Clearcoat Fracturing versus Clearcoat Failure

[Hoytman]

The part about the insurance covering it, or not, might be something you'd be better served by asking your insurance agent. There could be a couple of draw backs...

1) Your paint man could pocket $1000 AND get paid by the insurance. That's a loss on your part, and I'd want to know. You'll likely get some good advice hear as to what is legit and what isn't.

2)Speaking to an insurance agent could botch getting the car painted at all, or worse, cost you more than the $1000 to get it painted. Sort of a catch 22 if you know what I mean.

Whether they have to strip the paint to the metal, or not, is a question I'll leave for Mr. Phillips. I wouldn't think they'd have to take it that for, but you never know what reasons a painter might have for doing such.

 

[STI4Life06]

The part about the insurance covering it, or not, might be something you'd be better served by asking your insurance agent. There could be a couple of draw backs...

1) Your paint man could pocket $1000 AND get paid by the insurance. That's a loss on your part, and I'd want to know. You'll likely get some good advice hear as to what is legit and what isn't.

2)Speaking to an insurance agent could botch getting the car painted at all, or worse, cost you more than the $1000 to get it painted. Sort of a catch 22 if you know what I mean.

Whether they have to strip the paint to the metal, or not, is a question I'll leave for Mr. Phillips. I wouldn't think they'd have to take it that for, but you never know what reasons a painter might have for doing such.

Yeah, the painter said he would do the job without stripping it but he would not warranty the work. If I have the car stripped he will offer me lifetime warranty.

He was referred to me from a friend but he sounds a little shady. I would really like to know if he is being legitimate or not.

 

[Hoytman]

So the question remains if he's really reputable, or not, and who says he's reputable? You need to see some of this painters work, and *you* need to be satisfied with what you see.

Obviously, a Better Business Bureau rating/membership can say a lot about a prospective service provider. So, you can always check with the BBB to see if they're a member.

I suppose that my advice would be to proceed with caution and ask plenty of questions as you go.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike,

I have a Subaru Leagcy that had been repainted some time ago by a previous owner and it now has "crows feet", looks exactly like what Marc posted above.

Recently, someone had keyed my entire car and now I am trying to get a repaint under my insurance. I went to a reputable body shop today and they told me it will cost me out of pocket $1k to have them repaint it since he would have to chemically strip the paint all the way down to bare metal because of the crows feet and the insurance will not cover it.

My question: is that really true?

Will they need to strip the paint entirely?

The reason he wants to strip the paint down to bare metal in order to offer a warranty is so that he knows 100% for sure there are no previous paint issues that will cause problems down the road.

He's smart. He knows the only way to warranty his work is to make sure it's done right the second time. (First repaint being what the previous owner had done).

Yeah, the painter said he would do the job without stripping it but he would not warranty the work. If I have the car stripped he will offer me lifetime warranty.

He was referred to me from a friend but he sounds a little shady. I would really like to know if he is being legitimate or not.

Sounds to me like he knows what he's doing. Just a guess on my part, but he's probably been down this road in the past and it's bitten him in the rear.

He's learned from a past mistake. Don't warranty other people's work. By this I mean, if he doesn't strip down to bare metal, this means the other guys work will be under his work, so in essence, if he were to offer a warranty on his work, it would also be offering another warranty on the other guy's work.

Again, sounds to me like he knows what he's doing.

The biggest problem I see with body shops isn't so much the prep and paint, it's the sanding and polishing afterwards. This is where you get holograms because most body shops either don't know how to finish out swirl free or figure if they're not getting paid for the extra time, labor and materials to finish out swirl free they're not going to do it.

Plus keep in mind, the majority of people on earth, this would include "body shop customers" don't know the difference between a squirrel and a swirl. So body shops don't normally have people coming back and complaining about holograms. Only when the customer belongs to a forum like this do they have to step up their game.

The difference between a swirl and squirrel

 

[STI4Life06]

Thanks Mike! I appreciate your opinion!

 

[Matt Jones]

Question about clear coat cracking. On my Mom's 2002 Explorer, there is clear coat cracking on the hood. My question is, would there be a problem if I used a machine polisher on the hood? I am trying to get as much machine practice as possible, but I dont want to do one of her cars if I cant do the whole thing. Im not worried about it not correcting the cracking, I just dont want to cause damage.

Here is a picture:

 

[Pinpoint_Precision]

Hi Mike,

How about this?

*** Image taken from: Cracks in paint(crows feet)? - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum

It seems like they are calling it crows feet. Now would you consider that clear coat fracture or clear coat failure?

Thanks.

I've dealt with something very similar to that on a 2010 Acura TL, black color. It was all over the car. This is not the first time I have seen this on Acura TLs raging from 2008 to 2011. I advised the owner to take to the dealership. It was a clear coat problem. They gave him a brand new car. Great topic Mike!

 

[Anthony@zerboautoworks]

My DD is getting bad, Pretty sad because this blue is so nice of a color.

Clearcoat failure
View attachment 16938

And I'm not sure why this is doing it looks like poor quality or macco now its flaking off.
View attachment 16939

Anybody know why this happens?

 

[Matt Jones]

Anyone?

Question about clear coat cracking. On my Mom's 2002 Explorer, there is clear coat cracking on the hood. My question is, would there be a problem if I used a machine polisher on the hood? I am trying to get as much machine practice as possible, but I dont want to do one of her cars if I cant do the whole thing. Im not worried about it not correcting the cracking, I just dont want to cause damage.

Here is a picture:

 

[tuscarora dave]

Hi all...

I wanted to share something I came across in my shop recently and unfortunately I didn't have the insight to get a before photo of the condition of the hood on this Subaru before jumping right into the sanding of it.

I can however tell you that it initially looked like a combination of clearcoat fracturing and all out clear coat failure. The hood appeared to have clearcoat fracturing in patterns of what can look like sanding marks from side to side all around the hood scoop from the front of the hood all the way to the windshield. The sides of the hood were much less effected by these marks.

All of the effected area also had a whitish haze to it. I explained to the customer what it appeared to be, and showed her another example of what clearcoat fracturing looks like (the trunk lid of my Buick) and she indeed concurred that it looked like the same issue with an added fogginess to it.

I told her of the grim prognosis that fracturing is typically as deep as if not exceedingly deeper than the layer of clear coat and that a repair attempt would only result in a much more glossy rendition of clear coat fracturing, to which attempt she was satisfied.

The hood was very rough and oxidized with all of this assumed clear coat fracturing all over the center 2/3 of the hood so I commenced to wet sanding the hood as a last ditch effort to make the best improvement that could be made.


Here are a few photos....

Rough and quickly machine sanded with 3M, 3 inch 1500 grit discs and no interface pad used.



This photo is after 2 thorough passes using 3M, 3 inch 3000 grit Trizact discs with the foam built in to the disc.



I decided to go with a Cyclo yellow heavy cut foam pad on my Makita rotary to remove the sanding marks. here's a photo of the hood with 3/4 of the sanding marks roughly removed for a little contrast.



This step was followed by a DA compounding using M-105 and an LC UltraFiber disc on speed 6 on my HF DA. This combo can be used to finish down wax ready on most clearcoat finishes.

Here's the end result after the DA compounding step followed by a description of what I figured out during the coarse of this job.



As with lots of things one can come across in detailing and paint correction, there can be misleading evidence of certain conditions. In this particular case it seems that this hood had been replaced and repainted at one time, because what looked like clearcoat fracturing, covered with a healthy dose of foggy looking oxidation, actually was indeed sanding marks from a substandard attempt at a sand and cut of orange peel from (what I can assume by the customer testimony in the end) the Subaru dealer's shoddy body shop workmanship.

It seems the body shop replaced and painted the hood following a crash the customer had 6 months after purchasing the car brand new (about 10 years ago) and then sanded down the orange peel or some other paint defects in the center 2/3 of the hood.

From what I deducted along the way in working on this hood, the dealership body shop then used their famous "smoke and mirrors" fillers to do a halfhearted attempt at removing the sanding marks and instead of removing them completely, just filled them.

Fast forward 10 years and this unfortunate situation finds it's way into my shop and gets repaired correctly. Once again, a true detailer repairing the shoddy work of the giant dealerships.

Thanks for looking. I thought this should be included as a reference in this thread as a situation like this can look exactly like clearcoat fracturing. TD

 

[erichaley]

Regarding the crows feet, and I suppose the fracturing as well, would a coating like Opti-Coat help prevent it from getting any worse? Maybe buy them some time? I know it certainly isn't going to get any better...

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Question about clear coat cracking. On my Mom's 2002 Explorer, there is clear coat cracking on the hood.

My question is,

would there be a problem if I used a machine polisher on the hood?

Here is a picture:

Anyone?

Sorry your question was missed Matt.... we aim to please but once in a while we miss a post here and there...


Here's the answer to your question...

It's safe to polish a panel with paint cracking. The downside is all the cracks will fill up with compound and/or polish residue and because most compounds and polishes are white in color the residue will make the cracks stand out like a sore thumb.

One option would be to use a gray colored polish and then use a black wax.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Regarding the crows feet, and I suppose the fracturing as well, would a coating like Opti-Coat help prevent it from getting any worse? Maybe buy them some time? I know it certainly isn't going to get any better...

This is just my opinion....

If the "paint system" on a car is suffering from paint cracking, the cracking is going to run its course until all the cracking that's going to take place does take place.

Just a guess on my part but the cracking could be the result of expansion and contraction with a paint system that is brittle instead of flexible.

Jason Rose explains paint this way,

Paint is a semi-permeable elastic membrane.

Swelling, stretching, and shrinking happens a lot more than people think.

Cracking could be a sign of paint that is simply coming apart instead of stretching.


If an entire panel is affected by this issue then applying something on top of it will not stop what's happening inside of it.


Just a guess on my part. One thing for sure, if a person is not going to have a panel showing paint cracking re-painted then the next best thing would be to keep the paint polished and sealed with something, either a wax, synthetic paint sealant or coating.


Sometimes something is better than nothing...

 

[stilltipping3]

First the answer to your above question and that is,

"no"


Once the paint has cracks like seen in the above pictures the paint is now past the point of no return. Applying any type of oily glaze or non-abrasive polish won't do anything to undo the damage or even stop any future cracking....

What I was told by a good friend in this industry as it relates to modern clear coat paints and non-abrasive, pure polishes or body shop safe glazes is that when a clear coat finish is "brand new" either a factory finish or a repaint, and it has not been sanded or cut with an abrasive compound or polish, that at this point in time the clear layer of paint is its hardest, densest and most impermeable.

With time, wear-n-tear and exposure to the elements, the clear layer becomes more open via swirls, scratches, oxidation and interstices which are microscopic cracks or fissures.

The point being that the physical condition or characteristics of new paints change with time.

Someone once asked me if there were any benefits to applying a non-abrasive, pure polish or bodyshop safe glaze to a brand new clear coat and the answer is for the most part "no" except to create a glossy appearance.

But the part most people miss is this...

A brand new paint job shouldn't need anything to make it look good, it should look good right off the assembly line or right out of the paint booth assuming in the case of the latter that the painter is experienced and has his paint process and paint booth dialed-in.





Definitely, the paint is more open and thus liquids and gasses can theoretically more easily pass through the paint.

Applying a non-abrasive, pure polish or bodyshop glaze might help to mask the scratches and improve the appearance of the paint. But since non-abrasive, pure polishes and bodyshop safe glazes are water soluble, the masking effect will be only temporary at best and if the product dries white then it could end up revealing the defects, not hiding them.

My neighbor has major crows feet and now I know I cant help them. I always knew this but wanted to think that I could do something. Well, guess it goes to the paint booth then. Thank u

 

[tuscarora dave]

Regarding the crows feet, and I suppose the fracturing as well, would a coating like Opti-Coat help prevent it from getting any worse? Maybe buy them some time? I know it certainly isn't going to get any better...

I applied Opti-Coat 2.0 to my Buick's paint in an attempt to delay the onset of clear coat fracturing. Not really knowing at what rate the progression of the problem would have been otherwise, it's a bit hard to say whether it slowed it down or not. It is very very glossy clear coat fracturing though...:xyxthumbs:

 

[Hoytman]

Dave,
I like your 'fogginess' term and assume you tie it what appears to be light oxidation, a different issue from the straight line appearance of fracturing or sanding marks?

The reason I ask is...

You probably have some pictures via email of my black hood with similar issues. With my home computer down, I can't post them, but perhaps if you have those photo's you could.

...I too thought that my problem had been solved after compounding and polishing. It's true that while perhaps what you and I both thought were fractures in my black clear coat could really have be sanding marks that were filled by fillers, or oils, in M205. After applying M205 and then opti-seal, it wasn't until it was well apparent that all protection was gone that the fractures, and/or sanding marks reappeared. However, it's not the fractures/sanding marks that baffle me. What baffles me are the spots of fogginess that have returned...spots (large areas the size of a mf towel) as well. This fogginess is a seperate issue aside from the fractures or straightline sanding marks, which ever they may be.

Sometimes I wonder if those areas of fogginess aren't areas where a finer sanding paper was used, and the lines of more course papers. I'm not sure what to think.

I am uncertain as to why these foggy areas reared their ugly head again...and in a way I'm glad I chose to neglent the paint to see if indeed any protection from polishing oils, and/or a sealant would mask an unknown paint issue. Indeed, the polishing oils and sealant did appear to mask an issue, or some other issue is going on.

The next order of operations is to recompound, repolish, then apply opti-coat to see if these problems dissappear for good. If not, it's on to a repaint of the hood and roof.

 

[tuscarora dave]

Dave,
I like your 'fogginess' term and assume you tie it what appears to be light oxidation, a different issue from the straight line appearance of fracturing or sanding marks?

The reason I ask is...

You probably have some pictures via email of my black hood with similar issues. With my home computer down, I can't post them, but perhaps if you have those photo's you could.

...I too thought that my problem had been solved after compounding and polishing. It's true that while perhaps what you and I both thought were fractures in my black clear coat could really have be sanding marks that were filled by fillers, or oils, in M205. After applying M205 and then opti-seal, it wasn't until it was well apparent that all protection was gone that the fractures, and/or sanding marks reappeared. However, it's not the fractures/sanding marks that baffle me. What baffles me are the spots of fogginess that have returned...spots (large areas the size of a mf towel) as well. This fogginess is a seperate issue aside from the fractures or straightline sanding marks, which ever they may be.

Sometimes I wonder if those areas of fogginess aren't areas where a finer sanding paper was used, and the lines of more course papers. I'm not sure what to think.

I am uncertain as to why these foggy areas reared their ugly head again...and in a way I'm glad I chose to neglent the paint to see if indeed any protection from polishing oils, and/or a sealant would mask an unknown paint issue. Indeed, the polishing oils and sealant did appear to mask an issue, or some other issue is going on.

The next order of operations is to recompound, repolish, then apply opti-coat to see if these problems dissappear for good. If not, it's on to a repaint of the hood and roof.

From what I recall Bill, from the phone conversations we had during your working on that project, you were using a rotary and wool pad with M-105 and at times shrinking your work sections down in size to just a few inches at a time before spurring your wool pad clean to chop through all of that heavy oxidation that was on your Blazer, TrailBlazer...

I just can't imagine any sanding marks surviving that treatment. Did the marks return over time? Not the fogginess but the fracturing/sanding marks...?

I'll take a look back through my emails but I'm pretty sure those emails are long gone.

 

[Hoytman]

From what I recall Bill, from the phone conversations we had during your working on that project, you were using a rotary and wool pad with M-105 and at times shrinking your work sections down in size to just a few inches at a time before spurring your wool pad clean to chop through all of that heavy oxidation that was on your Blazer, TrailBlazer...

That's correct, Dave. However, most that heavy stuff was on the roof. The foggy areas I'm referring to were on the hood.

I just can't imagine any sanding marks surviving that treatment. Did the marks return over time? Not the fogginess but the fracturing/sanding marks...?

As you and I discussed, the fracturing itself would not disappear because it's all the way through the clear. I accepted that, and then expected to see it return; it did just as you predicted. However, like you stated above, I couldn't see any foggy areas surviving the rotary/wool/M105 treatment, but it too came back. I think that is very interesting. I'll try and get some more pics of it posted.

Hope all is well with you my friend. Give me a call this weekend, or some night this week.

 

[Hoytman]

Some areas of the paint are seeing a return of some foggy areas, but I've yet to notice any of the fracturing type marks yet. I'll know more when spring time comes and I'll post more pictures then, but here's a few before the transformation.

You can almost see hatch mark type fractures or sanding marks in this photo below.

Those cloudy areas are certainly rearing their ugly head again. I didn't get any paint transfer onto the pads, but I'm sure there can't be much life left in that paint.

 

[hamlyn]

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