can you use apc on wheels?

[aburgeson]

I have a customer coming tomorrow with a very neglected vehicle. I was wondering instead of using my good wheel cleaner for such awful wheels could I first use some simple green apc on the wheels followed by some scrubbing? I only ask cause apc cleaner is cheaper. I believe these are factory wheels and nothing special. Either aluminum alloy or maybe painted

 

[FFguy808]

you could go with that, but since you don't have no clue what type of wheels are those, try to use just a car shampoo and some good scrubbing, always try to use the least aggressive products first as a good practice

good luck

 

[swanicyouth]

I'm not sure what good a "good wheel cleaner" is - other to clean dirty wheels. If it doesn't clean them, it's not such a "good wheel cleaner". I would save my good stuff for the worse wheels - that seems to make sense to me, and use car soaps for well maintained wheels.

Simple Green. No.

 

[PiPUK]

Non acid wheel cleaners will often be similar to APC. In our case, the wheel cleaner would be stronger than the APC. So my view is that there is a good chance that trying APC first would be a waste of your time.

 

[lawrenceSA]

Non acid wheel cleaners will often be similar to APC. In our case, the wheel cleaner would be stronger than the APC. So my view is that there is a good chance that trying APC first would be a waste of your time.

Is my assumption that APC's are generally high alkaline correct and if so, are there any cases where using such would not be recommended (because for example it may stain the wheel e.g. bare aluminium wheels etc)?

 

[Calendyr]

I don't think it would be much help.

Garry Dean use it on wheels. But I think the cleaning comes from the detail juice he uses, not the APC.

Larry Kosilla made an audio Podcast explaining the cleaning ability of products some time ago, you can certainly find it on his website AMMO NYC | DRIVE + PROTECT The basic is this: To clean organic material such as blood, oils, food residues, sugar and so on, you want an alkaline product. APCs are alkaline.

For cleaning mineral and metals, you want an acidic product. This is why most Wheel cleaners are acidic.

So with that in mind, an APC should be very ineffective at removing brake dust and other contaminants that will be on the wheels.

If you don't want to use an acid cleaner for health reason, here would be my 2 advices.

1. Use an ONR. The technology in no rinse products make them very effective at removing all sorts of dirt. You could use a stronger concentration in the spray bottle to cover the Wheel before doing the washing with your soap water.

2. Mix your own Wheel cleaner using a safe acid such as vinegar and dawn. It won't be as effective as the stronger acids used in Wheel cleaners but you won't have any health concerns.

 

[PiPUK]

I don't think it would be much help.

Garry Dean use it on wheels. But I think the cleaning comes from the detail juice he uses, not the APC.

Larry Kosilla made an audio Podcast explaining the cleaning ability of products some time ago, you can certainly find it on his website AMMO NYC | DRIVE + PROTECT The basic is this: To clean organic material such as blood, oils, food residues, sugar and so on, you want an alkaline product. APCs are alkaline.

For cleaning mineral and metals, you want an acidic product. This is why most Wheel cleaners are acidic.

So with that in mind, an APC should be very ineffective at removing brake dust and other contaminants that will be on the wheels.

If you don't want to use an acid cleaner for health reason, here would be my 2 advices.

1. Use an ONR. The technology in no rinse products make them very effective at removing all sorts of dirt. You could use a stronger concentration in the spray bottle to cover the Wheel before doing the washing with your soap water.

2. Mix your own Wheel cleaner using a safe acid such as vinegar and dawn. It won't be as effective as the stronger acids used in Wheel cleaners but you won't have any health concerns.

Whilst you are right about how acid wheel cleaners work, that is not to say that alkaline cleaners do not. Non-acid wheel cleaners tend to be really strongly alkaline, often caustics. They DO work and the reason is simple, they are not targeting the brake dust, they are targeting what is holding the brake dust on the surface. Effectively they are dissolving the glue and the brake dust can then just wash away. A better non-acid wheel cleaner can go further than this (not many bother) and can actually react with the brake dust and dissolve it. So they can operate rather like acidic wheel cleaners, albeit through a totally different mechanism. So, alkaline products can be very effective at cleaning wheels and this is actually how many (maybe even most) 'safe' wheel cleaners work.

My experience is that ONR will only go so far. With a good wheel cleaner, even non-acid ones, you can get almost touchless results. I am afraid that ONR does not achieve this and Optimum do not make claims. On wheel, ONR needs elbow grease. Acidifying something like Dawn isn't really a great solution, such formulations are fundamentally unstable at acidic pH so you end up with a mish-mash of surfactants which should work well but will struggle to function because you have the pH wrong.

Take it from someone who makes and sells these things, alkalinity works for wheel cleaning and an APC is a perfectly acceptable stop-gap, a much stronger option than ONR or other misc homebrew.

 

[Calendyr]

Whilst you are right about how acid wheel cleaners work, that is not to say that alkaline cleaners do not. Non-acid wheel cleaners tend to be really strongly alkaline, often caustics. They DO work and the reason is simple, they are not targeting the brake dust, they are targeting what is holding the brake dust on the surface. Effectively they are dissolving the glue and the brake dust can then just wash away. A better non-acid wheel cleaner can go further than this (not many bother) and can actually react with the brake dust and dissolve it. So they can operate rather like acidic wheel cleaners, albeit through a totally different mechanism. So, alkaline products can be very effective at cleaning wheels and this is actually how many (maybe even most) 'safe' wheel cleaners work.

My experience is that ONR will only go so far. With a good wheel cleaner, even non-acid ones, you can get almost touchless results. I am afraid that ONR does not achieve this and Optimum do not make claims. On wheel, ONR needs elbow grease. Acidifying something like Dawn isn't really a great solution, such formulations are fundamentally unstable at acidic pH so you end up with a mish-mash of surfactants which should work well but will struggle to function because you have the pH wrong.

Take it from someone who makes and sells these things, alkalinity works for wheel cleaning and an APC is a perfectly acceptable stop-gap, a much stronger option than ONR or other misc homebrew.

I guess that can work. Although I am Under the impression that brake dust can imbed itself in the surface. That is why it is such a problem. The grease on wheels must be very minimal especially with the high temperature wheels can reach. I tend to think that the soap water that we use will do a good job at removing what ever grease is present. It is true that APC will be more effective but the question is: "is there enough grease there that soap water won't be able to handle?".

Are specialized acid Wheel cleaner better than APC or what ever... I am sure they are. Do I want to expose myself to them? Not really. There are threads on this forum about some of them. Meg's Wheel brightner comes to mind. When you need to wear protective clothing, a mask and safety glasses to get a Wheel clean, I think you should use something else... but that's just me.

 

[Calendyr]

Oh almost forgot. There are products like Iron-X too. I purchased some but hardly ever use it.

I tried it on a completelly rusted steel Wheel. The product turned purple like you probably have never seen. Once washed off, none of the rust was removed. That kind of made me loose faith in this product. I think it's very pretty and impressive if you want to wow a client... but I doubt it does much for actual cleaning.

But I will add APC to my Wheel cleaning process. I always clean the Wheel twice so once will be done with APC in the future.

 

[EVOlved]

Oh almost forgot. There are products like Iron-X too. I purchased some but hardly ever use it.

I tried it on a completelly rusted steel Wheel. The product turned purple like you probably have never seen. Once washed off, none of the rust was removed. That kind of made me loose faith in this product. I think it's very pretty and impressive if you want to wow a client... but I doubt it does much for actual cleaning.

But I will add APC to my Wheel cleaning process. I always clean the Wheel twice so once will be done with APC in the future.

It's not meant to remove rust from steel!! It's meant to remove embedded iron particles in and below the clear coat... Steel wheel=no clear coat.

 

[lawrenceSA]

Whilst you are right about how acid wheel cleaners work, that is not to say that alkaline cleaners do not. Non-acid wheel cleaners tend to be really strongly alkaline, often caustics. They DO work and the reason is simple, they are not targeting the brake dust, they are targeting what is holding the brake dust on the surface. Effectively they are dissolving the glue and the brake dust can then just wash away. A better non-acid wheel cleaner can go further than this (not many bother) and can actually react with the brake dust and dissolve it. So they can operate rather like acidic wheel cleaners, albeit through a totally different mechanism. So, alkaline products can be very effective at cleaning wheels and this is actually how many (maybe even most) 'safe' wheel cleaners work.

My experience is that ONR will only go so far. With a good wheel cleaner, even non-acid ones, you can get almost touchless results. I am afraid that ONR does not achieve this and Optimum do not make claims. On wheel, ONR needs elbow grease. Acidifying something like Dawn isn't really a great solution, such formulations are fundamentally unstable at acidic pH so you end up with a mish-mash of surfactants which should work well but will struggle to function because you have the pH wrong.

Take it from someone who makes and sells these things, alkalinity works for wheel cleaning and an APC is a perfectly acceptable stop-gap, a much stronger option than ONR or other misc homebrew.

Thank you both for your replies.

I was interested in finding out how 'suitable' APC would be to clean wheels because generally speaking when I detail a car, the wheels are dirty and will be subjected to a wash, followed by tar removal and iron removal (using Iron-x/Iron-out//Dragon's Breath etc)....

So my thinking was, instead of using (comparatively) expensive wheel cleaners to remove the bulk of the dirt before exposing the wheel to the iron remover (no point in using expensive iron remover to sit on top of dirty wheels) I could use APC to remove most of the dirt.

I am just curious if this would pose any problems, such as APC 'staining' certain wheel finishes

 

[Calendyr]

It's not meant to remove rust from steel!! It's meant to remove embedded iron particles in and below the clear coat... Steel wheel=no clear coat.

That's true, but still it should have a significant effect on a steel Wheel that has rust on it, yet it did nothing at all. How do you know it does anything on a mag with break dust on it? I my mind the fact it was turning purple meant that iron had gone through a strong chemical reaction and was disolved. If that was true it would do the same thing on a steel Wheel. I would love to see some proof this product does anything other than make bright purple color when used. I have no way of seeing if the brake dust is gone or disolved or anything. If you can point me to some video that proves effectiveness I will be very happy to change my opinion on this product, I have a 40$ bottle unused in my arsenal

 

[Calendyr]

Thank you both for your replies.

I was interested in finding out how 'suitable' APC would be to clean wheels because generally speaking when I detail a car, the wheels are dirty and will be subjected to a wash, followed by tar removal and iron removal (using Iron-x/Iron-out//Dragon's Breath etc)....

So my thinking was, instead of using (comparatively) expensive wheel cleaners to remove the bulk of the dirt before exposing the wheel to the iron remover (no point in using expensive iron remover to sit on top of dirty wheels) I could use APC to remove most of the dirt.

I am just curious if this would pose any problems, such as APC 'staining' certain wheel finishes

Hum... if I was to use Iron-X it would be in the first step, not the last...

Iron-X is supposed to disolve iron. The idea is to do that so when you scrub the Wheel the iron particle are not gonna scratch the finish. If you do 2 scrubbing before using it: 1) Most of the iron particle should be gone so there is no reason to use it 2) The damage from break dust is already done.

Here is how I clean Wheels right now, it will change soon in light of ideas in this thread...

1) Powerwash the well with a pressure washer to remove as much as I can without touching the Wheel.

2) Spray the tire with a degreaser or APC mixed with some dish soap and spray the rim with a vinegar and dish soap mix.

3) Wash the rim starting with the lug nut area then from top to bottom with a soft brush. I then do the Wheel drum and caliper.

4) Scrub the tire with a brush.

5) Rinse

6) Spray the tire a second time with Degreaser or APC mixed with dish soap. Spray the Wheel wells with the same solution.

7) Scrub the tire and Wheel well.

8) Wash the rim with a microfiber towel

9) Rinse everthing.


In light of recent videos I watched and this thread I am thinking about spraying the rim in the second pass with APC. Although I really like the idea of using ONR in my bucket instead of soap... will have to give this more thoughts. ONR is cheaper and I am thinking it might do a better job than soap on wheels.

Garry Dean uses ONR (well Detail juice to be precise) as his bucket wash liquid and uses his APC on both the tire and the rim. His method is faster than mine and seems to do a very good job. It takes me about 5-10 minutes to do a Wheel, so I could possibly save up to 20 minutes if I used his technique. Although the major time saving I saw in his video was the use of Wheel woolies. Those things rock! Takes no time at all to do the barrel... my tool definatelly doesn't work as well and takes a lot more time to do that area.

 

[PiPUK]

I guess that can work. Although I am Under the impression that brake dust can imbed itself in the surface. That is why it is such a problem. The grease on wheels must be very minimal especially with the high temperature wheels can reach. I tend to think that the soap water that we use will do a good job at removing what ever grease is present. It is true that APC will be more effective but the question is: "is there enough grease there that soap water won't be able to handle?".

Are specialized acid Wheel cleaner better than APC or what ever... I am sure they are. Do I want to expose myself to them? Not really. There are threads on this forum about some of them. Meg's Wheel brightner comes to mind. When you need to wear protective clothing, a mask and safety glasses to get a Wheel clean, I think you should use something else... but that's just me.

There is so much to this discussion that it is impossible to do completely. One way or other, strongly alkaline wheel cleaners work. Strongly alkaline cleaners can actually remove rust - there is a lot more scope to the formulation than simply caustic soda and surfactants. As I noted before, you can have some very interesting reactions and the alkaline wheel cleaners which we make actually work rather like Iron-X, but without the bleed - they actually capture the iron and dissolve it. Short of almost writing a course on the topic, I am afraid I have to leave it to you whether to believe my expertise or not.

Oh almost forgot. There are products like Iron-X too. I purchased some but hardly ever use it.

I tried it on a completelly rusted steel Wheel. The product turned purple like you probably have never seen. Once washed off, none of the rust was removed. That kind of made me loose faith in this product. I think it's very pretty and impressive if you want to wow a client... but I doubt it does much for actual cleaning.

But I will add APC to my Wheel cleaning process. I always clean the Wheel twice so once will be done with APC in the future.

Iron-X and similar will remove rust but they are not sledgehammers. The fact that the wheels turned purple is proof that some rust was dissolved - there is no way of the colour change without iron being dissolved. A bit like getting fat is something of a guarantee that you have eaten too much!

Thank you both for your replies.

I was interested in finding out how 'suitable' APC would be to clean wheels because generally speaking when I detail a car, the wheels are dirty and will be subjected to a wash, followed by tar removal and iron removal (using Iron-x/Iron-out//Dragon's Breath etc)....

So my thinking was, instead of using (comparatively) expensive wheel cleaners to remove the bulk of the dirt before exposing the wheel to the iron remover (no point in using expensive iron remover to sit on top of dirty wheels) I could use APC to remove most of the dirt.

I am just curious if this would pose any problems, such as APC 'staining' certain wheel finishes

Generally speaking, there should be no big concern. It is possible that you have NaOH as a big component in your APC and this could be an issue for sensitive rims (but fine on powder coat finishes) but this is still not likely to be problematic at weaker dilutions. Just do a test spot to be sure.

 

[Crispy]

Most wheels are painted. They have a "clear coat" and therefore regular paint cleaning procedures should be followed. The key is to test what kind of surface you are trying to detail. Take metal polish and rub on - if it turns black bare alloy, no colour clear coated ( could be adonized-not sure how to test for that). Break Dust is iron particles. If you want to remove them from your hood you use the same method for the wheels. Clean (soap,water,degreaser etc. - as long as it doesn't harm paint it won't hurt the wheels. Next clay them. Now you are clean and can apply whatever method you would use to restore paint (polish, sand,repaint etc.)

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Crispy, why do you keep doing this? The opening sentence of this thread was "I have a customer coming tomorrow..."

That was on July 9, 2014. I'm pretty sure the OP no longer needs help with that customer.

 

[conman1395]

Most wheels are painted. They have a "clear coat" and therefore regular paint cleaning procedures should be followed. The key is to test what kind of surface you are trying to detail. Take metal polish and rub on - if it turns black bare alloy, no colour clear coated ( could be adonized-not sure how to test for that). Break Dust is iron particles. If you want to remove them from your hood you use the same method for the wheels. Clean (soap,water,degreaser etc. - as long as it doesn't harm paint it won't hurt the wheels. Next clay them. Now you are clean and can apply whatever method you would use to restore paint (polish, sand,repaint etc.)

How on earth did you come to comment on a thread from this far ago?????