Ceramic coating real life swirl/scratch resistance

[TTQ B4U]

This seems like conjecture. I've asked a few times here how to know when a coating has been removed by a polish and haven't gotten a clear answer. It seems equally likely that people are removing more clear coat in their efforts to ensure that the coating has been removed. Without an unambiguous way to know when a coating has been removed or without using a good paint gauge, there's no way to know how much cc you're removing when you remove a coating. Another reason I tend to lean more toward sealants.

it doesn't take much in the way of a light polish and a simply polishing pad to remove a coating. On dark colors you'll actually see the color lighten up a shade or two. No measurable clear coat is removed.

Generally terrible spotting for me. Coatings seem to spot more readily than sealants and are harder to remove. I typically couldn't find a non-destructive way to remove them.

Try McKee's 37. I use nearly only coatings on customer vehicles and on both of mine for sure. Once coated I let them cure for several hours and many times customers will pick them up the next day. In prep for pick up I wipe them down with CarPro Reload to protect them even further while they cure in the coming days. Zero issues.

I'm heading into season where we get rain and sun throughout the day. I may try a spotting test on coatings vs. sealants.

Will be interested in your findings. I use my mix of ECh20 and reload as my detail spray after each wash thus that could be why I don't see any spotting in the summer.

 

[Cruzscarwash]

it doesn't take much in the way of a light polish and a simply polishing pad to remove a coating. On dark colors you'll actually see the color lighten up a shade or two. No measurable clear coat is removed.



Try McKee's 37. I use nearly only coatings on customer vehicles and on both of mine for sure. Once coated I let them cure for several hours and many times customers will pick them up the next day. In prep for pick up I wipe them down with CarPro Reload to protect them even further while they cure in the coming days. Zero issues.



Will be interested in your findings. I use my mix of ECh20 and reload as my detail spray after each wash thus that could be why I don't see any spotting in the summer.

I actually ran a test on McKees coating with waterspots and with the water left for only 24 hrs the spots could not be removed, not even with waterspot remover. Spots are very much dependant on your area as some places like mine have much harder water then others. My average ppm is well over 300 at the tap and even with a DI set up it's so hard I can barely get 50 gallons of water before the resin is shot and needs replacing

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[SWETM]

I actually ran a test on McKees coating with waterspots and with the water left for only 24 hrs the spots could not be removed, not even with waterspot remover. Spots are very much dependant on your area as some places like mine have much harder water then others. My average ppm is well over 300 at the tap and even with a DI set up it's so hard I can barely get 50 gallons of water before the resin is shot and needs replacing

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Does the rain water creates the same water spots? A lsp that has extreme sheeting would be good in that environment I think. Something like Sonax PNS and maintain with BSD. What lsp has you found that creates least of water spots?

 

[BudgetPlan1]

Does the rain water creates the same water spots? A lsp that has extreme sheeting would be good in that environment I think. Something like Sonax PNS and maintain with BSD. What lsp has you found that creates least of water spots?

That is certainly something to consider. I have sprayed my coated hood with hose/tap water and after drying in the sun the spots, while easily removed, look much more alarming than natural rain. I have never had water spotting issues with my current coatings and they get rained on when Mother Nature sees fit and then often dry in the sun. The water behavior with the combo as far as water spots is kinda interesting, very small beads to start with and then they just kinda shrink up and disappear while drying.

Living in NE Ohio where our main river caught fire in the 1970's due to poor environmental conditions, one would think we get some pretty contaminated rain but perhaps not.

 

[Cruzscarwash]

Waterspots from rain are not as bad but can be small issues as it's hot here (desert) but the best so far is fk1000p, dg111 seems good and McKees hi def has done well

The biggest issue here is the high winds and sprinklers. On the way to work winds are up, people get sprayed and then it takes in over 100 degree heat until they get off and normally forget so sits for a week and the. I can't get them in for a few more weeks etc.

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[The Guz]

This seems like conjecture. I've asked a few times here how to know when a coating has been removed by a polish and haven't gotten a clear answer. It seems equally likely that people are removing more clear coat in their efforts to ensure that the coating has been removed. Without an unambiguous way to know when a coating has been removed or without using a good paint gauge, there's no way to know how much cc you're removing when you remove a coating. Another reason I tend to lean more toward sealants.

Yeah, the removal is killing me on coatings, like you said it's much easier to remove/wipe off with sealants. Glad I'm not the only one

it doesn't take much in the way of a light polish and a simply polishing pad to remove a coating. On dark colors you'll actually see the color lighten up a shade or two. No measurable clear coat is removed.

TTQ much summed it up. The color change can be seen and it does not take much to remove a coating with a light polish as mentioned. Harder to see on lighter colors but it is no different than polishing a car to get that squeaky clean feeling.


Here is another tip from Jeff at Gyeon

The polishing method you described should work fine. The coating is a relatively thin layer of material and if you are seeing swirls and scratches it is likely they have traveled through to the paint. So if you are removing them you are likely removing the coating as well. The old coating will not flake or peel off. It is a very thin layer that just deteriorate over time. I would conduct a test area to polish. Degrease the area very well after each polishing pass to test the hydrophobic properties of the panel. The easiest way to tell if the coating is gone is to polish until the water lays flat. I keep a spray bottle of water next to me, polish, degrease (APC), and then spray the panel with water. If beading like crazy then the coating is present and if it lays flat then it is gone.

 

[RippyD]

Will be interested in your findings. I use my mix of ECh20 and reload as my detail spray after each wash thus that could be why I don't see any spotting in the summer.

Assuming you wash fairly often, you're seeing the action of Reload rather than your coating. I haven't seen much spotting with Reload. If I need to keep a sealant on a coating to protect it from spotting, why am I using a coating?

 

[Rsurfer]

Assuming you wash fairly often, you're seeing the action of Reload rather than your coating. I haven't seen much spotting with Reload. If I need to keep a sealant on a coating to protect it from spotting, why am I using a coating?

For your peace of mind.:xyxthumbs:

 

[SWETM]

My thoughts about it is that reload on it's own is not the same as reload on a coating. The coating is extremely thin and hard and have some texture that makes it hydrophobic. When you use a dedicated topper you ad to the coating to smooth it out and still get the extreme water behavior. If I remember correctly reload on it's own has a contact angle of 90 degree. And a coating has about 115 degree contact angle. I don't think that you are increase the water contact angle when apply reload over the coating. But maintain it and get you the smooth feel and ad to the longevity of it. It's much of chemistry behind coatings and toppers how they work in synergy than on it's own. A simple test would be to coat half of the hood with a coating and then apply reload over the whole hood. And wait until the 7 days has gone and test what the difference is. I think that the results would be that the coating reload side would have a little more aggressive water behavior than the reload side. Just my thoughts about it.

 

[RippyD]

Could be, but this sounds like opinion. Every seems to have lot of opinion on how these things work, but it's all fairly unclear. Manufacturers really aren't talking in terms other than marketing speak. It could be that Reload somehow doesn't inhibit the action of the coating. It seems equally likely to me that it sits on top and acts just like Reload over paint. Without some evidence either way I don't think we can know.

 

[TTQ B4U]

My average ppm is well over 300 at the tap and even with a DI set up it's so hard I can barely get 50 gallons of water before the resin is shot and needs replacing

that's definitely on the high side of things. my recommendation is to apply a topper such as Reload/ECH20 or even D156 over top once you're done washing it. Both will help.

Assuming you wash fairly often, you're seeing the action of Reload rather than your coating. I haven't seen much spotting with Reload. If I need to keep a sealant on a coating to protect it from spotting, why am I using a coating?

perhaps and no doubt the topper is effective. in terms of why not just a topper vs a coating first.....I would say both Durability and look. The coating will deepen the color and help make metallic pop out better. It will also help protect the vehicle more as you'll have both a layer of coating and the topper above the clear coat. YMMV but I've been using coating nearly exclusively for about 18 months and I've had far more compliments and stunning results since vs simply using sealants as my LSP. Ironically just yesterday, I got a text from a customer who put up a review on another car site showing his vehicle that I did over 1 year ago and it's still bringing stunning results and compliments in on that board. There really is a noticeable difference when done right and cared for properly. Even the new owner of my Audi who does not garage the car is very pleased with how it's held up over this winter.

 

[RippyD]

Could be, but this sounds like opinion. Everybody has an opinion on how these things work (including me), but it's all fairly unclear. Manufacturers really aren't talking in terms other than marketing speak. It could be that Reload somehow doesn't inhibit the action of the coating. It seems equally likely to me that it sits on top and acts just like Reload over paint. Without some evidence either way I don't think we can know.

 

[Cruzscarwash]

that's definitely on the high side of things. my recommendation is to apply a topper such as Reload/ECH20 or even D156 over top once you're done washing it. Both will help.



perhaps and no doubt the topper is effective. in terms of why not just a topper vs a coating first.....I would say both Durability and look. The coating will deepen the color and help make metallic pop out better. It will also help protect the vehicle more as you'll have both a layer of coating and the topper above the clear coat. YMMV but I've been using coating nearly exclusively for about 18 months and I've had far more compliments and stunning results since vs simply using sealants as my LSP. Ironically just yesterday, I got a text from a customer who put up a review on another car site showing his vehicle that I did over 1 year ago and it's still bringing stunning results and compliments in on that board. There really is a noticeable difference when done right and cared for properly. Even the new owner of my Audi who does not garage the car is very pleased with how it's held up over this winter.

Oh, man I've tried everything, ech2o collects way to much dust and I always have streaking issues. D156 is decent but doesn't help as much as I'd like it to. I just hate this water

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[Eldorado2k]

My thoughts about it is that reload on it's own is not the same as reload on a coating.


A simple test would be to coat half of the hood with a coating and then apply reload over the whole hood. And wait until the 7 days has gone and test what the difference is. I think that the results would be that the coating reload side would have a little more aggressive water behavior than the reload side. Just my thoughts about it.

With all due respect, this Opinion carries little weight until you’ve done somekind of testing to confirm it.

 

[SWETM]

Sure it's my opinion about it and don't have done the testing to confirm it myself. But if we where to turn it the way around. Why would all of them that use coatings and there toppers don't noticed the toppers works the same on it's own that coatings does? And would not them notice when apply something like reload on their coating notice it's degrade the coatings behavior. Or is it so that a contact angle of 90 degree is not noticeble that a contact angle of 115 degree?

I would think after all this years of use of most carpro cquartz coatings and reload we would see the users skip the coatings and just use reload and Ech2o on their own. And skip the hassle to prep for the coating and make it simple for them. Or why are they still useing coatings? Is coatings only a snake oil and the users of them cheated by the manufactures of them. I would think that it does something that makes it worth useing.

And it's up to our self what to believe in and I respect your opinions about it. I have only used toppers at the time. And next are going to use a coating light with PA Master Sealant. But it's more in the looks I think I would get than not trust the coatings ability to work.

Have you guys tested coatings?

 

[Eldorado2k]

Sure it's my opinion about it and don't have done the testing to confirm it myself. But if we where to turn it the way around. Why would all of them that use coatings and there toppers don't noticed the toppers works the same on it's own that coatings does? And would not them notice when apply something like reload on their coating notice it's degrade the coatings behavior. Or is it so that a contact angle of 90 degree is not noticeble that a contact angle of 115 degree?

Well... Not trying to completely disagree with the vast majority, but why wouldn’t a topper like Carpro Reload work/look the same whether it’s layed over a coating or not? Isn’t it true that the main thing that truly matters is how well the surface has been prepped? For example we’re quik to point out how the true shine and clarity comes from the polishing of the paint, not the lsp aka wax, sealant, etc... So as long as the paint has been prepped to perfection, shouldn’t the application of Carpro Reload just be the cherry on top? Of course it’s going to look good, because most of the “good looks” were achieved before the Reload was applied. [same way it is when a good sealant, wax, etc. is applied]


Now to the 2nd part of your statement: Yes there’s definitely a possibility that someone might notice a degradation of their coating after using something like Reload [or better yet a lesser quality/competing product that shares the same basic chemical ingredients. Sio2, silica, etc.]

How many times have we heard people say “don’t use a wax on top of your coating because you’ll lose the great characteristics of the coating [water behavior, dirt repellency, etc] by covering them up and instead experience the lesser grade characteristics of the wax”.

So if you can experience a degradation of your coating if you make the mistake of topping it with a wax, why wouldn’t you be able to notice a degradation from using a coating topper if the coating topper happens to suck? Not all products work so great... And there’s sure to be some duds even in the coating genre.

 

[Eldorado2k]

I would think after all this years of use of most carpro cquartz coatings and reload we would see the users skip the coatings and just use reload and Ech2o on their own. And skip the hassle to prep for the coating and make it simple for them. Or why are they still useing coatings? Is coatings only a snake oil and the users of them cheated by the manufactures of them. I would think that it does something that makes it worth useing.

Now here’s an interesting subject.. You bring up something I’ve been saying for a long time in regards to “spray waxes”

1st I have a question: Who came up with this term “toppers”? The manufacturer aka the experts, or the consumer aka the OCD enthusiasts?

Because if we go back to when things were originally released on the market, all you have to do is read the label of these so called “toppers” and clearly see that nowhere on the label does it even hint of it being recommended as a “topper” over your existing protection.

Lets have a look.

Does it even hint of it being a “topper”? Nope.

How bout Reload..

It doesn’t say anything about topping anything...

These products are stand alone spray sealants. It’s the enthusiast that made up the whole “topper” thing in their heads. The manufacturers are simply playing along because it results in more profits. The only thing you’re topping off is their wallets.Lol.

These products aren’t meant to top anything. I’ve been saying this for years.

 

[redline]

Has anyone had any experience with Ceramic Pro . I know this site does not sell or can sell it .

 

[SWETM]

I'm with you with the quick wax.
But I was not around detailing when reload where released. What I have read about it I had the impression that from the start was made for reload a cquartz coating when it was beginning to degrade. Then it where find to work good on it's own. Not ceramic coating good but sealant good. And it was helping the cquk during the first time to cure fully and help it not to water spotting during this time was a benefit too. I'm sorry if I have got that wrong but it has been how I have understand it.

I'm with you about if a topper sucks it's degrades the coatings behavior and looks. And maybe you don't get the coating behavior with a topper like reload but near to it to be acceptable to extend the longevity of coating behavior than not useing it. I have also wondering why you where to topp a coating all the time if the behavior gets muted. That's why I think in this case carpro has made their research that reload and Ech2o is working in synergy with their coatings. To ad the sio2 in small quantaties that does not mute them to the extent that it's muting the coatings.

I agree with you also it's in the prep work that makes the most gloss to the finish. But with a great quality wax sealants and coatings I think you can ad gloss to a perfect preped finish. As you also with a bad product can mute the gloss also. What I mean is that high quality wax and synthetic wax polymers and ceramic coating if applyied to a perfect polished finish you can make the gloss readings higher. But if not a high gloss reading from the start those would not come up to even at the perfect polished finish levels. As if you where to apply a not so good the high gloss reading would be lower than starting finish.

Then just because it's sio2 or tio2 in a coating they all don't look the same. You have all kinds of effects from different brands that gives that coating it's own look. Take Polish Angel for an example they have broken down carnuaba to very small pieces and got them to bond with their cosmic v2 coating. Then they have this coating so you you can order it depending the color of your car. So they mix in the carnuaba flakes that are colored at some way to make just that color to pop and gloss. And so is it with wax too that certain wax blend suits certain colors. Dodo juice has done this for a while now with their waxes. As white or yellow carnuaba and montan and bees wax and alot more to get different effects to different paints. Maybe not it's very noticeble but that last procentage. And you have alot more of color polymers that darkens or brightens the paints.

Then you have the quality of the products. There is different kind of purity in carnuaba wax and color. That's why you are paying more for some waxes than others. And so is it also with synthetic wax and coatings. How much does this do is much up to the consumer that uses it. Are you satisfied with a lower grade carnuaba or you want the higher grades it's up to you as consumer to decide. And how will we know which grade they use is something we have to trust on the manufactures and sellers of them to set the price point there after. But would it not been great if they where have to declare what they are haveing in their products. Then you have something at lower price that just works on certain color of paints as montan wax on black paint.

I don't argue against you or any other just wants to write my thoughts about it. And that's the beauty of it that we don't think alike and prefer different ways to get to the goal we have to get our cars to look awesome. The eye of the beholder or what is it you say is so different between all of us. As what we are believe in could work or not. Then you have the pros that are doing it for someone else and make them satisfied with their work.

Then I think that it's always has been people that like to test out different uses of products that where not the intended use for them. And also mixing and layering different products to get a different look. Take drying aid as a perfect thing that came out before the product description said it could be used that way. The Ech2o QD dilution and added reload to enhance the gloss effect was something someone came up with and not the manufacture. And many more like this.

And apologise for the off topic.

 

[Whacky]

Good stuff here.

So I was wondering the other day if I hadn't gone with the EXO topcoat, what the results would look like.

In your experience, whats the real life difference in look and functionality between the Crystal Serum Ultra alone, and when its topped with EXO?

Water spotting and beading I presume are the advertised benefits.