I think I'm a new candidate for "Horrendous"

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

John,


Here's some cars Laura's buffed out. She's attended my detailing class and is completely capable of undoing the damage and also showing you the correct techniques for removing swirls and restore a true show car finish.

I can't promise you she'll take the job but we can ask...



Lessons I learned from a Black 2009 BMW 550i


Lesson #1 – Even people with good intentions don’t know how to take care of their paint.
This car is basically the only thing a friend of mine got out of his recent divorce. It has almost 25,000 miles on it and compared to most cars with similar mileage, it was very clean. He had it on a regular schedule with a detailer, and he was very careful with it. He thought he was doing everything right.

Water Spots:

Fender Scuffs:

Swirly:

Trunk 50/50:

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...you-ag-forum-first-detail-lexus-ls-460-a.html


The paint had swirls and rids like this all over.

And the final package

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/35897-today-s-project-2003-snapper-sr1433.html

Before

After

Here's another demonstration of what she can do...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...eme-practice-what-i-did-not-do-chevy-pos.html


This is an example of scratches I WAS able to remove…

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/22538-1st-post-worthy-detail-2009-ford-ranger.html

Engine before & after:

I'll send her the link to this thread...

 

[Hoytman]

Laura does exceptional work. Not only is she good, but she's a genuine good hearted down to earth person. That doesn't mean she'll take this detail, rather, I'm just sharing my experiences with her via pm. She's a caring person...I simply can't say enough about how much she impressed me...with her abilities, compassion, and kindness.

I hadn't seen her thread with the Snapper mower. Wow!

This thread... http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/33599-lessons-i-learned-black-2009-bmw-550i.html knocked me off my feet. Laura is soley responsible for giving me confidence to step into the detailing world myself. (On a side note...she's cost me a bit of money too, but that's okay. I forgive her...He he he.)

 

[J S Machine]

Update:

Well it has been a few weeks since I last posted about this situation. I really hate to come back with bad news, but that's all there is.

Bryan Burnworth was nice enough to check my paint for me. We determined that the car still had sufficient clear left to work with and could be corrected with minimal aggressiveness.

As I stated before, I was given two options. The first was to take it back to the guy that did the damage in the pictures previously posted. The second was to take it somewhere on my own, but once I did that I had to sign a waiver saying that it was finished. The company would pay for the detail somewhere else, but I had to sign the waiver releasing them of responsibility.

Well, I took my chances with a local guy and signed the waiver. I now have a car that is not much better than before, with even some new stuff going on. Rather than waste my time by badmouthing the detailer that did it, I will just write this off as the assumption that he had good intentions, but it didn't turn out correct.

Now I think my only option, unfortunately, is to fix it out of my own pocket. This hurts, but I might as well get over it and get to learning how to do it on my own. There is obviously nobody local to me that is able to fix it.

Like I mentioned before, somebody mentioned one of the kits with the 7424xp buffers. Obviously, I'm going to have to have one of these kits to fix it right. Please recommend something that will work for me based on the pictures in the beginning of this thread.

I will learn how to do this. It's my only option at this point.

Thanks.

 

[Hoytman]

One of the first and best suggestions I could give to you would be for you to first purchase Mike Phillips' book. It will show you photo's of differenent degrees of paint defects. From these photo's in his book, and even the photo's you've posted in this thread, Mr. Phillips can help you determine what to buy, and how to use it.

You having only 7 posts on this forum doesn't give me any indication of how much reading and research you may or may not have done prior to this problem. I'm concerned about this. So, please take time and read the forum, Mike's book, and his videos on this forum and educate yourself. Make sure that you understand the processes involved before tackling this on your own. It can be done by you, just make sure you thoroughly understand the processes.

I'd get some paint guage readings before you start as now after two attempts your clear coat is even thinner and will again get even more thin when you attempt to fix it again. Paint guage readings are important and a must at this point, in my opinion.

I'm not so sure I'd go with a kit though. Pick a DA or dual action polisher, of your chosing, and go with it. It really doesn't matter which one just as long as you're comfortable with the purchase.

I'm a bit hesitant to give additional information, but since no one else has replied yet as I'm typing this, I'll give it a shot.

I'd pick some 5 inch, or even 4 inch Lake Country flat foam pads in orange, white, and black, or Lake Country Hydrotech thin pads in blue, tangerine, and crimson. If you need more aggressive pads than the orange LC pads, you might go with some micro-fiber cutting discs from Meguiar's, Lake Country, or Optimum. Here Meguiars DA Microfiber Correction System 5 Inch Starter Kit, paint correction kit, dual action polishing kit is a kit that is made to work with factory, hard, baked on paint systems and will work with any dual action polisher of your chosing. Just remember that the kit is designed to be used with a Meguiar's DA at a given speed. That doesn't mean the system can't be used with another brand DA polisher. That means if you chose the Griot's polisher you may have to turn it down some since it's a bit more powerful than some of the other DA's. It means you may have to run a PC 7424xp on speed six to get the correction you need. You'll then need to figure out your technique that will product the results you want; pressure and arm speed are part of this equation. The Meguiar's D300 should provide plenty of cut along with the micro-fiber cutting discs, should you need that level of aggressiveness.

If you don't need the extra cut, and you won't really know until you do a test spot...I said you won't really know until you do a test spot...you could just buy items seperately. Chose a dual action polisher of your liking, get some sort of 4-5 inch pads (LC flats in orange, white, and black), or go with two sizes for example 3 inch and 5 inch pads. The 3 inch pads will help you polish out the tight spots and are great even used by hand.

Compounds and polish for a vette with hard paint. Perhaps Meguiar's M105/M205 combo, and then for the final some Menzerna SF 4500 would knock it out of the park.

EDIT:
I'm not a professional, not even an experienced ametuer, rather, an observant student of a master in his art form. That said, I'd still defer to Mr. Phillips for the final word on what you should do.

 

[J S Machine]

Thanks.

Keep in mind that the car has been repainted and has been tested. The clear looked good when it was checked by Bryan Burnworth. This last detailer did not get all of the holograms in the pictures out, and also introduced some of his own. There are also some more fine scratches. I'm confident it can be fixed..just need the right recommendation on products and where to start.

 

[Hoytman]

Thanks.

Keep in mind that the car has been repainted and has been tested. The clear looked good when it was checked by Bryan Burnworth. This last detailer did not get all of the holograms in the pictures out, and also introduced some of his own. There are also some more fine scratches. I'm confident it can be fixed..just need the right recommendation on products and where to start.

That's why I included the micro-fiber kit. I didn't read the entire thread and wasn't sure if the car had been repainted or not. I simply wanted to give you many options to chose from and to include the micro-fiber kit in my reply in case it was factory paint. I wasn't sure when I replied.

Without knowing exactly what processes the last detailer used, I'd still have the paint measured again, but that is just me. I'm understanding the paint was read before the last detailer touched it? If this is the case, then remeasuring might not be necessary. However, since I don't know what the reading are, and it wouldn't matter if I did, I recommended you getting new readings. I'd want to know how much the last detailer removed if it were my car. However, with you knowing the readings, you may not deem in necessary and that is fine.

As for products and recommendations since it's been repainted, see the rest of my previous post...foam pads of your chosing, M105/M205 and Menzerna SF 4500. You could also chose Optimum polishes, or Mothers Professional line of products, or strictly go with the Menzerna line. Those are four quality product lines. Technique will prove to be the most important to you. You'll need to get the technique dialed-in when you do your test spot.

 

[J S Machine]

I'm going to take it out this afternoon and get some more pictures of it. This latest detailer waxed it like crazy, so I have got to get as much of that off as possible. Any hints on how to best do that would be great.

I don't really think the paint needs to be checked again, because he did very little. Some of the holograms and swirls that were there since the first time are still there. He also introduced a few of his own, that I can tell by the smaller diameter polisher he was using. He also wet sanded the car with 2500, but he did not press hard enough to even cut through the orange peel. He basically just knocked off the high spots, and left the lower areas. If I can find a good picture of what I'm trying to describe, I'll post it.

From here on out, what it is going to take is a stepped process, and I am probably not even going to be able to do whole panels. I'm probably going to have to section the panels up. There are just so many areas that need attention, I can;t possibly fix them one whole panel at a time.

Stay tuned for pictures of the car tonight.

 

[J S Machine]

This is exactly what it looks like, but not nearly as far as this one has been sanded. The high spots have barely been touched, and the gloss in the lower areas is pretty prevalent.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Well, I took my chances with a local guy and signed the waiver. I now have a car that is not much better than before, with even some new stuff going on.

Sorry to hear this.... did you ask this detailer,

Do you hang out on any detailing discussion forums?
What do you use for compounds and polishes?
What do you use for pads?
What do you use for tools, especially for the last machine process?


Laura could have either fixed this for you the right way or shown you how you could have done it and you would be done with this horror story. She knows more than most detailers that don't hang out on forums like this because she's been to my class and the proof is in the write-ups she's posted.

It's real simple, detailers that hang out on forums like this know more than detailers that don't. The proof is in your driveway.

This last detailer did not get all of the holograms in the pictures out, and also introduced some of his own.

Anytime holograms are induced it means paint is being removed. So...

The first guy removed paint and left scratches or voids behind.
The second guy removed paint and left scratches or voids behind.

Now the next time, in order to remove the swirls and scratches, more paint will need to be removed. It's a darn shame...


:dunno:

 

[J S Machine]

I know I have a problem here guys. Unfortunately, I didn't have much control of the situation, as some of you know. My hands were tied.

First of all, lets back up to what Bryan did. I drove my car up to the Atlanta area about three weeks ago and got him to test the paint. When I pulled into his garage, he washed the entire car with the two bucket wash method, dried it, and then proceeded to check the paint. He tested the paint thickness on the entire car, and determined there to be enough there to work with.

********************

I'm going to take a minute here to explain that. I may have not mentioned it beforehand, but the hood was repainted a few years ago by a local guy. It looked pretty decent up until about six months ago, but then it started to fade. These are pictures of what it started to do:

These pictures ought to be pretty telling. It is obviously some sort of clear coat failure. I'm not sure exactly whats going on, but when Bryan and I tested it, it seemed to have alot more clear on it that the rest of the car. Whatever the case, no matter what is done, it always comes back to look like this in a few weeks. I buffed and polished it myself one time, and it looked good for about three weeks or so. Recently, the guy that messed the car up did it as well, and it looked good for about a week. Then, the last guy that did the car did it too, and I'll bet money that it starts to look rough again within a week. I contribute this to polishes and fillers hiding all the defects in the actual paint temporarily.

Bryan did a spot on the hood to investigate. After repeatedly wiping it with IPA, it still looked about the same, even through multiple polishing steps. We both determined that something weird is definitely going on, and it will have to be repainted. I really don't see any use in spending any more time on it..unless you folks have some different ideas.

**************************

That being said, lets talk about what has been done. Remember, everything on the car was repainted about a year ago, after I hit a deer. The car left the road and went off into a wooded area on the side of the road. Most of the car sustained damage, so it was all painted...except for the hood and the headlight covers. This sucks for one reason..and that is because of the problems I'm having now with the hood..The body shop did call and ask if I wanted them to go ahead and do the whole car, but I refused. They had already charged me more than my deductable for some BS charge they made up, but that is a different story. Anyway, they wanted about another $500 to do the whole car. I should have taken them up on it though.

The spot Bryan did on the roof was the area of concern, because we knew this could be corrected. Here he is polishing the roof-

And here is the result-

All in all, I wish Bryan could have done the car. He would have charged a very expensive price, and the company refused to pay it. They suggested I go get a test spot done by the guy I had orignally wanted to do it, the guy that a friend recommended, The local guy who ended up doing the last detail. So I took it up to his shop and he did a test spot on the hatch. Once he had done that, it looked pretty good. About the only thing that concerned me was that he started with a rotary. He then came behind it with a dual head orbital and worked on it with that. When he finished, the spot looked pretty good. When I got home I wiped it with IPA just to be sure all the waxes and fillers were gone, and took this pic. It looks pretty good-

It wasn't as good as Bryans, but it looked light years better than the swirls and holograms left by the first guy. I decided that this was gonna have to work and signed the waiver. When I took it to him, he told me he would set up a light (The construction lights I've seen others here in this forum using) and do one panel at a time. He assured me that when I got it back it would be perfect. I left not 100% convinced, and that has proven to be a feeling that came true..

He claims they even took the car out in the sun and turned it all around and checked every panel. They must be blind, because I can still clearly see many of the defects, and even some he did himself. So, after this, I will not be taking it back to him, even though he told me if I had any problems to bring it back. I'm convinced this is one of those cases where the guy truly thinks he knows what he's doing and means well, but he is ill-informed.

So now I am left with this, and I will have to fix it. The company will pay the last detail guy's charge, but they are done with it. It is clear that nobody around here knows how to fix it, so I will have to do this on my own. Laura will be the closest person to me, and I will have to consult with her again. I have been in contact with her, and she was up to speed with the situation untill this last guy did his work. I will refer her to this thread again to catch her up.

So, the first step will be to get some good pictures of what I have. I will try to get those this afternoon if not tomorrow.

Thanks




Lets just go with the fact that the hood is messed up. we settled on that based on the paint thickness readings, solvent pop present on the surface, and the fact that even after a multistep process, the test area still looked just about the same as the surrounding area.

 

[Hoytman]

To me, if a detailer checks your paint with a meter that is a good thing. If the next detailer doesn't at least ask what those readings were, that's a bad thing. Then if that detailer goes on to use 2500 (or any grit) paper then starts buffing with a rotary without remeasuring the paint himself, or at the least asking what the measurements were, then there's a red flag for me.

Typically, a repaint will show paint guage readings much thicker than factory readings. That's a good thing and you'd probably be okay, but why risk it? You have no way of now knowing how much paint was removed after your initial paint readings were taken because additional paint was removed via sanding. That is, if I understand how you've described it correctly. Please don't take this as me bustin' your chops...I'm concerned and would like for this to get resolved.

If the hood is having its own issues because of another repaint, I can except that. It might require anothe repaint. However, the rest of the car should be fixed by now and it isn't. You certainly do have an issue and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

I think getting in contact with Laura again is a great idea.

 

[J S Machine]

To me, if I still see some of the swirls that were there before, I doubt the last detailer did anything much more to the paint. Honestly, I don't think he was aggressive enough.

Bryan charged me $50 to check it, and that is fair. I am not going to drive (2.5 hours one way) all the way back to Atlanta to get him to check it again. I'm already out about $70 of my own money for a problem that was not my fault to begin with.

That being said, I feel like there is plenty left on the car to work with, especially if I use the least aggressive method in my approach to fix it.

I appreciate your concer though and thanks.

 

[J S Machine]

Here are the updated pics. It seems that he did get some of the swirls out, but not all of them. He put some of his own in..Notice the small 3" or 4" pad trails. Also prevalent are small scratches (circled in red in some pictures). I guess he got a piece of sand in his sandpaper or something, and dragged it into the paint while wet sanding..who knows... Probably the most alarming of the pics is the last one. He actually burned through the paint Look near the bottom of tha halo behind the window (Circled in red).

 

[J S Machine]

The red circles didn;t show up well, but if you look close you can see them in a couple pics.

There were also noticeable swirls on the top, but I was unable to get those in pics. It would take parking it under a light again.

 

[vegas911gts]

Don't take shortcuts this time. Take it to someone who you know will get it done right even if it will cost you more.

 

[Hoytman]

He didn't remove much, yet he instilled swirls on his own? He (they) didn't have enough knowledge and skill to remove the swirls and holograms they made...even burned through the paint? Do you still think the last detailer didn't do that much damage? Honestly, I hope you're re-assessing what these guys have done to your car, and the advice I've tried so desparately to give you...all with good intentions and legitimate concern.

If this were my car and I wanted it fixed right I'd bite the bullet for the $50 and another 2 1/2 hour trip for paint measurements, OR find a detailer who has a paint guage and the knowledge to remedy this for you. To me, it's you're only way out unless you decide to fix it yourself, which you still can. However, there's no way I'd proceed without first remeasuring this paint. No way!

It would seem to me that if the detailers messed it up worse then they should be responsible and the insurance should go after them.

If you're honest with yourself there is absolutely know way to know how much clear is left on the paint of this car. The more posts you make about it, the more information you reveal about it and it only confirms my original statements.

Please, I'm not trying to be rude, but you need to be honest with yourself. This paint has been hacked up twice since your initial paint readings and there is no way in this world to know how much real damage has been done after all of this. What are you going to do if another detailer makes another mistake? What if you make a mistake? I think I'd put my money on remeasuring to get a baseline of what might be left and go from there. It's simply not worth the risk in my mind. Beside it's cheap peace-of-mind and won't even cost you what your own tools and products will cost you. That's a $50,000 dollar car, or more...I'm just floored that you're in this predicament and even moreso that you'd take yet another risk with your car. It simply isn't worth it in my mind to put yourself through all of that.

The reality is I can't make you do what I'm suggesting. However, if you approached me with this job, and knowing what I know about it, there is no way I'd touch this car without taking more paint measurements. No way! As a detailer it wouldn't be worth the risk for me without knowing what I'm up against.

Mr. Phillips has stated many times that the best detailers frequent forums and are typically more detailing savvy, or up-to-date on information regarding detailing. Why don't you ask your next detailer if they frequent forums. If they don't, red flag. Ask a detailer to take a look at this thread before commiting to "try" and fix your car. If they're smart they'll take more paint film measurements.

I hope you're able to get this resolved. Let us know what happens and show us some picutures of how it turned out.

 

[Hoytman]

J S Machine...

Good to talk with you this morning. Sounds like you have a plan in place and you certainly have a unique situation on your hands. However, I'm confident you'll get this resolved and get your car back where it should be.

By the way, the car show was great today.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I just looked at the pictures the OP posted to this thread and man... the paint on this Corvette is really hacked up... it looks horrible. Any Newbie with a quality one-step cleaner/wax and a basic DA Polisher and a simple foam polishing pad could have made it look better than it is and still could.


I took this one photo and cropped out the pertinent portion to 800 pixels wide, (which is good netiquette), and uploaded it into the OP's free gallery here on AGO because Photobucket pictures tend to disappear over time...

To me, these look like holograms inflicted by a rotary buffer.

The lines of shimmer are the give away...


At this point I personally wouldn't touch this car with a 10 foot pole because if the unknown hack work performed by the other two detailers.

Swirls are scratches, that is voids in the paint where paint is now missing. The two detailers that have buffed on this car have swirled it out or in other words removed paint. How much? Doesn't matter at this point.

A more knowledgeable and more careful detailer could work on this car now and still burn through what's left of the clear coat. Not because they don't know what they are doing but because chances are too good the clear layer is now what I call,


Whisper Thin


I previously recommended letting Laura help you with it and I documented her ability to do professional grade work in this thread. Now I'm going to recommend to her to let someone else have the blessing. This type of job isn't worth risking a good reputation.


To the OP, at this point you can consider doing something very simple,

1. Hand apply a light polish or a light cleaner/wax and live with what you get and drive the car.

2. Purchase a DA Polisher like the Porter Cable along with a medium to light cut polish and a few 5.5" flat pad pads and buff it out yourself. The Pinnacle Advanced and Finishing Polishes can probably undo the damage safely. Key word being safely.


If you or anyone burns through, or as some say, "strike-through" the clear layer of paint it's not going to be their fault it's because there's too little clear paint left to start with.


So take the least aggressive approach practice and then just drive it...


:xyxthumbs:

 

[J S Machine]

Mike, and anyone else who would like to reply-

Can you please reply in the thread I started in the cutting and buffing section? Thanks

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...x-corvette-need-recommendations-products.html