Can this be fixed?
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olenderc
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- Dec 16, 2012
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I think for your particular situation, you should let a professional get your paint back in shape and then hopefully they can educate you a little on how to properly maintain it.
Like someone else said, by the time you buy all the products you need you'll have spent close to what you would need to have a professional do it. Only, in your case, you don't have sufficient experience, knowledge or background on how to do it properly.
Before I detailed my first (my own) car, I spent around 12 months researching everything possible on here. Read, read, and read some more. You can never have too much knowledge. Even now, compared to most experienced detailers on here, I know next to nothing.
Also, Setec suggested your car might be rather expensive-looking? Do yourself and your car a favor and spend a little extra to help protect your investment. If you can spend "x" amount of dollars on purchasing your car, the cost of a professional detail shouldn't be breaking the bank.
Probably not the answers you were looking for. You're probably hoping its something you can quickly fix with some cheap Harbor Freight polisher, but it likely won't turn out how you want it to. I hate to be brash, but seeing as how you approached "fixing" your car so carelessly, I don't believe you would be the appropriate candidate to restore it to perfection. Save yourself the time and trouble and just have someone else do it for you.
Like someone else said, by the time you buy all the products you need you'll have spent close to what you would need to have a professional do it. Only, in your case, you don't have sufficient experience, knowledge or background on how to do it properly.
Before I detailed my first (my own) car, I spent around 12 months researching everything possible on here. Read, read, and read some more. You can never have too much knowledge. Even now, compared to most experienced detailers on here, I know next to nothing.
Also, Setec suggested your car might be rather expensive-looking? Do yourself and your car a favor and spend a little extra to help protect your investment. If you can spend "x" amount of dollars on purchasing your car, the cost of a professional detail shouldn't be breaking the bank.
Probably not the answers you were looking for. You're probably hoping its something you can quickly fix with some cheap Harbor Freight polisher, but it likely won't turn out how you want it to. I hate to be brash, but seeing as how you approached "fixing" your car so carelessly, I don't believe you would be the appropriate candidate to restore it to perfection. Save yourself the time and trouble and just have someone else do it for you.
Marius@F40
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- Apr 23, 2014
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:cheers:
Mike Phillips
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- Dec 5, 2022
- 51,004
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I read this thread over the weekend an noticed in the pictures the car the OP posted is a BMW.
Made me think of this...
The factory sprayed clear layer of paint on most new cars averages around 2 mils. That's thinner than the average post-it note.
It was nice to see our forum members chime in with so much helpful information to try to help this person out.
:xyxthumbs:
Made me think of this...
The factory sprayed clear layer of paint on most new cars averages around 2 mils. That's thinner than the average post-it note.
It was nice to see our forum members chime in with so much helpful information to try to help this person out.
:xyxthumbs:
GenesisCoupe
New member
- Mar 3, 2013
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The OP came by yesterday...
I read the paint with my thickness gauge and read anywhere from 4.5-5.9 MIL's even though the car has been wet sanded.
The car was hazy due to the 3m rubbing compound, the trim was stained as well.
I first tried my Flex 3401 with LC orange pad and Sonax Perfect Finish. This helped a lot but there were several large rids left in the paint.
I then tried M205 on a LC white polishing pad, and that made the hazyness go away and bring back the shine to the car. Swirls and minor scratches dissapeared but the rids stayed.
I could have gone Yellow heavy cutting on M105, then M205 on organge/white, even wool pad but did not want to take too much clear off.
I showed the OP Chemical Guys Blacklight and that made the paint look even better.
He was advised to trade in his Harbor freight rotary for their DA (or get a PC), buy orange pads, M205, and CG Blacklight. APC and small brush for trim.
The car can look at least 50% better if he does it himself. As far as the deep rids go, he would need hire a professional to do as it is not something i recommend he tries himself.
I read the paint with my thickness gauge and read anywhere from 4.5-5.9 MIL's even though the car has been wet sanded.
The car was hazy due to the 3m rubbing compound, the trim was stained as well.
I first tried my Flex 3401 with LC orange pad and Sonax Perfect Finish. This helped a lot but there were several large rids left in the paint.
I then tried M205 on a LC white polishing pad, and that made the hazyness go away and bring back the shine to the car. Swirls and minor scratches dissapeared but the rids stayed.
I could have gone Yellow heavy cutting on M105, then M205 on organge/white, even wool pad but did not want to take too much clear off.
I showed the OP Chemical Guys Blacklight and that made the paint look even better.
He was advised to trade in his Harbor freight rotary for their DA (or get a PC), buy orange pads, M205, and CG Blacklight. APC and small brush for trim.
The car can look at least 50% better if he does it himself. As far as the deep rids go, he would need hire a professional to do as it is not something i recommend he tries himself.
Mike Phillips
Active member
- Dec 5, 2022
- 51,004
- 7
Just to clarify...
Are these scratches you're seeing RIDS or Random Isolated Deeper Scratches
OR
Sanding marks leftover from him wetsanding the paint which would be Tracers, not RIDS.
Either way, it was very nice of you to diagnose the paint then do some testing and I'm confident you also included some teaching for the owner of this black BMW.
:dblthumb2:
GenesisCoupe
New member
- Mar 3, 2013
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^^ Now that you mention it Mike, it reminded me of your book. They are not RIDS but indeed Tracers. And they are deep into the paint. I've never had to deal with a car where they were so deep.
Any suggestions for the OP ?
Any suggestions for the OP ?
RevitalizeAutoSpa
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- Apr 23, 2014
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Don't expect miracles. With as much clear as probably got burned through already I wouldn't want to go beyond what you already did.
Mike Phillips
Active member
- Dec 5, 2022
- 51,004
- 7
The top three types of defects to ever have to remove, (not in order)
Type II Water Spots
Tracers
Pigtails
The best suggestions were already posted to this thread and it's self-education via reading and thus getting knowledge before doing things like wet sanding factory thin and factory baked-on paint.
Too thin of a clear layer of paint leads to clearcoat failure.
The Clearcoat Failure Photo Gallery Archive
Ouch....
Mike Phillips
Active member
- Dec 5, 2022
- 51,004
- 7
Lots of confusion in the world over the topic of wetsanding. I did my best to try to clear up this confusion with this article....
Wetsanding - Fresh Paint vs Factory Paint
Ever since discussion forums starting popping up on the Internet there's always been a fair amount of interest in the topic of wet-sanding either on detailing forums or forums dedicated to a particular type of car, for example Corvettforum.com, a site dedicated to Corvettes.
And as with most topics there's a certain amount of confusion in general about the process, so here's just a tidbit on the topic of wet-sanding that I don't see addressed in a lot of threads on this topic.
Here's the skinny...
The majority of all wet-sanding is performed on fresh paint, there's no hard statistic but I usually float the percentage of 90% to 95% but admit that I could be off just because of the increased interest in the topic thanks to its popularity on the myriad of different discussion forums all over the world wide web.
Regardless of the exact percentage figure, the bigger picture is that the majority of wet-sanding is performed on fresh paint, not factory baked-on paint.
Here's why fresh paint is more often sanded
Here's why factory paint is more often not sanded
Now lets look at each of these topic in a little more detail...
Fresh paint sprayed at a local body shop
Fresh paint will tend to be softer
Modern basecoat/clearcoat paints are catalyzed, that is they are chemically hardened, a simple analogy would be the way you mix a 2-part epoxy glue together and the resulting product hardens through a chemical reaction. If you've ever worked with fiberglass and polyester resin where a small amount of catalyst, (hardener), is added to the resin and the chemical reaction cause the resin to cure and harden, that's another simple analogy as to how catalyzed basecoat/clearcoat paints are hardened.
Contrast this to older style paints which were called solvent-evaporation paints in which the paints dried without the use of a catalyzing agent and instead simply dried and hardened over a longer period of time as the solvents mixed into the paint evaporated.
Even though most modern paints are chemically cured, there is still a window of time where these paint are not 100% hardened and during this window-of-time the paint is what is sometimes refereed to as still wet, not like in wet gooey paint but as in still soft enough to easily sand and buff.
There are also what are called fast drying, medium drying and slow drying reducers which are solvents for mixing in with the paint to give it a thinner viscosity before spraying. A painter can match their choice of reducer to speed up or slow down the drying time.
All these factors can affect paint hardness or softness in the first few days that follow after the car leaves the paint booth.
Usually, if the painters knows the car is to be wet-sanded after painting he can adjust how he mixes the paint to give the person usually called "The Painter's Helper" time to sand and buff the paint before it becomes too hard. Time of year which includes temperature and humidity can also play huge factors in drying or curing time and can be factored in and adjusted for.
Now here's what's key about this, sanding paint is always easy whether the paint is fresh or baked-on at the factory, in simple terms, (very simple terms for the purpose of explanation), sanding paint is putting scratches into the paint.
Again... sanding paint is easy, it's the part where you try to remove your sanding marks that can be difficult. The harder the paint the more difficult it will be to buff out your sanding marks. The softer the paint the easier it will be to remove your sanding marks.
Fresh paint will tend to be thicker
At the body shop level, again if the painter knows the car is to be sanded and buffed, they'll usually add an extra coat or more of paint, this gives the painter's helper a little more wiggle room to sand and buff and not worry about sanding or buffing through the clear coat and exposing the basecoat.
I've also met painters that will just spray a thicker or heavier coat and only spray 2 coats of paint but through factors they can control they can spray it on thicker and therefore not have to spray a third or fourth coat.
Fresh paint will be sprayed on custom projects with more planning and higher expectations.
If you're having a custom car project painted, for example you spent months and more than likely years rebuilding a classic Mustang and now it's time to get it painted, in most cases you'll be meeting with the painter ahead of time planning out the paint job and it's at this time you discuss with them your expectations. If you want the car sanded flat and then buffed to a high gloss for a true show car finish, (if this is you goal or expectation), then the painter will spray an extra coat or two of paint to provide plenty of film-build for the painter's helper to safely sand the paint flat. They will also build in the cost of the extra materials, (clear paint), time and labor to your bill.
Summery
Fresh paint sprayed at your local body shop, specifically the clear layer, will tend to be thicker than the clear layer that comes from the factory and it will tend to be softer and easier to sand and buff shortly after the car comes out of the paint booth. Because it's thicker there is a little more safety margin or wiggle-room for the person to sand and buff the paint and not break-through the clear layer and expose the basecoat. Because the paint is fresh it's going to be softer than factory baked-on paint, at least for a window of time and this will make buffing out the sanding marks faster and easier.
Factory baked-on paint
Factory paint will be harder
The original paint sprayed onto your car as it traveled down the assembly line at the manufacturer's plant is in most cases baked-on at high temperatures before any wiring or the interior is installed and for this reason higher temperatures can be used since there's nothing to melt of catch on fire in or on the car yet. By the time the car pops-out the end of the assembly line the paint is fully cured and hardened. For this reason it will still be easy to sand, (that's putting scratches into the paint), but it will be more difficult to remove your sanding marks out of the paint.
Factory paint will be thinner
At the factory, the paining process is very automated and the amount of clear paint applied to the vehicle is done so in a tightly controlled manner and to very stringent specifications. You don't have the ability to ask for an extra coat of clear, or for a thicker coat of paint to be sprayed and from a materials cost point of view, it's probably safe to say that the amount of paint used to coat each car trends towards being the minimum amount, not a generous amount. Simply put, factory clear coat paints tend to be very thin compared to what you can get at your local body shop.
Summary
Factory paint will tend to be hard and thin, it will be easy to sand but more difficult to remove your sanding marks out 100%
Factory paint will be thin and if you're not really careful you'll break-through the clear layer and expose the basecoat or color coat either during the sanding process or the ensuing buffing process as both procedures remove a little paint.
The above is usually the portion that's left out of most threads on this this topic as it's discussed around the web on the various discussion forums. My theory is because it's left out of so many discussions on the topic, a lot of people don't understand the above differences in types of paint, (fresh vs factory), and that's why you'll often see someone posting that they're interested in sanding the orange peel on their factory finish till its' removed, (till the surface is flat), and then trying to remove their sanding marks, often times with a PC style polisher.
That's just my theory... but I've participated in a lot of these types of threads and when point about the differences listed above it's usually an eye-opener for those thinking about sanding their car's factory hard and thin paint.
Wetsanding - Fresh Paint vs Factory Paint
Ever since discussion forums starting popping up on the Internet there's always been a fair amount of interest in the topic of wet-sanding either on detailing forums or forums dedicated to a particular type of car, for example Corvettforum.com, a site dedicated to Corvettes.
And as with most topics there's a certain amount of confusion in general about the process, so here's just a tidbit on the topic of wet-sanding that I don't see addressed in a lot of threads on this topic.
Here's the skinny...
The majority of all wet-sanding is performed on fresh paint, there's no hard statistic but I usually float the percentage of 90% to 95% but admit that I could be off just because of the increased interest in the topic thanks to its popularity on the myriad of different discussion forums all over the world wide web.
Regardless of the exact percentage figure, the bigger picture is that the majority of wet-sanding is performed on fresh paint, not factory baked-on paint.
Here's why fresh paint is more often sanded
- Fresh paint will tend to be softer.
- Fresh paint will tend to be thicker.
- Fresh paint will be sprayed on custom projects with more planning involved and higher expectations.
Here's why factory paint is more often not sanded
- Factory paint will be harder.
- Factory paint will be thinner.
- There is little to zero discussion between the future owner and the technicians and or robots programed to spray paint.
Now lets look at each of these topic in a little more detail...
Fresh paint sprayed at a local body shop
Fresh paint will tend to be softer
Modern basecoat/clearcoat paints are catalyzed, that is they are chemically hardened, a simple analogy would be the way you mix a 2-part epoxy glue together and the resulting product hardens through a chemical reaction. If you've ever worked with fiberglass and polyester resin where a small amount of catalyst, (hardener), is added to the resin and the chemical reaction cause the resin to cure and harden, that's another simple analogy as to how catalyzed basecoat/clearcoat paints are hardened.
Contrast this to older style paints which were called solvent-evaporation paints in which the paints dried without the use of a catalyzing agent and instead simply dried and hardened over a longer period of time as the solvents mixed into the paint evaporated.
Even though most modern paints are chemically cured, there is still a window of time where these paint are not 100% hardened and during this window-of-time the paint is what is sometimes refereed to as still wet, not like in wet gooey paint but as in still soft enough to easily sand and buff.
There are also what are called fast drying, medium drying and slow drying reducers which are solvents for mixing in with the paint to give it a thinner viscosity before spraying. A painter can match their choice of reducer to speed up or slow down the drying time.
All these factors can affect paint hardness or softness in the first few days that follow after the car leaves the paint booth.
Usually, if the painters knows the car is to be wet-sanded after painting he can adjust how he mixes the paint to give the person usually called "The Painter's Helper" time to sand and buff the paint before it becomes too hard. Time of year which includes temperature and humidity can also play huge factors in drying or curing time and can be factored in and adjusted for.
Now here's what's key about this, sanding paint is always easy whether the paint is fresh or baked-on at the factory, in simple terms, (very simple terms for the purpose of explanation), sanding paint is putting scratches into the paint.
Again... sanding paint is easy, it's the part where you try to remove your sanding marks that can be difficult. The harder the paint the more difficult it will be to buff out your sanding marks. The softer the paint the easier it will be to remove your sanding marks.
Fresh paint will tend to be thicker
At the body shop level, again if the painter knows the car is to be sanded and buffed, they'll usually add an extra coat or more of paint, this gives the painter's helper a little more wiggle room to sand and buff and not worry about sanding or buffing through the clear coat and exposing the basecoat.
I've also met painters that will just spray a thicker or heavier coat and only spray 2 coats of paint but through factors they can control they can spray it on thicker and therefore not have to spray a third or fourth coat.
Fresh paint will be sprayed on custom projects with more planning and higher expectations.
If you're having a custom car project painted, for example you spent months and more than likely years rebuilding a classic Mustang and now it's time to get it painted, in most cases you'll be meeting with the painter ahead of time planning out the paint job and it's at this time you discuss with them your expectations. If you want the car sanded flat and then buffed to a high gloss for a true show car finish, (if this is you goal or expectation), then the painter will spray an extra coat or two of paint to provide plenty of film-build for the painter's helper to safely sand the paint flat. They will also build in the cost of the extra materials, (clear paint), time and labor to your bill.
Summery
Fresh paint sprayed at your local body shop, specifically the clear layer, will tend to be thicker than the clear layer that comes from the factory and it will tend to be softer and easier to sand and buff shortly after the car comes out of the paint booth. Because it's thicker there is a little more safety margin or wiggle-room for the person to sand and buff the paint and not break-through the clear layer and expose the basecoat. Because the paint is fresh it's going to be softer than factory baked-on paint, at least for a window of time and this will make buffing out the sanding marks faster and easier.
Factory baked-on paint
Factory paint will be harder
The original paint sprayed onto your car as it traveled down the assembly line at the manufacturer's plant is in most cases baked-on at high temperatures before any wiring or the interior is installed and for this reason higher temperatures can be used since there's nothing to melt of catch on fire in or on the car yet. By the time the car pops-out the end of the assembly line the paint is fully cured and hardened. For this reason it will still be easy to sand, (that's putting scratches into the paint), but it will be more difficult to remove your sanding marks out of the paint.
Factory paint will be thinner
At the factory, the paining process is very automated and the amount of clear paint applied to the vehicle is done so in a tightly controlled manner and to very stringent specifications. You don't have the ability to ask for an extra coat of clear, or for a thicker coat of paint to be sprayed and from a materials cost point of view, it's probably safe to say that the amount of paint used to coat each car trends towards being the minimum amount, not a generous amount. Simply put, factory clear coat paints tend to be very thin compared to what you can get at your local body shop.
Summary
Factory paint will tend to be hard and thin, it will be easy to sand but more difficult to remove your sanding marks out 100%
Factory paint will be thin and if you're not really careful you'll break-through the clear layer and expose the basecoat or color coat either during the sanding process or the ensuing buffing process as both procedures remove a little paint.
The above is usually the portion that's left out of most threads on this this topic as it's discussed around the web on the various discussion forums. My theory is because it's left out of so many discussions on the topic, a lot of people don't understand the above differences in types of paint, (fresh vs factory), and that's why you'll often see someone posting that they're interested in sanding the orange peel on their factory finish till its' removed, (till the surface is flat), and then trying to remove their sanding marks, often times with a PC style polisher.
That's just my theory... but I've participated in a lot of these types of threads and when point about the differences listed above it's usually an eye-opener for those thinking about sanding their car's factory hard and thin paint.
GenesisCoupe
New member
- Mar 3, 2013
- 1,920
- 0
Which is why i suggested m205 and call it a day. Any further buffing will cause too much clear to be removed.
The top three types of defects to ever have to remove, (not in order)
Type II Water Spots
Tracers
Pigtails
There were water spots too especially on the hood, there is no way they will be coming out.
After light polishing, putting a layer of Glaze will make it look better as long as the OP keeps up the maintenance.