Light marring from wax removal???

sportscarhiatus

sportscarhiatus

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Before I explain my scenario/question... I wanted to preface this by saying, I am an avid/experienced detailer, so proper application and removal of LSP's, along with proper surface prep is something I would like to think I already know (then again, maybe I'm doing things WAY wrong... LOL). Background, Marilyn is all corrected and buffed last year and this year, so she's sitting about 95-98% corrected.

Yesterday, wife took kid shopping, so I had a couple hours to myself. After a good wash, I proceeded to put a coat of CG Pete's 53, first time to use this. I did the entire car before removing. As I proceeded to remove the wax on parts of the hood and the front driver fender, I noticed some faint marring immediately after wiping it off... when I say faint marring, I mean you can barely see it under the halogen lights I had on. But it was there. Like 3 or so hairline sized marrs. It followed (what I thought) the outline of the path my MF towel took as I wiped. So it "seemed" like it just appeared as I removed my LSP.


So after swearing out loud, and knowing I had to buff that spot, I finished the rest of the car... I finished removing the rest of the car, and noticed no further marring. I switched MF towels, and proceeded to wipe very lightly for fear of inflicting further damage.

So my question is WHY in the world, did the slight marring occur???

I thought about it hard.... and came up with a few reasons


1) my MF had crap on it???? I used a blue MF freshly washed from CG, plush, decent sized naps. Thing about it is, it's dark blue, so maybe it was hard to see the speck of dirt if any? I always inspect my towels before having it touch paint. Maybe I didn't do a good job.




2) I pushed too hard on the MF?????? I know I have to be gentle. Petes 53 actually removes almost as easy as souveran or Fuzion, so no pressure needed. Maybe I wasn't thinking and pushed like a mad man to remove??? Can MF's on their own (not dirt) cause marring??? I would think so, esp if the fabric itself is hard/tough?




3) Maybe the marring there ALREADY? and my eyes played tricks on me??? As my eye crossed the light path of the halogens, I actually SAW it there? Meaning it was still there already in the first place???




4) The wax itself being hard? I DOUBT this. Wax is wax. It shouldn't cause the marring. It's the application technique or the MF, or there was dust on the car. ... or something.





Anyways, I'm baffled. That never happened to me before.

What say you?
 
Have you ever used that type of towel before? Are they the 'Big Monster Microfiber Extreme" 550 ones? I bought a few of them and they felt a bit rough so I relegated them to spray on car wash duty. Ive been using the rolled edge ones from Autogeek for wax removal, they are awesome, and super soft.
 
KneeDragr said:
Have you ever used that type of towel before? Are they the 'Big Monster Microfiber Extreme" 550 ones? I bought a few of them and they felt a bit rough so I relegated them to spray on car wash duty. Ive been using the rolled edge ones from Autogeek for wax removal, they are awesome, and super soft.
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Well, I used it once when it was new, and it's seen been washed. I've been washing my MF's for a long time with no ill effects so I know it's not the washing technique.

But anyways, the first time I used it, it was GREAT! That's why I wanted to use it again. They're dark blue and black sewn edges. They felt soft... but maybe last night, just a tad less soft??? not sure :( here's the link to what I used:


MONSTER MICROFIBER JUMBO ABSORBER
 
It could have been anything- an errant dust particle coupled with too much pressure?

One thing I'd recommend, is they say Pete's doesn't dry to a haze, so you can buff immediately. Maybe buff eash panel once you've applied to the wax, so it will be even easier to remove, meaning you use less pressure.
 
sportscarhiatus said:
They felt soft... but maybe last night, just a tad less soft??? not sure :( here's the link to what I used:


MONSTER MICROFIBER JUMBO ABSORBER
Click to expand...

Yeah same ones. I wash them right out of the bag. For some reason mine felt a bit grabby and rough, so like I said, I relegated them to spray on car wash duty on my Vette, where they see plenty of lubricants to avoid scratching. No problems there as of yet, with Vette super hard clear coat there as well.
 
sportscarhiatus said:
Yesterday, wife took kid shopping, so I had a couple hours to myself. After a good wash, I proceeded to put a coat of CG Pete's 53, first time to use this.

I did the entire car before removing.

As I proceeded to remove the wax on parts of the hood and the front driver fender, I noticed some faint marring immediately after wiping it off... when I say faint marring, I mean you can barely see it under the halogen lights I had on.
Click to expand...


Easy enough to trouble shoot... simply,

  • Re-polish a section on the hood to a state of flawlessness.
  • Apply the Pete's 53
  • Wipe one section with a known good performing towel
  • Wipe wax off a different section using the towel in question
  • Inspect the resutls...


:)
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Easy enough to trouble shoot... simply,



  • Re-polish a section on the hood to a state of flawlessness.
  • Apply the Pete's 53
  • Wipe one section with a known good performing towel
  • Wipe wax off a different section using the towel in question
  • Inspect the resutls...

:)
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike... yeah, I was thinking about doing that to find the culprit. I went home for lunch today, and did as small section that I knew still had some faint marring. I polished it up the same way, using PC, gray pad, Power Finish. Then gray pad with blacklight. Then Pete's 53, with known good towel. No marring whatsoever. Granted, I was reeeeeally careful with it. Pete's 53 is good stuff, so I know it had to be my towel (at the time), or my technique (pushed too hard, etc). So I threw the dirty towels in the wash again and will see once it gets dry. I will reuse that towel in question using good techniques and see if that marrs it again.

On a related note, if it does marr again, obviously, I'll have to rebuff that area again. I don't own a paint thickness gauge, but on average, how much paint am I removing from a white pad with power finish using a PC? Obviously the answer will be it depends...depends on oem paint thickness, how hard the clear is, how hard you push down on the pad, how long/many passes I do... etc etc. Fine I accept that, but can you Mike or anyone else estimate how much paint I'm removing with a white pad and power finish? I just want to know how many times I am "allowed" to buff it before I need to be concerned of clear coat thin-ness.

thanks.
 
sportscarhiatus said:
On a related note, if it does marr again, obviously, I'll have to rebuff that area again.

I don't own a paint thickness gauge, but on average, how much paint am I removing from a white pad with power finish using a PC?
Click to expand...


If I were you in your situation... removing too much paint would be the least of my worries...


:xyxthumbs:
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
If I were you in your situation... removing too much paint would be the least of my worries...


:xyxthumbs:
Click to expand...

I understand Mike... but still, I'm just curious and would like to know. That's why you're our detailing god so you can answer these questions in your sleep. :)

How much am I removing? If I scale the paint thickness to a number of say, 100, each time I lightly polish it with a white pad (I plan to do this yearly 1x to 2x), am I removing a 1 or a 2 out of a 100?
 
sportscarhiatus said:
How much am I removing? If I scale the paint thickness to a number of say, 100, each time I lightly polish it with a white pad (I plan to do this yearly 1x to 2x), am I removing a 1 or a 2 out of a 100?
Click to expand...

That could be a very general way of coming up with some type of number. Or, this answer, very little... no way if giving your a definitive hard, number.

Here's a test I did and only removed .4 to .5 mils and this was after doing a lot of sanding followed with a lot of buffing... you're not coming anywhere near what I was doing...


Below are a few pics for the below thread, but lots of info in the actual thread...

Removing Orange Peel & Sanding Marks with the Griot's ROP and the Wolfgang Twins

WetSandingExperiment1031.jpg






The 3M Painter's Tape Grid System has been re-applied to the paint and next I'll mark the general areas I've been measuring.
WetSandingExperiment1058.jpg


Crunching the numbers, here's the results...
wetsandingstatistics.jpg
 
I have some of those Blue monster towels and I also agree that the short nap side of them feels rather rough. Not as soft as the Gray MF towel that CG makes. I feel the Gray towel is the best MF CG offers. Its super soft. way softer than the blue one. I too did not feel to fond of the Blue chemical guys towel. Easiest way to tell if the towel is too coarse is to take a brand new music CD, hold it up to the light and wipe it in one direction on the brand new CD. IF you see marring or scratch's in the motion you wiped with, you will know the MF towel can marr paint. From what I understand the reading face of a CD is similar to the scratch resistance of clear coat paint.
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
That could be a very general way of coming up with some type of number. Or, this answer, very little... no way if giving your a definitive hard, number.



Here's a test I did and only removed .4 to .5 mils and this was after doing a lot of sanding followed with a lot of buffing... you're not coming anywhere near what I was doing...





Below are a few pics for the below thread, but lots of info in the actual thread...



Removing Orange Peel & Sanding Marks with the Griot's ROP and the Wolfgang Twins
Click to expand...

Mike, thank you so much. That's exactly what I was looking for, quantified. This is perfect. You've answered a question that has been nagging me for years, literally. LOL.

I don't plan to do any wetsanding or severe compounding, at least on any of my cars... maybe on some customer cars in the future. But still, it's nice to know that in the lifetime of me owning my cars, I will never get to even 1/2 of the original clear coat thickness...even if lightly polishing every so often.

Sorry for the side question.

Now back to me improving the way I REMOVE wax with a MF. LOL.
 
mg6045 said:
I have some of those Blue monster towels and I also agree that the short nap side of them feels rather rough. Not as soft as the Gray MF towel that CG makes. I feel the Gray towel is the best MF CG offers. Its super soft. way softer than the blue one. I too did not feel to fond of the Blue chemical guys towel. Easiest way to tell if the towel is too coarse is to take a brand new music CD, hold it up to the light and wipe it in one direction on the brand new CD. IF you see marring or scratch's in the motion you wiped with, you will know the MF towel can marr paint. From what I understand the reading face of a CD is similar to the scratch resistance of clear coat paint.
Click to expand...

I forgot about that technique!!! I need to do this when I get home and finish drying the MF's (including the CG blues) that I just washed.

btw, side note... have you guys ever heard of adding vinegar to washing MF's? It's a natural softener from what I hear?
 
I'd be more inclined to think you just picked up some debris that landed on the paint. Was it a windy day? Were you working outside or in an enclosed garage?
 
sportscarhiatus said:
I forgot about that technique!!! I need to do this when I get home and finish drying the MF's (including the CG blues) that I just washed.

btw, side note... have you guys ever heard of adding vinegar to washing MF's? It's a natural softener from what I hear?
Click to expand...

Keep in mind though that no matter how soft a towel is, if you TRY hard enough , ANYTHING will scratch. So when doing the CD trick, just wipe it as hard as you would on the paint.
 
RaskyR1 said:
I'd be more inclined to think you just picked up some debris that landed on the paint. Was it a windy day? Were you working outside or in an enclosed garage?
Click to expand...

Rasky, thanks for input.

You know what, now that you mentioned it, now that the weather has been getting better here lately, it was 60some degrees yesterday, so I opened my garage door 1/2way, to allow for some air and some light. I DO recall it being windy, because I complained about how I JUST finished drying her and final detail spraying her, and had to wipe it off again because some very light dust settled on her from the minute I put down the spray to picking up Petes 53.

It is crazy how we can hurt our car's finish by doing something we love, and as simple as waxing. Sheeeesh. Car's paints are SO sensitive... it sucks. You just look at it wrong, and it swirls or marrs. I mean, I obviously can't detail my car in a vacuum sealed room. LOL. My car gets dusty just sitting in my garage for a few hours... and yes my garage is clean.

Oh well, I just need to be even more careful when detailing, I guess.
 
sportscarhiatus said:
btw, side note... have you guys ever heard of adding vinegar to washing MF's? It's a natural softener from what I hear?
Click to expand...

I've heard of it and I've tried it. Added it in during the final rinse cycle. Then I bought some dedicated MF cleaner and didn't worry about it.

In my mind it worked, but I have not quantifiable evidence. We should come up with a dedicated "softness" scale for grading Microfiber products!
 
You have to ask yourself when is enough cut enough? How perfect or "correct" can you REALLY get it and how long will it stay that way? Of course I did just buy some Menzerna power finish, super finish, CG black light, and Wg fuzion because I read someone on here had pretty good results with it, :-) and I saw some scratches in the PA sunshine yesterday. I thought I "corrected" the paint around 95% last weekend.
 
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