Ceramic coating real life swirl/scratch resistance

[Eldorado2k]

Coatings were hyped up as maintenance free initially then low maintenance but now seem like the highest maintenance lsp ever since the history of detailing. I see regression in that regard not progression. Toppers for coating? Toppers for the toppers? Protection for the protection for the protection?

I see the wax and sealant crowd as the smart guys recently.

*nods*

Since I coated our cars, less washing with fewer maint products involved

Less washing = prolonged periods of time for contaminants to bond to the surface. This could be the #1 reason pretty much everyone with a coating winds up with paint that fails the baggie test, even though they claim the coating is still going strong. And then they say just do a “decon wash” which isn’t able to turn rough paint back to smooth as glass because only clay decontamination can truly do that.

Another thing I’ve never understood is why some people say they use toppers to prolong the life of a coating. If the layer of coating has lost some/all of its hydrophobic abilities and you use a topper to “revive” or “extend” its life, wouldn’t you simply be dealing with the topper which could last an eternity if you were to apply it after every wash? So when is the coating officially dead? Once you decide to stop using the topper?

 

[The Guz]

I've been feeling the same way, but guz still talks into trying more coatings all the time..lol

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lol and like budget mentions it is all in fun trying various coatings out to see which is indeed an all around performer.

Gives other members the ability to choose a coating based on feedback to aid in the research process.

It’s important to understand the benefits and limitations of a coating. Life is easier once that realization is made. They are not for everyone.

But I’ll take a simple wash with no reapplication of a wax or sealant ~3 months down the road.

As you know it’s been raining here as of late and all the cars that are coated look clean. Unlike in the past when I used waxes or sealants.

By the way did you try out that Gloss Coat I sent you?

 

[Cruzscarwash]

lol and like budget mentions it is all in fun trying various coatings out to see which is indeed an all around performer.

Gives other members the ability to choose a coating based on feedback to aid in the research process.

It’s important to understand the benefits and limitations of a coating. Life is easier once that realization is made. They are not for everyone.

But I’ll take a simple wash with no reapplication of a wax or sealant ~3 months down the road.

As you know it’s been raining here as of late and all the cars that are coated look clean. Unlike in the past when I used waxes or sealants.

By the way did you try out that Gloss Coat I sent you?

I need to fix the path and then it's going on that for a 50/50 with McKees

Im going to redo the Prius with a 50/50 of fk1000p and polish angel or collinite

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[RippyD]

The coating isn’t as hard as the clear and clear swirls easily so that should clear confusion. If simple cleaner waxes remove coatings that should speak loads. I have coated and uncoated waxed or sealed cars and both marr or swirl equally. Coatings were hyped up as maintenance free initially then low maintenance but now seem like the highest maintenance lsp ever since the history of detailing. I see regression in that regard not progression. Toppers for coating? Toppers for the toppers? Protection for the protection for the protection?

I see the wax and sealant crowd as the smart guys recently.

Like Cruz I'm heading this way. Can't speak for others but in my environment it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Car doesn't stay any cleaner in the winter and the coating requires as much maintenance as the paint. Pretty hard to find the value of a coating in my environment.

 

[Cruzscarwash]

Like Cruz I'm heading this way. Can't speak for others but in my environment it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Car doesn't stay any cleaner in the winter and the coating requires as much maintenance as the paint. Pretty hard to find the value of a coating in my environment.

I'm trying, I think I'll make my final decision after this next round of testing.

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[BudgetPlan1]

*nods*



Less washing = prolonged periods of time for contaminants to bond to the surface.

I can live with that. End of my day, car looks better for longer w less effort. End of your day might be different.

Whether I can feel it with hand in baggie very rarely matters to me. Everybody has different levels of OCD with this stuff.

 

[GEM65]

the topper which could last an eternity if you were to apply it after every wash

couldn't have said it better ^^

 

[Whacky]

That hasn't been my experience at all. I found CQUK as hard as nails, much better protection, and resistance to marring-swirling than any wax, or sealant I ever used.

So how is there such a difference between experiences with coatings?
tough as nails for some, more delicate than clearcoat to others?

I presume not all are created equal, different top coats properties, different level of skill in applying, etc.

But for those like me who had an experienced professional apply only to come back and see immediately light scratches and marring under appropriate careful technique....meh.

 

[Maestro Sam]

Coatings do work and provide better scratch resistance because of the ease of hand wash. Most of my clients are returning customers to get washes after major paint correction and ceramic coating application. About all of the cars that I wash are swirl free/mar free. Keep in mind that it takes me about 1.5 to 2 hours to wash a car. Either some of you guys are inccorectly washing the car or just have a notion that after application, ceramic coating will be bullet proof and require less washes. Key in maintaining your paint is to use the properties of the ceramic coating and wash the car every week or two (before contaminants build up). I myself for each client wash rinse the car 3 times before I even mitt the vehicle. Ceramic coating does an excellent job in shedding dirt/grime from the vehicle, and provide excellent hydrophobic properties which allow me to dry the car with a leaf blower. I drive a Lexus RCF with very soft paint and I have absolutely no swirls/marring/scratches on the paint, even using a scan grip to check for defects. Some of my clients are on this forum and can attest how clean my car and their cars are.

 

[inDetail]

They are no more scratch resistant then your "scratch resistant" clear coats if anything less. You can still scratch them and induce marring with poor washing habits just like any other clear coat. They are not bomb proof they are in essence glass and glass scratches pretty easily. That's how I see it. It's just adding a few more microns of "glass" on top of your clear.

 

[SWETM]

If you do apply a top coating it's for the extreme water behavior and the slickness. The downside of it's that the scratch resistant is less since the top coating properties is what you get. So for to have the properties of a coatings scratch resistance I would not apply any top coating or even a topper. I would maintain the coating with a car schampo like carpro reset and if waterless wash or rinseless wash Ech2o or McKees 37 N-914. And if drying aid used Ech2o QD dilution. This way you have the coatings properties as much as possible and not altering it. Then be satisfied with the longevity I do get from this maintance and added decon washes to minimize the road grime build up. So if you have a scratch sensitive clearcoat I would not apply any top coating and let the coating do it's thing. If I would like to have crazy water behavior and self cleaning ability I would apply a top coating on a primer polish instead. Then reapply every year or when it's done.

 

[inDetail]

+1 Ronin. I came to the conclusion that in reality coatings are superb for the things that have always been a detailing nightmare, Trim, Rims ( Engine Bays if you a handy enough to take parts out to coat the painted panels and plastic and reinstall everything.) and I would throw glass in there as well because it's nice to have water blow right off your glass in a storm. Now we are eating up the coating upkeep products. You can't blame the companies for doing it to make money off the coating rage. When Opti-Coat first came out just wash it and top it with wax or use a QD and done.
They are coming out but they are expensive with hybrid products. Angel Wax Enigma, Fireball Fusion, Jay's Ceramic Wax, Kamikaze Infinity, Beasley's Plasma Coat, Polish Angel Master Sealant (Just a really good sealant). Then there's good old Collinite 476 and Fusso Coat. They just have to get the durability up a little more on the hybrids and some of them will give coatings a run for their money. Even right now with the high cost a lot of them compete with coatings for price per application and are much easier to apply and are more forgiving when it comes to the parameters in which they need to be applied.
Really are they any less work then a really durable wax or sealant. Maybe a little. Washing a car is washing a car, drying a car is drying a car, topping it with a QD is the same amount of time. Now washing rims and putting on trim dressing now that's some serious time savings.

 

[MarkD51]

So how is there such a difference between experiences with coatings?
tough as nails for some, more delicate than clearcoat to others?

I presume not all are created equal, different top coats properties, different level of skill in applying, etc.

But for those like me who had an experienced professional apply only to come back and see immediately light scratches and marring under appropriate careful technique....meh.

I'm not what is considered a professional, meaning I do not detail for a living, could be called a hobbyist.

But let me then ask some questions about what some seem to be experiencing, and I'll try to be as logical and scientific in my questioning, and observations.

What I seem to be reading between the lines about, is that some topper used, whether it's a same company based protectant, (let's say Carpro Reload as one of them) is applied, and then somehow after using these products the coating has now lost certain properties, and it appears by some to be considerably less protection than should be experienced-expected?

Well I can understand some properties being altered to some extent and degree, hydrophobicity, beading, or sheeting. Others might be feel and slickness.

But why is a coating's durability and immunity/resistance to marring and swirling now changing?

Is this marring/swirling only actually occuring to the very top coat and topper product, or has any or some of these topper products now negatively effected the underlying base coating itself?

Some ways of looking at it in some other words, has these toppers with their base carrier solvents or some other component now removed and cut through the coating itself, and in effect now has somewhat replaced these supposed more durable coatings?

I see mention of coatings are helping reduce such damage because the vehicle is then easier to wash. In other words contaminants aren't as likely to bond so easily. Then with that said, is that all coatings have to offer in some folk's opinion?

All I can say, and that I know, was many times after the application of Carpro CQuartz,I had noted a much harder surface, and much greater resistance to scratches and marring-swirling occuring upon a paint.

Such paint that was coated with a product like CQUK was definitely protected to a much greater degree in that fading and hazing didn't occur anywhere near as quickly as some coating players (products) that I had the displeasure of spending very good money on and fell considerably short of their said claims.

I hope my questioning is understood, but in my experience, and with a product such as CQuartz UK, I haven't seemed to notice any adverse effects of coating removal by using a few different products to top. Mar resistance and longevity IMO didn't appear to be reduced or negatively effected.

 

[Maestro Sam]

+1 Ronin. I came to the conclusion that in reality coatings are superb for the things that have always been a detailing nightmare, Trim, Rims ( Engine Bays if you a handy enough to take parts out to coat the painted panels and plastic and reinstall everything.) and I would throw glass in there as well because it's nice to have water blow right off your glass in a storm. Now we are eating up the coating upkeep products. You can't blame the companies for doing it to make money off the coating rage. When Opti-Coat first came out just wash it and top it with wax or use a QD and done.
They are coming out but they are expensive with hybrid products. Angel Wax Enigma, Fireball Fusion, Jay's Ceramic Wax, Kamikaze Infinity, Beasley's Plasma Coat, Polish Angel Master Sealant (Just a really good sealant). Then there's good old Collinite 476 and Fusso Coat. They just have to get the durability up a little more on the hybrids and some of them will give coatings a run for their money. Even right now with the high cost a lot of them compete with coatings for price per application and are much easier to apply and are more forgiving when it comes to the parameters in which they need to be applied.
Really are they any less work then a really durable wax or sealant. Maybe a little. Washing a car is washing a car, drying a car is drying a car, topping it with a QD is the same amount of time. Now washing rims and putting on trim dressing now that's some serious time savings.

I'm not what is considered a professional, meaning I do not detail for a living, could be called a hobbyist.

But let me then ask some questions about what some seem to be experiencing, and I'll try to be as logical and scientific in my questioning, and observations.

What I seem to be reading between the lines about, is that some topper used, whether it's a same company based protectant, (let's say Carpro Reload as one of them) is applied, and then somehow after using these products the coating has now lost certain properties, and it appears by some to be considerably less protection than should be experienced-expected?

Well I can understand some properties being altered to some extent and degree, hydrophobicity, beading, or sheeting. Others might be feel and slickness.

But why is a coating's durability and immunity/resistance to marring and swirling now changing?

Is this marring/swirling only actually occuring to the very top coat and topper product, or has any or some of these topper products now negatively effected the underlying base coating itself?

Some ways of looking at it in some other words, has these toppers with their base carrier solvents or some other component now removed and cut through the coating itself, and in effect now has somewhat replaced these supposed more durable coatings?

I see mention of coatings are helping reduce such damage because the vehicle is then easier to wash. In other words contaminants aren't as likely to bond so easily. Then with that said, is that all coatings have to offer in some folk's opinion?

All I can say, and that I know, was many times after the application of Carpro CQuartz,I had noted a much harder surface, and much greater resistance to scratches and marring-swirling occuring upon a paint.

Such paint that was coated with a product like CQUK was definitely protected to a much greater degree in that fading and hazing didn't occur anywhere near as quickly as some coating players (products) that I had the displeasure of spending very good money on and fell considerably short of their said claims.

I hope my questioning is understood, but in my experience, and with a product such as CQuartz UK, I haven't seemed to notice any adverse effects of coating removal by using a few different products to top. Mar resistance and longevity IMO didn't appear to be reduced or negatively effected.

I don't think these boosters like reload, cure, and etc reduce the coatings durability and immunity/resistance to marring and swirling. Some of these guys apply it without propery cleaning the vehicle, creating love marks. You are correct Mark in that ceramic coatings have no adverse effects when using different products to top. These products will be removed or dissapear overtime with subsequent exposure to the elements and wash. Most of the mar is caused by improper washing. Some of these detailers or hobbyist on the forum are still learning about these products as well.

 

[4mulafastech]

Some interesting discussion.

I’m considering having my new black Camaro professionally coated by a product called Kenzo made by IGL. This will be after a full paint correction. I am very careful with my washing techniques, but looking for any additional protection I can get to prevent marring, especially with black.

Below is a picture from a short article when Kenzo was launched at the 2015 SEMA show. Looks impressive, but is it complete BS? Seems easy enough to prove. Anyone on here have experience with Kenzo? Thanks.

 

[Ronin47]

If the coatings require toppers(short lived)to improve hydrophobic behavior and reduce water spotting what does that say about the coatings, the initial hype, the now very evident change in their initial wild claims etc of ease of maintenance,durability and water behavior? Someone’s getting very rich...

 

[Cruzscarwash]

Some interesting discussion.

I’m considering having my new black Camaro professionally coated by a product called Kenzo made by IGL. This will be after a full paint correction. I am very careful with my washing techniques, but looking for any additional protection I can get to prevent marring, especially with black.

Below is a picture from a short article when Kenzo was launched at the 2015 SEMA show. Looks impressive, but is it complete BS? Seems easy enough to prove. Anyone on here have experience with Kenzo? Thanks.

So, we can't talk about none AGO products as it's against the forums rule. I'm a IGL install and kenzo is on a completely different level then anything offered here and for good reason

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[mwoolfso]

Wondering what everyone’s experience with swirls, marking, and light scratches on their coated cars?

im asking because I just got my car coated with Gtechniq Serum Ultra followed by two coats of EXO as topcoats.
I thought this professionally only coating would be tops for protection and help prevent light swirls, etc.

However I was doing a little quick detailing of the car with CarPro Ech2o/reload mixture using one eagles edgeless to wipe down, and a second, clean eagle edgeless to do final buff. Nothing crazy there.

I noticed however in one section of the hood I had inadvertently created a very light swirl scratch with the light buff.
I was pretty shocked and kinda upset it had happened.


This detailing was done with pretty new, recently washed towels using recommended towel cleaning methods.
The buff wasn’t done with any significant force. I was genuinely surprised I had just created a light swirl.

I did not expect that my new expensive ceramic coating would be susceptible to such marking done with what I thought was pretty careful procedure.


I wanted to know if other people have experienced similar swirls or light scratchs with their coatings using good technique?

Obviously I am aware that a coating isn’t completely immune to marring, but I wouldn’t have expected it to happen so easily with what I thought was careful technique.

Anything related to the Gtechniq Crystal serum Ultra or EXO?

Thoughts?

My experience has been that they aren't any different than clear coat.

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One really, REALLY, REALLY needs to read up on these products today. The marketing is such, by manufacturer and distributors alike, to promote a sense of omnipotence to mother nature. At the end of the day, coatings make "maintenance" easier over the long-term, or the length of durability of the product (whichever comes first). Most coatings today sold in any retail/online channel are semi-permanent. Semi-anything never means "no more swirls", rather "less frequent and impactful swirls". The only permanent coating I know exists in a detailing content and post-vehicle build, is Opti-Coat, likely due to patent control.

Gtechniq EXO, for instance, doesn't mention scratch resistance at all on AGO's product description. So why expect no marring at all right after a professional detail? Simply because it is a coating? Sorry, any layer that bonds to a surface is technically called a "coating". Even wall paint is a coating, for instance. If the detailer indicated scratch resistance then that is misrepresentation and you have a case to make.

From my experience coatings do not help with swirls at all. 2 month old CQUK, washed the car 3-4 times and quite a few scratches/swirls on the hood already. I’m 99% confident in my routine and tools I use. I think regardless to how you wash swirls and scratches are inevitable.

With all due respect you can be as confident as you want, but at the end of the day our best efforts can be thwarted with the slightest of variables we cannot control.

They are no more scratch resistant then your "scratch resistant" clear coats if anything less. You can still scratch them and induce marring with poor washing habits just like any other clear coat. They are not bomb proof they are in essence glass and glass scratches pretty easily. That's how I see it. It's just adding a few more microns of "glass" on top of your clear.

Glass scratches as easy as a ceramic layer? Not my experience.

If the coatings require toppers(short lived)to improve hydrophobic behavior and reduce water spotting what does that say about the coatings, the initial hype, the now very evident change in their initial wild claims etc of ease of maintenance,durability and water behavior? Someone’s getting very rich...

I hear ya. The marketing is amazing and yet most people get sucked into the hype.

The 3 best coatings I have used and would move towards is Opti-Coat, Wolfgang's Coating, and CQuartz. I like finding products that are relatively easy to apply, but not so easy that it doesn't require "work".

In the case of Opti-Coat, nothing short of amazing. I got a syringe around the time they limited this product to certified installers. One of my vehicles is outside all of the time, and effectively washes itself in the snow or rain.

In the case of CQuartz, I have used this the least and in general I would always apply 2 coats and "somewhat" thick but level to areas where our eyes wander the most.

In the case of Wolfgang, I love this product, had it on my daughter's Elantra for 2+ years and it was awesome in terms of resistance and maintaining the gloss of the paint from my polishing step. Had a slab of wood hit the paint one time due to heavy winds and no scratches, just deep smudges that polished out quick (and then re-applied Wolfgang). In another case, someone sideswiped the vehicle, small dent with a log of smudges and some scratches. All buffed out. As I polished I could see the layer of Wolfgang come off - somewhat like your skin peeling off after a sunburn.

 

[4mulafastech]

So, we can't talk about none AGO products as it's against the forums rule. I'm a IGL install and kenzo is on a completely different level then anything offered here and for good reason

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Didn’t know that was against the rules. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[AutowerxDetailing]

Scratch resistance is more of a function of the surface tension and slickness of the surface, not the "hardness" of the coating. In my testing CarPro Reload (even without a coating under it) actually has the best "scratch resistance" out of any product I've tried... yet, I've never seen any mention whatsoever of it being marketed as offering increased scratch resistance.

Once your vehicle is ceramic coated, or even if you've just paid big money (or spent countless hours) having the vehicle fully corrected, your wash technique and aftercare routine is going to be critical to maintain a flawless finish. I never recommend to wipe down the vehicle with a quick detail product unless you fully pressure wash the vehicle before hand. If you've driven the vehicle at all it will have picked up debris and contamination from the road such as particles of sand, brake dust, dirt, pollen, etc. that WILL scratch the vehicle if rubbed across the surface. Before you touch any sort of towel or wash media to the paint you must remove as much of the scratch inducing abrasive particles from the paintwork with a pre-rinse every time, otherwise the vehicle will be swirled out again after only a few washes.