Any Major Differences b/t these hybrid coatings?

FUNX725 said:
Honestly...
-I really haven't approached this Coatings-topic as:
"right vs. wrong"...
-It has a lot of that proverbial: Gray-area...IMO.

As such...I must iterate:
-Thanks for your participation in what I regard as a most interesting subject
that's been opened for debate...:dblthumb2:

-And: Thanks goes to the OP, and his interest in 'Coatings', having been piqued, as well!!

:)

Bob
Click to expand...

Well if a molecule covalently bonds to paint and I said it hydrogen bonds, I would certainly call that wrong lol!

But I have to agree, this thread was full of good info (scientific info... which I like the best).

Thanks to the OP, Rob, Chris and everyone for participating. That's why I love this forum!! Im the MAN
 
ihaveacamaro said:
Van der Waals bonding are due to the ever changing slightly electrostatic bonding in molecules. I don't think a sealant based on electrostatic bonding would last very long. I believe Chris said that SiO and SiC sealant molecules use hydrogen bonding (see 2 posts down). So I'm not sure why you would think it's not applicable here?
Click to expand...

I know what Chris said and I am suggesting that the incorrect terminology has been used. The name alone is indicative - there is no hydrogen present so where is hydrogen bonding coming from?
 
Mr Megane said:
I know what Chris said and I am suggesting that the incorrect terminology has been used. The name alone is indicative - there is no hydrogen present so where is hydrogen bonding coming from?
Click to expand...

-If some Coatings are: "SiO";
-And, if these said Coatings have an ammonia (NH3)-aroma/stench emitting about them.

Then...
-Would this ammonia-provision be of any assistance in the causation of
hydrogen-bonding...intra-molecularly, or otherwise?

Also:
-I'm not sure if the hydrogen, (in the ammonia-example), is already
covalently-bonded to the nitrogen (same ammonia-example)...or not.

Please advise. Thanks.

:)

Bob
 
FUNX725 said:
-If some Coatings are: "SiO";
-And, if these said Coatings have an ammonia (NH3)-aroma/stench emitting about them.

Then...
-Would this ammonia-provision be of any assistance in the causation of
hydrogen-bonding...intra-molecularly, or otherwise?

Also:
-I'm not sure if the hydrogen, (in the ammonia-example), is already
covalently-bonded to the nitrogen (same ammonia-example)...or not.

Please advise. Thanks.

:)

Bob
Click to expand...

The ammonia is a by-product of the synthesis and cure as opposed to something which remains in the product - the fact that you smell it is a giveaway that it is being lost as opposed to forming part of the coating itself.

Anyway, this is somewhat moving beyond the scope of this forum - best get back to university if you want the details :xyxthumbs:
 
Mr Megane said:
Anyway, this is somewhat moving beyond the scope of this forum - best get back to university if you want the details :xyxthumbs:
Click to expand...
Thanks for your response...Appreciate it.

Even though I am an adherent of the adage: "Never Too Old to Learn"...
Alas & Alack: My University-days are waaayyy behind me now.


RE: The AGO Forum

-While the information (and opinions) that's been disseminated in this particular: Coatings-Thread...
May not be deemed apropos in/for everyones: "Day-to-Day Detailing"…

-I believe it is the type of information, when properly culled, that may just enable Detailers to become
more knowledgeable; and, subsequently...more professional, in their field.


Another adage I've always attempted to live by: "Don't Ever Stop Learning".

:)

Bob
 
Mr Megane said:
I know what Chris said and I am suggesting that the incorrect terminology has been used. The name alone is indicative - there is no hydrogen present so where is hydrogen bonding coming from?
Click to expand...

SiO. The O can make hydrogen bonds. Btw hydrogen is in everything organic. Cabon is the basic building block of the organic world, everything from paint to diamonds to you and I are made from carbon backbone. Carbon makes four bonds. A majority of those bonds are to hydrogen. Lots of hydrogen atoms everywhere on paint....
 
FUNX725 said:
-If some Coatings are: "SiO";
-And, if these said Coatings have an ammonia (NH3)-aroma/stench emitting about them.

Then...
-Would this ammonia-provision be of any assistance in the causation of
hydrogen-bonding...intra-molecularly, or otherwise?

Also:
-I'm not sure if the hydrogen, (in the ammonia-example), is already
covalently-bonded to the nitrogen (same ammonia-example)...or not.

Please advise. Thanks.

:)

Bob
Click to expand...

First question: agree with mr Megane

Second: Covalent bonded hydrogen to nitrogen

:)
 
FUNX725 said:
Thanks for your response...Appreciate it.

Even though I am an adherent of the adage: "Never Too Old to Learn"...
Alas & Alack: My University-days are waaayyy behind me now.


RE: The AGO Forum

-While the information (and opinions) that's been disseminated in this particular: Coatings-Thread...
May not be deemed apropos in/for everyones: "Day-to-Day Detailing"…

-I believe it is the type of information, when properly culled, that may just enable Detailers to become
more knowledgeable; and, subsequently...more professional, in their field.


Another adage I've always attempted to live by: "Don't Ever Stop Learning".

:)

Bob
Click to expand...

Also agree here. Nothing is beyond the scope of this forum if it applies to detailing cars. The science behind the products are important as well and I too, Bob, would like to keep learning about it.

:props:
 
Man has this thread been an interesting read, excellent info in here as well.:props:

I'm loving how scientific you guys are getting into it, understanding it is probably one reason for that. :laughing:

Alright, since I guess the autopia link isn't allowed, google this (Chemical) Bonding of Polymers etc.
 
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ihaveacamaro said:
SiO. The O can make hydrogen bonds. Btw hydrogen is in everything organic. Cabon is the basic building block of the organic world, everything from paint to diamonds to you and I are made from carbon backbone. Carbon makes four bonds. A majority of those bonds are to hydrogen. Lots of hydrogen atoms everywhere on paint....
Click to expand...

Oxygen can form hydrogen bonds... if it is attached to hydrogen. Hydrogen bonding is highly dependent on the electronegativity of the participating species. Yes there will be hydrogen on the surface (but there won't be within the coating if it is what it claims). But even then you are perhaps talking about an O-H bond on the surface (highly electronegative O, OK for H-bonding) combining with an Si-O bond in the coating. The electronegativity of the latter does not add up. The electron cloud just will not be delocalised adequately to yield an H-bond.

Whilst it is nice to say that nothing should be beyond the realms of this forum I have to point out that the layman's description of H-bonding has failed to be either believed or understood... trying to go into more and more detail is likely to make matters worse because the closer you get to quantum descriptions, the LESS logical the theory becomes.

I will sign off on this topic because I am disinclined towards a pointless argument.
 
Mr Megane said:
I have to point out that the layman's description of H-bonding has failed to be either believed or understood...

I will sign off on this topic because I am disinclined towards a pointless argument.
Click to expand...
-I am indeed: Disappointed to hear these sentiments.

(And...Even though a layman, I may be):

-From your responses/contributions...
-I was starting to sense a semblence of electrostatically charged atmospheric hydrogen...
and its potential of interjecting energy into this thread's discussion.


But, wouldn't you know...
-Just as there are those interatomic forces that cause attraction and repelling...

Seemingly, then...
The rift you have so eloquently described, is as though the laws that govern those
forces, has met with the same dynamics that are responsible for Coulombic decay.


To be sure, though:
Thanks for all the contributions in regards to the OP's "Coatings-thread".

Good Day.

Bob
 
Mr Megane said:
Oxygen can form hydrogen bonds... if it is attached to hydrogen. Hydrogen bonding is highly dependent on the electronegativity of the participating species. Yes there will be hydrogen on the surface (but there won't be within the coating if it is what it claims). But even then you are perhaps talking about an O-H bond on the surface (highly electronegative O, OK for H-bonding) combining with an Si-O bond in the coating. The electronegativity of the latter does not add up. The electron cloud just will not be delocalised adequately to yield an H-bond.
Click to expand...

Oh... you're right. I have to concede this point, and at this point I would like to see if Chris or Rob can say anything about this.

As far as arguing, I didn't think we were :dblthumb2:
 
This topic is making me remember when I was studying to take some exams to join the engineering university.... Organic chemistry is kind tiresome but is pretty cool too...

Although things seemed to get a little off hand here, it sure brought a great insight from great products.

@Chris, I've read the pdf on hardness and chemical resistance from opticoat and by that methodology it took 1.1kgf to scratch opticoat..... Do you have any data to provide comparing these results with others materials like glass, regular clearcoat or something else ?

I love opticoat, just yesterday I saw a car from a friend of mine which I polished and applied opticoat about 5 months ago... It stays out 24/7 And I was already thinking it was pretty trashed as my friend really doesn't take any care of it... It must had been 2 months since he last washed it.... Its a black car... But seeing it yesterday, washed.... I was wowed on how great it still looks, still like new.
By far from all cars I've worked on, the ones with opticoat are the best looking months after the detail job. The opticoated ones and mine which is very well cared by me and might also get opticoated soon.....
 
DaC said:
@Chris, I've read the pdf on hardness and chemical resistance from opticoat and by that methodology it took 1.1kgf to scratch opticoat..... Do you have any data to provide comparing these results with others materials like glass, regular clearcoat or something else ?
Click to expand...

On the surface :D...According to this pdf:
-It sure doesn't seem to take a lot force and pressure to scratch OC:
1.1kgf= ~ 2.5 lbs/force (converted from SI-units)

-Comparison between kgf/Mohs hardness :dunno: :confused::
Opti-Coatings are stated to start out ~ 6-7 hardness on the Mohs-scales,
increasing to 9 Mohs-scale hardness over time, and being subjected to 'heat'...

Also...and since I haven't seen this pdf...I wonder:
-If this pdf's methology was done according to any of ASTM's:
Scratch Resistance Testing methods for polymeric Coatings.
-Are they the same testing methods
-If not...Are there any differences between testing methods.
-Which "scratch-tests" did OPT utilize.


But...Like you mentioned:
-Chris@Optimum/{Dr. G}...


BTW:@DaC
Nice web-site!!

:)

Bob
 
FUNX725 said:
On the surface :D...According to this pdf:
-It sure doesn't seem to take a lot force and pressure to scratch OC:
1.1kgf= ~ 2.5 lbs/force (converted from SI-units)

-Comparison between kgf/Mohs hardness :dunno: :confused::
Opti-Coatings are stated to start out ~ 6-7 hardness on the Mohs-scales,
increasing to 9 Mohs-scale hardness over time, and being subjected to 'heat'...

Also...and since I haven't seen this pdf...I wonder:
-If this pdf's methology was done according to any of ASTM's:
Scratch Resistance Testing methods for polymeric Coatings.
-Are they the same testing methods
-If not...Are there any differences between testing methods.
-Which "scratch-tests" did OPT utilize.
Click to expand...

Here is the link to it: http://www.optimumcarcare.com.au/XC3166CoatingTesting.pdf
it's not ASTM, it's some Australian standard but I can't say if this is the same method from ASTM.
At least here in Brazil, we have the ABNT, which seems to copy much of its stuff from ASTM.
The test procedure is explained on the pdf.

BTW 9 Mohs is pretty impressive if it really means that.

BTW:@DaC
Nice web-site!!

:)

Bob
Click to expand...

Thank you Bob! I'm glad you liked it! :dblthumb2:


Diego
 
DaC said:
Here is the link to it: http://www.optimumcarcare.com.au/XC3166CoatingTesting.pdf
it's not ASTM, it's some Australian standard but I can't say if this is the same method from ASTM.
At least here in Brazil, we have the ABNT, which seems to copy much of its stuff from ASTM.
Diego
Click to expand...
Thanks for the link Diego...Interesting read.

-Besides using SI's metric defining system...

It appears that...
-Due to their own governmental regulatory-commissions, many Countries have their own testing-standards':
Naming System...with "acronyms"

-Your Country's ABNT:
Associação Brasileira de Normas Técnicas...Is a new one for me. Thanks for providing it!

Now...
-The closest similar standard to the above pdf's: Australian (AS) 1580...
...That I can find is: British Standard (BS) 381C

Don't know if the...
-American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM)...D7027-05e-1:
"Standard Test Method for Evaluation of Scratch Resistance of Polymeric Coatings and Plastics
Using an Instrumented Scratch Machine"

Or even if... ASTM D7187-10:
"Standard Test Method for Measuring Mechanistic Aspects of
Scratch/Mar Behavior of Paint Coatings by Nanoscratching"

...Is exactly the same as the AS/BS tests;
or, if OPT used these particular ASTM's.


But I'm sure that Optimum goes by whatever testing-standards that is required of them
when doing Business in any given Country.

-(IMO)...
This seems to be part of OPT's organizational-culture: To care about others' Cultures.

:)

Bob
 
Will Opti-coat adhere to single stage paint? No clear coat.
 
Having all of this technical info and members that understand what it means is great. But in the end I think the average member only wants to know does any given product do what it claims and is it for them. When I place a product on a car and it performs the task that I purchased it for then IMO it's a winner. If not then I move on to another. Thanks to all of those that have explained the tech side of the OP's original question.
 
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