC'd vehicle inhibits true readings from those revenuer's radar beams? What a selling point that would be for the good Dr. G's products!:wow:

Bob

 

[LegacyGT]

HMMMM...Wonder if the glint from an OC'd vehicle inhibits true readings from those revenuer's radar beams? What a selling point that would be for the good Dr. G's products!:wow:

Bob

Or maybe it increases detection range for the electronic counter measures by reflecting the slight bits of microwave into the detector Either one would be a fun story!

That and I was driving the incognito Prius this weekend; getting 45mpg @81mph average - it just doesn't make sense to road trip the subie since it was all interstate. I still take the subie if there is 2 lane highway where I need the passing power.

 

[jbgrant]

Or maybe it increases detection range for the electronic counter measures by reflecting the slight bits of microwave into the detector Either one would be a fun story!

That and I was driving the incognito Prius this weekend; getting 45mpg @81mph average - it just doesn't make sense to road trip the subie since it was all interstate. I still take the subie if there is 2 lane highway where I need the passing power.

Funny, I'm about to head to Canada for the weekend and trying to decide between the car pictured and a 2nd gen prius. Obviously, I will save some gas in the prius, but boy is it a bore in the countryside. My 2nd gen (2005) definitely does not get 45mpg at 81. No way. It will get 45 around 70-73 average and that's with LRR tires. Do you have a current third gen? EPA published speed vs mpg curves for several select car models, prius (2nd gen) scored the worst in terms of reduced efficiency with increasing speed above 60 of all cars compared. It has a wide sweet spot, but doesn't extend much past 70 for mine.

On the other hand, my bmw is more linear with 37 mpg at 55, 34@65, 32@70, 30@75, 28@80, 25@90, and 20-21@100. I wonder what my prius gets at an avg of 100?

 

[jbgrant]

Two week update:

1500 more miles on the BMW (short trip to Canada). It has rained and the sun has come out baking the water off the hood just as it has in the past. Mineral deposits were left behind, damage was not.

Is this statistically relevant? No. But, it has me feeling a lot better. The Opticoat sheets very well, but still increases the tendency for the flat surfaces to hold water longer as the water is still motivated to gather into macro droplets where it doesn't run off by gravity. Either conditions were not right for the etching (it rained hard and would have washed off alkaline dusts/fallout), or the Opticoat is actually going to protect the paint. Time will tell.

The hydrophobicity of the windows and especially the windshield is fantastic. My wipers literally work better and I run them much slower.

Cleaning the car is a breeze. I did a 15 minute pre-soak with pressure washer-applied pH neutral soap (foams lightly) after the 4 day trip. About every family of flying insect was on my car from Kentucky to Ontario and back. About %90-95 of the dried bug juices and parts were gone after a pressure wash. Road tar was removed incredibly easily by MF and weak APC (was not dried on). I did not even do a bucket wash yet... just a very gentle ONR wipedown to remove the very thin scum/dirt film remaining. The car cleans up as easily as if a good quality polymer sealant had just been applied and cured before a road trip. I did find some dried sap spots a week later, these were easily removed just by soaking a few minutes with waterless wash and gently buffed with MF.

Thus far, I have not put anything over the OC. I did notice that a little bit of Ultima WWP I used on the hood had a significant darkening effect on the paint. The UWWP leaves a polymer film behind. This suggests to me that a darkening poly sealant like Wolfgang 3.0 will layer over the OC and still darken the paint the way it does on hellrot red normally.

Very satisfied so far. Amazing what <6ml of a coating can do.