Flex 3401 or rupes bigfoot.

[ObsessiveAutoDetail]

Wouldn't the KB washer mod solve this problem as it moves the backing plate away from the shroud to allow more effortless spinning??

From KB post on another forum: "However, a purpose-built shroud not only covers the driveshaft-mounted rotating components, but also slows backing plate rotation via drag-induced friction.

Marco (the Rupes® engineer that developed the machine) explained that excessive rotation could cause scouring of the polishing surface if the backing plate and buffing pad were allowed to freewheel spin prior to contacting the polishing surface. He also mentioned that excessive rotation was considered to be a safety hazard in some parts of the world. Understanding his reasoning, I nevertheless decided to install a spacer between the backing plate and mounting pad in hopes of restoring a maximum amount of backing plate rotation.

With the spacer installed, backing plate rotation increased immensely. While I was not able to verify exactly how big an increase occurred in terms of backing plate rotation or cutting power, I can say that it was a LOT. My best guess: backing plate rotation increased to 10-14 times per second, and cutting speed increased by about 50 percent.
If a rotary buffer outfitted with a wool pad had any sort of performance advantage over the Bigfoot, the advantage was nearly or completely negated after this easy to implement modification. This newfound cutting power elevates the Bigfoot to superstar status. I hope that Marco will not be overly upset by the addition of the spacer, and I am sure he is aware of the tremendous rotation potential of this machine (otherwise there would have been no need to design the shroud to contact the backing plate)."
Later in the thread KB verifies with Rupes that this mod does not affect the warranty.

Although I do understand that there is a modification that has been discovered that increases rotation and therefore, the "correcting" power of the machine. But again, isn't the cutting power derived from the oscillation of the pad? Isn't the rotation a byproduct of the oscillation of the pad? The only reason I raise this point is in response to people saying the machine stops spinning on less than flat panels - isn't the machine still cutting/polishing even though it is not spinning? No engineer here - just my understanding and observations.

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[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Although I do understand that there is a modification that has been discovered that increases rotation and therefore, the "correcting" power of the machine. But again, isn't the cutting power derived from the oscillation of the pad? Isn't the rotation a byproduct of the oscillation of the pad?

Both movements are desired design features of the tool.

What Marco told me was that the washer mod increases rotation but decreases oscillation and that's not what designed to tool to do. They designed it to offer about 50% oscillation and 50% rotation and this plus the long orbit stroke plus the pad designs and compounds and polishes, would provide excellent cutting without inducing holograms or burning paint.

At least that's what Marco D'Inca told me in person.

The only reason I raise this point is in response to people saying the machine stops spinning on less than flat panels - isn't the machine still cutting/polishing even though it is not spinning? No engineer here - just my understanding and observations.

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When machine buffing with any type of tool, if the pad is not physically moving over the surface, (spinning or rotating), but instead is just vibrating or jiggling, it's not going to remove paint and thus defects are not being removed.

Defects are removed out of paint by removing paint and leveling the surface.

I've seen people on other forums try to make the case that when a pad on a DA Polisher like a Porter Cable is not rotating but just vibrating, that defects are being removed. I don't agree but I have seen people try to convince others it's possible.

Even if some measure of paint could be removed simply by having a pad vibrating against the paint it will always be faster and more effective to actually have the pad moving over the surface in some manner, either 100% rotating action like offered by a rotary buffer or a combination of rotating and oscillation like offered by tools like Rupes, Porter Cable and Flex.

 

[ObsessiveAutoDetail]

Both movements are desired design features of the tool.

What Marco told me was that the washer mod increases rotation but decreases oscillation and that's not what designed to tool to do. They designed it to offer about 50% oscillation and 50% rotation and this plus the long orbit stroke plus the pad designs and compounds and polishes, would provide excellent cutting without inducing holograms or burning paint.

At least that's what Marco D'Inca told me in person.




When machine buffing with any type of tool, if the pad is not physically moving over the surface, (spinning or rotating), but instead is just vibrating or jiggling, it's not going to remove paint and thus defects are not being removed.

Defects are removed out of paint by removing paint and leveling the surface.

I've seen people on other forums try to make the case that when a pad on a DA Polisher like a Porter Cable is not rotating but just vibrating, that defects are being removed. I don't agree but I have seen people try to convince others it's possible.

Even if some measure of paint could be removed simply by having a pad vibrating against the paint it will always be faster and more effective to actually have the pad moving over the surface in some manner, either 100% rotating action like offered by a rotary buffer or a combination of rotating and oscillation like offered by tools like Rupes, Porter Cable and Flex.

Well thank you Mike for straightening out my understanding of how a DA polisher functions. I was obviously wrong in my thought process. I would have thought that minus rotation, the machine would still have the ability to correct via the actual oscillation. I guess I was incorrect.

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[ObsessiveAutoDetail]

Let me better explain my train of thought - And for discussions sake, this only applies to the Rupes DAs due to the huge stroke. Let's say I'm hand sanding a piece of wood. Lets also assume I am (somehow) sanding in an orbital motion using exactly a 15mm or 21mm stroke. I am generating sawdust - therefore I am cutting or removing material. Now, using this same orbital motion while I am sanding I am somehow able to introduce actual rotation into the mix - Now I am REALLY cutting and generating sawdust. Now, I am in no way trying to convince others that I am right. I am also no trying to disagree with someone whom I completely respect. I am just trying to figure out how this whole deal works.... If there is no actual rotation, that pad is still sliding 15 or even 21mm in a few directions... right? Or am I still off?

 

[SR99]

Let me better explain my train of thought - And for discussions sake, this only applies to the Rupes DAs due to the huge stroke. Let's say I'm hand sanding a piece of wood. Lets also assume I am (somehow) sanding in an orbital motion using exactly a 15mm or 21mm stroke. I am generating sawdust - therefore I am cutting or removing material. Now, using this same orbital motion while I am sanding I am somehow able to introduce actual rotation into the mix - Now I am REALLY cutting and generating sawdust. Now, I am in no way trying to convince others that I am right. I am also no trying to disagree with someone whom I completely respect. I am just trying to figure out how this whole deal works.... If there is no actual rotation, that pad is still sliding 15 or even 21mm in a few directions... right? Or am I still off?

Hi OAD, it sounds like you are thinking there are 2 independent motions of the pad: "reciprocating" and roataing. I'll offer what I think is going on, but someone would need to tear the unit apart and trace through the gearing to know for sure.

I don't believe there are 2 independent motions. They are coupled via eccentric gearing or some similar mechanism.

In order to get the "back and forth" motion that is set by the "throw" you have to have the rotation. This is because the back and forth motion isn't a purely linear motion but is a circular (or elliptical) motion. It is linked to the main rotation through offset gears, so the main drive shaft has to rotate in order for the coupled gearing that controls the throw to trace out its path of a 21mm diameter circle. If the main rotation stops, the gears that trace out the 21mm circle would also stop since they are driven by the main rotational gear.

I think you could prove this by just setting the base plate on a surface and pressing down hard so no rotation is allowed. 21mm is a visible throw, and if the 21mm were happening without rotation you would be able to see it.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I got the impression from a Meguiar's seminar that rotary skills will not be needed as much by most of the reconditioning business. With a DA, microfiber pads, and newer polishes, they can get the results needed by the business in general. (That was the DA+MF+D301 sales pitch).

You can train someone on a DA much more quickly with less risk of them damaging the paint in the process given has a fairly high turnover.

The "production" detailing world has historically tried to do all the paint care using only a rotary buffer and the results tend to look like this...

DISO = The Dealership Installed Swirl Option

The zillions of swirls in the clear layer make the paint look hazy and blocks your view of the black paint under the clear top coat.

Meguiar's is trying to change an industry that has not in the past been open to change.

Instead of the old way of trying to do everything with a rotary buffer Meguiar's introduced a 2-step approach that give better results with less destruction to the paint.

Anyone that's been reading any detailing discussion forum for any length of time already knows that dealerships, production details shops and even most body shops turn out swirled out paint jobs as a normal course of business and getting them to change requires both hard work and education.

FivePoint0:
I am glad to hear that I am not the only person that has issues with the lhr21es and the lhr15e stop rotating in curvey side panels. When that happens to me I still go back to the good old xc3401vrg. SIDE panels not an issue with the 3401.')

After Autogeek brought in the Rupes polishers and polishing system I used them on a 1955 Ford Crown Victoria with a lot of curved panels. A lot of our forum members wanted to know what I though about the Rupes polishers, see the 4th paragraph on the write-up posted back in February...


Rupes Polisher Time Lapse Video - 1955 Ford Crown Victoria

Lots of curves...

Well thank you Mike for straightening out my understanding of how a DA polisher functions. I was obviously wrong in my thought process. I would have thought that minus rotation, the machine would still have the ability to correct via the actual oscillation. I guess I was incorrect.

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You're thinking is okay but here's the dealio...

When it comes to a tool that has a free rotating bearing assembly like the Porter Cable, Meguiar's and Griot's DA polishers, or the similar design mechanism in the Rupes... if something is causing the pad to NOT rotating it's also going to cause the pad to not oscillate.


This is why I personally have avoided comparing the Rupes polishers to the Flex 3401, it is like comparing apples to oranges and I've posted this same thing previously.

Two very different tools and recently when a new forum member asked what tool I would recommend for someone doing production detailing I recommended the Flex 3401 with the Lake Country 4" backing plate and 5" Hybrid pads. I think I also recommended the purple or blue foamed wool pads also for doing heavy grunt work.


There's no one perfect tool on the market. There are many great tools and personal preference is very key to what will be the perfect tool or tools for each person.

 

[hernandez.art13]

I've read that the Rupes can buff out 1500. What can the flex buff out?

 

[ObsessiveAutoDetail]

When it comes to a tool that has a free rotating bearing assembly like the Porter Cable, Meguiar's and Griot's DA polishers, or the similar design mechanism in the Rupes... if something is causing the pad to NOT rotating it's also going to cause the pad to not oscillate.

Ok... Thank you. I guess I did not think about that.

Two very different tools and recently when a new forum member asked what tool I would recommend for someone doing production detailing I recommended the Flex 3401 with the Lake Country 4" backing plate and 5" Hybrid pads. I think I also recommended the purple or blue foamed wool pads also for doing heavy grunt work.

May I ask why you made that recommendation, Mike? I don't do production-type detailing per se... I do own an actual shop and get cars in and out - looking great mind you. I also do concours level detailing as well. I have the occasional Mercedes, BMW or exotic - but my meat and potatoes are daily drivers. People want them shiny and clean. I only ask because I am completely torn between the Rupes 15 and a Flex 3401. I just jumped on the MF pad bandwagon and using them on a PCXP the results are AMAZING. My thought is that if the Rupes 15 has twice the throw (15mm vs. 8mm), the time to correct should be reduced.

 

[Bunky]

I have the washer mod on my 15 and still will stop spinning on edges at lower speeds 3 to 4.

 

[Rsurfer]

I have the washer mod on my 15 and still will stop spinning on edges at lower speeds 3 to 4.

Will it spin on 5-6 with 15lbs. of pressure?Feed back please

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Large stroke machines are in general much more sensitive to technique on curved panels than smaller stroke machines; just the nature of the beast.

My buddy Charlie Hahn told me this and it makes plenty of sense. You really need to watch how you hold and tilt the Rupes. Technique plays a major role with the Rupes. I can keep the pad spinning on curved panels with my HD DA Polisher much easier than with the Rupes. This is not to say the Rupes is not capable(obviouslyyyyyyy it is), but you need to use the right technique.

 

[SR99]

Large stroke machines are in general much more sensitive to technique on curved panels than smaller stroke machines; just the nature of the beast.

If the large stroke machine has the exact same motor (torque curve) and clutch mechanism engagement sensitivity as the small stroke machine, maybe so. But the large stroke machine absolutely could be designed not to have those limitations with a powerful enough motor and different clutch mechanism.

Pad diameter probably has more effect, all else being equal. My PC7424, which is small stroke, is very sensitive (easy to stop the rotation) and is not too useful with larger pads but stalls far less with small pads. It also seems more sensitive to vertical use than horizontal use.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

If the large stroke machine has the exact same motor (torque curve) and clutch mechanism engagement sensitivity as the small stroke machine, maybe so. But the large stroke machine absolutely could be designed not to have those limitations with a powerful enough motor and different clutch mechanism.

Pad diameter probably has more effect, all else being equal. My PC7424, which is small stroke, is very sensitive (easy to stop the rotation) and is not too useful with larger pads but stalls far less with small pads. It also seems more sensitive to vertical use than horizontal use.

Well, many people are getting stellar results with the Rupes(curved panels), so I think technique is a huge factor to keep the pad rotating as much as possible. However, I think a more powerful motor would have been more efficient with the Rupes, granted, with the wrong technique, the polisher is very sensitive to curved panels. Maybe there's a reason they didn't put a larger motor? I don't know.

However, even though the LHR21 has the same motor as the LHR15, it will be less prone to stop rotating. There's 2.5 ounces more counterbalance weight, plus the larger stroke, creates more momentum. However, IME, even though it's not as bad, the LHR21 is still sensitive to curved panels.

 

[ww2717]

Could using the rupes pads with the lhr21 or lhr15 make a difference with buffing on curved surfaces. I have not tried the rupes made pads yet. i have gotten excellent results with lake country foams and another ompanies brand of foam padsl

 

[sproketser]

I'm just getting all of them...

That woulkd be great man ! lol

 

[68bowtie]

Will it spin on 5-6 with 15lbs. of pressure?Feed back please

Why would you want or need that much pressure. PPL need to realize the rupes doesn;t need much pressure on it not like the griots or flex. Put the washer mod on and you would have to put a lot of pressure on it to stop it even on 5 or 6. If you need to put that much pressure on the rupes your not using it right.

 

[CDS]

I'm in the market for a good used 3401 also.......Charles

 

[cardaddy]

I'm in the market for a good used 3401 also.......Charles

As am I.

Think I found one locally. If the guy will respond to email that is.

 

[Rsurfer]

Why would you want or need that much pressure. PPL need to realize the rupes doesn;t need much pressure on it not like the griots or flex. Put the washer mod on and you would have to put a lot of pressure on it to stop it even on 5 or 6. If you need to put that much pressure on the rupes your not using it right.

If it doesn't need pressure why do you need to use a mod washer? You would think the Rupes Engineers know better.

 

[ww2717]

I would like to see a mechanical and electronic evaluation of the rupes lhr21 and lhr15 by the autogeek engineering department.

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