Beginning Clearcoat Failure

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Beginning Clearcoat Failure

Here is the best example I've been able to find that shows beginning clear coat failure, it's from a thread I created on MeguiarsOnline called the The Clearcoat Failure Photo Archive


2600_8_30_06OG003.JPG




Since I have not been able to find a similar car with the beginning of clear coat failure to photograph for the AG forum, and because this is a very useful picture for helping people diagnose what type of problem they're having with their car's clear coat I've added to the Clearcoat Failure Photo Gallery Archive here on AG but have given proper credit to where I obtained the photograph.

Due credit where due credit is due.... which more people would do this...


On AutogeekOnline.com

The Clearcoat Failure Photo Gallery Archive


:)
 
I have recently worked on a couple of late model 528i BMWs that both showed beginning - advanced clear coat failure. In the case of each the roof & rear bumpers were the first to go. Model years 1997 (Indigo Red) & 2000 (Jet Black). It's that era of production times that I tend to see the most clear coat failures.

Obviously things have gotten better over the past 10 years or so as I have also recently worked on vehicles that had NEVER received a wax & are pushing the 7-8 year new mark ........... next time I'll snap some pics of the failed clear coat.
 
next time I'll snap some pics of the failed clear coat.


That would be great, I have not built up the photo gallery for the Clear Coat Failure Archive as much as I should have by now...

It's easy to find extreme clear coat failure, it's hard to get pictures of when it's just starting and it usually needs to be a dark color or black to capture.

:xyxthumbs:
 
I really, really hate to be able to say this, but I'll take a couple photo's of my car tomorrow (if I have time before I leave for work) So you'll have an example of the very incipient stage of it, a early stage, medium, and full-blown. Unfortunately, I've got it all. :(

I can wax it (and do) as much as I want, but the best wax in the world can't stop a defect that's been present since before the car was made, and under the clearcoat too.
 
I have a small spot on my roof where I think clearcoat failure is just starting. Which is weird because I always keep my car clean and waxed. It's been there probably 4 - 6 weeks or so, and hasn't changed. Kinda weird. I'll try to get a picture tomorrow if I can. Looks like a trip to the body shop is in order. :cry:
 
Sorry for the delay Mike, but here you are:

100_0211.jpg
100_0214.jpg
100_0215.jpg
100_0216.jpg


There is one more (which is the shot I wanted to get you) which didn't turn out so well, since it is later in the afternoon, it's really gotta be done around noon for it to reveal itself. I'll try for that easily next week. It hasn't begun to turn white yet, but you can see where the affected clear is slightly "darker" than the rest, and the clear up top is just ever so slightly cloudy.
 
I have a small spot on my roof where I think clearcoat failure is just starting. Which is weird because I always keep my car clean and waxed. It's been there probably 4 - 6 weeks or so, and hasn't changed. Kinda weird. I'll try to get a picture tomorrow if I can. Looks like a trip to the body shop is in order. :cry:

Can you tell me if this is the beginning of clear coat failure? Is this something I should be concerned about? What do you think I should do about it?



Personally, I think I've just loved the paint right off my car. :o
 
Unfortunately, yes, it's begun to fail. The only thing you can do is repaint the panel, or the whole car.

I know what you mean about loving the paint off the car...
 
while we are on the subject, Honda seems to have an issue with their dark blues. They had some issues on 2nd generation odysseys, 3rd gen odysseys (where you could actually blow the paint off with a compressor stream of air) and i can personally speak of issues with 8th generation civics. my wife's 2007 si sedan in fiji blue pearl has the clear failing on the roof in two spots - it's starting to haze/craze in a big patch in front of the sunroof and a smaller patch, about 3" across, near the rear window upper edge. Her car has about 65k on it (had it since new) and i called the dealer about it. they said they would call me when the rep came by but they never did. i haven't pursued it because frankly i'm so unhappy with the quality of hondas now i'll probably leave it alone until she trades it in to our broker and he can deal with it.
 
Can you tell me if this is the beginning of clear coat failure? Is this something I should be concerned about? What do you think I should do about it?



Personally, I think I've just loved the paint right off my car. :o

Uh oh. That doesn't bode well..
 
the good thing is usually it occurs on upper surfaces that are flat. obviously, this is because they take the most beating from the sun and atmosphere, and being horizontal allow things to sit and attack the paint. if it's a hood or trunk, it is an isolated piece and doesn't have to be blended as long as you have a competent pro handling the paint system. roofs are a different story for some cars since the c pillar can run down into the rear quarter. this isn't always true, of course, as many cars have roof moldings that make the roof essentially an isolated square, with a window molding to the front, a window molding to the rear, and a roof molding on each side.
 
Mike - in talking about clear coat failure - is there any way to prevent it?Do the various high quality waxes and sealants we discuss here stave off the failure or are we only prolonging the inevitable?

I have a Honda in perfect shape after 3 years but feel it might be like cancer in a family's genes - am I predisposed to get it later on? I'm keeping this car....
 
Hi Mike,

I would like to contribute to this thread. What do you think of these pictures?

1370Original_Condition_4-med.JPG


1370Original_Condition_5-med.JPG


The pictures look similar to the Saturn you posted in your original post. At the time I polished the car, it took 3 section passes to clear it up with M83. When I saw the car a year later, the CC eventually failed - it was peeling.

Would you consider this the beginning of CC failure?

Original Thread:
What do you guys think about this one? (Results are in!)
 
Mike - in talking about clear coat failure - is there any way to prevent it?


There's only three people that I've ever spoken to that are knowledgeable about clear coat paint technology and what causes them to fail, these would be,

  1. Dr. David Ghodoussi
  2. Claude Sevigny
  3. Prefers to remain anonymous



The primary causes of clear coat failure are,

  1. Exposure to UV light, the closer to the sun the more damaging the effects, this means geographical locations nearest the equator.

  2. Too thin of a top coat - Top Coat = the clear layer of paint.

  3. Neglect and extreme neglect of the top coat.

  4. Using harsh chemicals and incorrectly using abrasive products.

  5. Swirled and scratched paint - Swirls and scratches in the paint open the paint up allowing corrosive elements to more easily deteriorate the paint faster.



You can only control a few of the above factors so do the best you can with what you do have control over.


When it comes to item #2, I spoke with Dr. David Ghodoussi about this and he shared some VERY INTERESTING information.

First, some of you probably don't know this but Dr. G as a part of his work background has worked for a number of Paint Manufacturers. These would be the paint companies that provide paint for the OEM and Refinishing industries.

He told me when he was working on creating clearcoat paint technology, this would be back in either the late 1970s or into the 1980s, they of course did TESTING. They found that less than 2 mils of clear paint over the basecoat would lead to pre-mature paint failure.

Simply put, with less than 2 mils of clear, there wouldn't be enough paint overall to hold-up over time. It's simply not enough "substance" to withstand exposure to sun rays and the elements.

They found that at least 2 mils were needed to provide enough substance to create the final matrix of paint, that is the e-coat, primer, basecoat and clearcoat - that this amount of film build could and would hold up to the elements.


THIS IS WHY CARS GET AT LEAST 2 mils OF CLEARCOAT AT THE FACTORY. NO MORE. NO LESS



Now I'm not an expert at car manufacturing, but I know that to spray MORE PAINT on a GRAND SCALE (that's what car manufacturing plants do, build cars on a huge scale), that spraying more paint means more gallons or tons of paint being sprayed and this equates to more money and also more time for the paint application process.

So my educated guess is, car manufactures could spray more paint but they don't, the spray "enough" paint for the paint to hold up for normal wear-n-tear and that's it.

Paint the car and send it on down the line for further assembly.

This is why it's safe to say, when it comes to the factory finish on a modern car, the clear layer of paint is approximately 2 mils. It might be more... hopefully not less. But when we the detailing community work on our own cars or someone else's car, we should be knowledgeable about the thin aspect of factory paint and this is the reason for the sage advice,

Use the least aggressive product to get the job done



Now this is totally different when you go to your local body shop and get a CUSTOM paint job. If you're getting your favorite toy painted with a custom paint job, the painter will tend to spray a thicker layer of paint than you'll get with an OEM finish.



The only rant anyone ever sees me go on is when I rant about car manufactures not putting more clear paint on their cars at the factory level.

In a perfect world, at least companies like Ford, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Nissan, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, etc. should provide their customers the option to order their car with an extra coat or two of clear paint instead of the cover coats that are the industry norm.



Do the various high quality waxes and sealants we discuss here stave off the failure or are we only prolonging the inevitable?

Nothing outside of a garage or carport will block 100 percent of everything that will attack your car. If you're into vinyl wraps that would be a way to protect the paint but you wouldn't actually see the paint.

Dr. David Ghodoussi has a product called Optimum Car Wax which uses a patented UV protection ingredient and process that offers the same UV protection as the UV protection ingredients used in the actual clear layer of paint on your car.

Plus, while I know most people think a spray on wax is a glorified spray detailer, this particular wax really does leave the UV protection ingredients on the surface.

If the ingredients were part of a traditional paste wax or liquid wax, when you wiped off the excess residue you would wipe off the protection ingredients.

Could type more on this by have other projects to get back to.

OPTCarWaxUVP.jpg



Oh yeah... I think I touch on the above on one of our upcoming TV show episodes... not deep but I do use and show the OPT Car Wax.


:)
 
1370Original_Condition_5-med.JPG


The pictures look similar to the Saturn you posted in your original post. At the time I polished the car, it took 3 section passes to clear it up with M83. When I saw the car a year later, the CC eventually failed - it was peeling.

Would you consider this the beginning of CC failure?


Yes. The hazy appearance and the way it's starting to take on a opaque look are signs of beginning clear coat failure.


Thanks for adding this to the thread.


:xyxthumbs:
 
Note the chemist that makes Optimum products also worked on creating the resin technology for modern clear coat paints.


Optimum Polymer Technologies



Dr. David Ghodoussi - PhD Organic chemist
Dr_G.jpg



:xyxthumbs:
 
I had a customer call me, asking if I would wets and the clear off of the car and polish the color. I thought it was a prank at first, I politely declined.
 
Here's a few photo's of a dark blue Buick Regal GS having the beginning stages of clear coat failure. Feel free to use these any time you like, Mike.

Top right, rear, near the top of the back window.

800_Clear_Coat_Failure_01.jpg



800_Clear_Coat_Failure_02.jpg
 
Here's a few photo's of a dark blue Buick Regal GS having the beginning stages of clear coat failure. Feel free to use these any time you like, Mike.

Top right, rear, near the top of the back window.


Thank you sir!


My neighbor's black Corvette sits in full-on Florida sunshine and the black paint is turning white. Next it will start flaking off.

I'll take a few pictures for posterity.


:)
 
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