sicklyscott
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- Apr 20, 2015
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Pressing my luck....
2 years with Opti-coat - not very happy
- Thread starter sicklyscott
- Start date
Pressing my luck....
zmcgovern45
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- Sep 5, 2012
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Just going to chime in here briefly as this response can cause chaos depending on the readers, but here goes......
The idea that beading = protection is something that has become engrained in most people's minds. The reality of the matter is that beading is simply a result of high surface tension which causes water to bead and sheet away from the surface. There are many, many products that will lower surface tension due to included surfactants in the product. To quote an online source, "Surfactants are compounds that lower the surface tension between two liquids or between a liquid and a solid. Surfactants may act as detergents, wetting agents, emulsifiers, foaming agents, and dispersants."
Products like shampoos, all purpose cleaners, Eraser, etc. contain surfactants, and can effect the hydrophobic properties of the surface they are being used on... or perhaps even stop beading on the surface all together. The easiest thing for most people to do at this point is to just assume the protection is gone and to add a new layer of wax or sealant. The reality is that there is no way to tell that the layer of protection is actually gone, but since people have associated beading/sheeting with protection, they just assume it is gone when the beading stops.
Coatings are unique in that they contain specific compounds (like SiO2 or SiC) that bond to each other at an atomic level. The particles create covalent bonds which in turn leads to a solid crystallized layer that is very strongly bonded to itself as well as the substrate.
To quote a bit of research regarding covalent bonding specifically in Silicon Dioxide (silica)... "These are giant molecular lattice structures. This implies that strong covalent bonding holds their atoms together in a highly regular extended network. The bonding between the atoms goes on and on in three dimensions. Melting requires the separation of the species comprising the soild state, and boiling the separation of the species comprising the liquid state. Because of the large amount of energy needed to break huge numbers of covalent bonds, all giant covalent network structures have high melting points and boiling points and are insoluble in water."
These covalent bonds do not simply break down over time without help, energy is required to destroy them. They are, for lack of a better term, permanent (yes, I said the trigger word... don't get frazzled, stay with me for a little while longer). For this reason, I'd go as far as to say that if you place a coated vehicle in a museum and never touched again, the coating would be in tact forever.
In most practical applications, I would assume that it is safe to say that coatings must be abraded to be completely removed. If I had to guess, the reason most brands have shied away from the word permanent is that through normal use, your vehicle will be subjected to a variety of harsh chemicals and grime that will definitely have an effect on the coating - more specifically the hydrophobic properties of the coating, and as we talked about above, most people will assume the coating has "failed" once these surface properties have been disrupted. Also, most vehicles will greatly benefit from a polishing process every couple of years as surface defects are inflicted, therefore the coating would be removed or degraded from polishing.
So - to summarize, all of this is my own personal opinion. I am not a chemist, but I believe beading/sheeting is not a true indication that a coating is no longer present. The chemistry behind how coatings work is far more advanced, and while the surface tension may have been altered over time and therefore beading/sheeting suffers, the layer of protection may very well still be in tact. This is why there are so many great coating topper choices to quickly and easily boost the surface tension and slickness of any coating.
I've had 22ple VX Pro on the majority of my personal car for 2.5 years now, and although the beading had diminished a while ago (thanks to the harsh winters no doubt), when I test other sealants or waxes on top of it, it is incredibly clear that the bare coating (or VS1 topped area) remains MUCH cleaner throughout a week of driving. So, even though the coating doesn't bead as well as day 1 the benefits of the coating are still present (along with the awesome gloss). I will also add that I did miss one high spot during initial installation and it has not faded at all over 2.5 years indicating the very strong bond is still visibly in tact.
Hope that was informative and doesn't just create an argument. :dblthumb2:
-Zach
The idea that beading = protection is something that has become engrained in most people's minds. The reality of the matter is that beading is simply a result of high surface tension which causes water to bead and sheet away from the surface. There are many, many products that will lower surface tension due to included surfactants in the product. To quote an online source, "Surfactants are compounds that lower the surface tension between two liquids or between a liquid and a solid. Surfactants may act as detergents, wetting agents, emulsifiers, foaming agents, and dispersants."
Products like shampoos, all purpose cleaners, Eraser, etc. contain surfactants, and can effect the hydrophobic properties of the surface they are being used on... or perhaps even stop beading on the surface all together. The easiest thing for most people to do at this point is to just assume the protection is gone and to add a new layer of wax or sealant. The reality is that there is no way to tell that the layer of protection is actually gone, but since people have associated beading/sheeting with protection, they just assume it is gone when the beading stops.
Coatings are unique in that they contain specific compounds (like SiO2 or SiC) that bond to each other at an atomic level. The particles create covalent bonds which in turn leads to a solid crystallized layer that is very strongly bonded to itself as well as the substrate.
To quote a bit of research regarding covalent bonding specifically in Silicon Dioxide (silica)... "These are giant molecular lattice structures. This implies that strong covalent bonding holds their atoms together in a highly regular extended network. The bonding between the atoms goes on and on in three dimensions. Melting requires the separation of the species comprising the soild state, and boiling the separation of the species comprising the liquid state. Because of the large amount of energy needed to break huge numbers of covalent bonds, all giant covalent network structures have high melting points and boiling points and are insoluble in water."
These covalent bonds do not simply break down over time without help, energy is required to destroy them. They are, for lack of a better term, permanent (yes, I said the trigger word... don't get frazzled, stay with me for a little while longer). For this reason, I'd go as far as to say that if you place a coated vehicle in a museum and never touched again, the coating would be in tact forever.
In most practical applications, I would assume that it is safe to say that coatings must be abraded to be completely removed. If I had to guess, the reason most brands have shied away from the word permanent is that through normal use, your vehicle will be subjected to a variety of harsh chemicals and grime that will definitely have an effect on the coating - more specifically the hydrophobic properties of the coating, and as we talked about above, most people will assume the coating has "failed" once these surface properties have been disrupted. Also, most vehicles will greatly benefit from a polishing process every couple of years as surface defects are inflicted, therefore the coating would be removed or degraded from polishing.
So - to summarize, all of this is my own personal opinion. I am not a chemist, but I believe beading/sheeting is not a true indication that a coating is no longer present. The chemistry behind how coatings work is far more advanced, and while the surface tension may have been altered over time and therefore beading/sheeting suffers, the layer of protection may very well still be in tact. This is why there are so many great coating topper choices to quickly and easily boost the surface tension and slickness of any coating.
I've had 22ple VX Pro on the majority of my personal car for 2.5 years now, and although the beading had diminished a while ago (thanks to the harsh winters no doubt), when I test other sealants or waxes on top of it, it is incredibly clear that the bare coating (or VS1 topped area) remains MUCH cleaner throughout a week of driving. So, even though the coating doesn't bead as well as day 1 the benefits of the coating are still present (along with the awesome gloss). I will also add that I did miss one high spot during initial installation and it has not faded at all over 2.5 years indicating the very strong bond is still visibly in tact.
Hope that was informative and doesn't just create an argument. :dblthumb2:
-Zach
Recon 4th 502nd
New member
- Jun 7, 2015
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Hey sir,
Well something is either "Permanent" or "Forever" or it's not...there is no middle ground.
Covalent Bonds are no doubt the strongest Chemical Bonds but they are not Immune to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (2LOT) "Pillar of Science"---that is to say "EVERYTHING" will break down. My background is in Biochemistry but it makes little difference to the point...
“Another way of stating the second law then is: ‘The universe is constantly getting more disorderly!’ Viewed that way, we can see the second law all about us. We have to work hard to straighten a room, but left to itself it becomes a mess again very quickly and very easily. Even if we never enter it, it becomes dusty and musty. How difficult to maintain houses, and machinery, and our bodies in perfect working order: how easy to let them deteriorate. In fact, all we have to do is nothing, and everything deteriorates, collapses, breaks down, wears out, all by itself -- and that is what the second law is all about.”
Isaac Asimov PhD Biochemistry [Smithsonian Institute Journal, June 1970, p. 6]
And...
“If your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics, I can give you no hope; there is nothing for [your theory] but to collapse in the deepest humiliation.”
Arthur S. Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World (1930), p. 74.
Optimum is a fine company and I really like their products :xyxthumbs: but "Permanent" and "Forever" ain't happenin.
ps. Diamonds aren't forever neither
Sorry Ladies 
There's only ONE that can lay claim to "Forever"... and HE'S not of this World :dblthumb2:
Not trying to
oke: you or anyone else for the matter... Just trying to keep it real. hope it helps
Now where's my Collonite :bolt:
VP Mark
New member
- Jul 12, 2012
- 2,451
- 0
Hey sir,
Well something is either "Permanent" or "Forever" or it's not...there is no middle ground.
Covalent Bonds are no doubt the strongest Chemical Bonds but they are not Immune to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (2LOT) "Pillar of Science"---that is to say "EVERYTHING" will break down. My background is in Biochemistry but it makes little difference to the point...
“Another way of stating the second law then is: ‘The universe is constantly getting more disorderly!’ Viewed that way, we can see the second law all about us. We have to work hard to straighten a room, but left to itself it becomes a mess again very quickly and very easily. Even if we never enter it, it becomes dusty and musty. How difficult to maintain houses, and machinery, and our bodies in perfect working order: how easy to let them deteriorate. In fact, all we have to do is nothing, and everything deteriorates, collapses, breaks down, wears out, all by itself -- and that is what the second law is all about.”
Isaac Asimov PhD Biochemistry [Smithsonian Institute Journal, June 1970, p. 6]
And...
“If your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics, I can give you no hope; there is nothing for [your theory] but to collapse in the deepest humiliation.”
Arthur S. Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World (1930), p. 74.
Optimum is a fine company and I really like their products :xyxthumbs: but "Permanent" and "Forever" ain't happenin.
ps. Diamonds aren't forever neither
There's only ONE that can lay claim to "Forever"... and HE'S not of this World :dblthumb2:
Not trying to
hope it helps
Now where's my Collonite :bolt:
Are you really pulling diamonds and thermodynamics into detailing discussion? The term permanent is used just like automotive clear coat is considered "permanent" with correct care.
zmcgovern45
New member
- Sep 5, 2012
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So to come at it from another point of view.... are swirl marks permanent? Everyone here would likely say no, but for the sake of this discussion I will say, sure they are... but it depends.
If no one ever polishes the vehicle they will never be removed... but then again if someone does use an abrasive on the paint, they can be removed.
I suppose I should have clarified that I was implying that for the sake of this situation, permanent/forever could mean 'well beyond the life of a normal vehicle, or person for that matter'.
I do still stand by my theory that beading, or lack thereof, does not indicate a coating is or is not present... it is just a characteristic we have grown to associate with 'protection'.
-Zach
If no one ever polishes the vehicle they will never be removed... but then again if someone does use an abrasive on the paint, they can be removed.
I suppose I should have clarified that I was implying that for the sake of this situation, permanent/forever could mean 'well beyond the life of a normal vehicle, or person for that matter'.
I do still stand by my theory that beading, or lack thereof, does not indicate a coating is or is not present... it is just a characteristic we have grown to associate with 'protection'.
-Zach
builthatch
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- May 25, 2008
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though Dr. G might argue his chemistry is in fact more permanent because clear is susceptible to a lot of damage that Opti-Coat is not.
but here's the deal - it's about context. if you (not you, but anyone) are comparing paint coating to everything in the universe, then ok. yeah it's not permanent lol. but it's all about the context of coatings/paint, and in that context, the chemistry and testing said Opti-Coat is permanent. he changed his marketing materials to not say that anymore, if i recall correctly, but whatever...if you need abrasion and/or stripper to remove it, it's permanent imo lol.
tdekany
SELF BANNED
- May 5, 2009
- 1,052
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Every pro order you place, you will receive a handful of brochures. Just received a shipment recently, OCP says PERMANENT. Applied properly, it will not come off.
I take an Iphone video every month, but didn't do it at 10 months, which was a couple of days ago. In any case, it always looks the same
[video=youtube_share;Q_iCSiYKl_w"]Opti Coat - YouTube[/video]
I take an Iphone video every month, but didn't do it at 10 months, which was a couple of days ago. In any case, it always looks the same
[video=youtube_share;Q_iCSiYKl_w"]Opti Coat - YouTube[/video]
Recon 4th 502nd
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- Jun 7, 2015
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Are you implying it was "a tad" heavy for the venue? :laughing:
However, I was speaking more to this statement and to these terms specifically...
"These covalent bonds do not simply break down over time without help, energy is required to destroy them. They are, for lack of a better term, permanent (yes, I said the trigger word... don't get frazzled, stay with me for a little while longer). For this reason, I'd go as far as to say that if you place a coated vehicle in a museum and never touched again, the coating would be in tact forever".
Diamonds were just adding a little color to a somewhat dry subject.
Yes, and it's the root of the entire issue...Equivocating the term "Permanent".
Equivocation (Fallacy)--- The fallacy of equivocation is committed when a term is used in two or more different senses within a single argument.
Logical Fallacies Equivocation Fallacy
Notwithstanding (and viewing the subsequent comments), I may have went overboard.... I have a tendency to do that :help: I will relent sir.
John
conman1395
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- Nov 23, 2013
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God, it's like being in PHIL 156 Reason and Argument.
swanicyouth
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What's the point if the coating is still there if it's not hydrophobic?
OC may be "permanent", but IME it looses much of its hydrophobic nature of exposed to harsh chemicals or environments.
This is the only way I can explain the NUMEROUS reports of OC not beading/sheeting well after a period of time.
My experience is its lasts forever on the roof (not exposed to salt/wheel cleaners), but petered out on bumpers and wheels after a while.
So, let's assume the presence of the coating on the paint is permanent. If it's not beading / sheeting well after a while - what's the point?
OC may be "permanent", but IME it looses much of its hydrophobic nature of exposed to harsh chemicals or environments.
This is the only way I can explain the NUMEROUS reports of OC not beading/sheeting well after a period of time.
My experience is its lasts forever on the roof (not exposed to salt/wheel cleaners), but petered out on bumpers and wheels after a while.
So, let's assume the presence of the coating on the paint is permanent. If it's not beading / sheeting well after a while - what's the point?
conman1395
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Resistance to etching, ability to clean, and having a "sacrificial layer" .
swanicyouth
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I hear you and all that, but let's be real here. Nobody is going to stick with, recommend, or praise any coating unless it beads & sheets well.
Ease of cleaning to me is almost synonymous with hydrophobicity. So, I don't see anything that beads poorly cleaning easily.
conman1395
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I agree with you on that, but it's been mentioned already that coated areas lacking hydrophobicity are still easier to clean. The claim from OCP to be impervious to most bird dropping is certainly appealing to me however. So I wouldn't mind having to do a topper every now and then to keep those qualities as well as the hydrophobic properties.
AGOatemywallet
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- Jun 13, 2015
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Were you also able to measure an increase in the PTG readings after application of a coating?
I wonder after using PoliSeal...what is actually causing the paint to bead; the "revived" coating or the PoliSeal?
zmcgovern45
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- Sep 5, 2012
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The point is that your paint is still protected.
To regain hydrophobic properties, you can simply apply a spray sealant/wax quickly and easily if you wish.
In all reality, after 2-3 years most vehicles will benefit from at least a light polish to restore complete gloss and clarity, after which a new coating will need to be installed anyway. IMO this is why all other brands have completely avoided any claims past the 2-3 year mark, as the likelihood of the loss of beading/sheeting is rather high at this point, and therefore many people will wrongfully assume the coating is no longer present anyway. Just my opinion though.
To regain hydrophobic properties, you can simply apply a spray sealant/wax quickly and easily if you wish.
In all reality, after 2-3 years most vehicles will benefit from at least a light polish to restore complete gloss and clarity, after which a new coating will need to be installed anyway. IMO this is why all other brands have completely avoided any claims past the 2-3 year mark, as the likelihood of the loss of beading/sheeting is rather high at this point, and therefore many people will wrongfully assume the coating is no longer present anyway. Just my opinion though.