Chemical additive to increase Foam/Suds?

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Noob1

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Noob looking seeking advice, do you knowof a chemical additive that could be used with any car soap to increase foamand lather properties? I’ve done a little research and I think what I’m lookingfor is Ammonium Lauryl Sulfate in powder form. Can you confirm orsuggest a product that I could use that might help. If you’re wondering why I recently purchaseda MTMHydro PF22 foam cannon and several car soaps specificallymade for this type of application and I’m not getting great result. I’ve tried troubleshootingeverything I can think of. I’ve contacted MTM and Hosty for advice and got nowhere. At the heart of the issue is that I’mnot getting decent amount of foam with my pressure washer/ foam cannon setup. Theonly way I’m adequate application is when I switch chemical flow nozzle tomax or increasing the soap to water ration in mix bottle. But this can’t be rightunless soap manufactures are incorrectly claiming 1-2 oz. application when itshould be 2-3 oz. mixture. Any advicewould greatly be appreciated.
 
ONR (Optimum No Rinse (Wash and Shine))in small amounts is suitable for use as a water softener.

I don't know what size your MTM bottle is (15oz, 32 oz, 1 L, etc). If you look at the videos from 9thgenaccord on Youtube, he uses 2 oz. of soap in 10 oz. of water, and seems to get good foam density. The soap density will be very dependent on setting of the top knob, and it should be just off of the full on foam position (just slightly to the right of fully closed using my foam canon). The other factors will be water hardness (fill the foam cannon container with distilled water to see if that is your issue, and make sure it is warn, not cold), and spread pattern (the wider the pattern, the lower density of foam), and pressure from the pressure washer (at least 1500 psi). This leaves out the obvious: soap/shampoo/detergent, and they do vary in foam density. Watch some of the 9thgenaccord videos, as he does review quite a lot of them.
 
kkritsilas said:
Watch some of the 9thgenaccord videos, as he does review quite a lot of them.
Click to expand...

"Quite alot of them" would be an understatement... I watched a few of his reviews. I've seen that guy before under the username "backyard detailer" and scrolling through the comments on 1 of the vids I found yet another account of his where he posts more of the same, yup, more car soap reviews... Smh.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with posting content, but all his soap reviews are pretty much the same thing over and over. He foams down his clean car, says pretty much the same exact thing about the thickness of the foam, talks about the size of the bubbles, then checks to see if the foam has removed his layer of sealant/diminished beading [as if any current car wash is going to fail at that] etc etc etc...

If you watch 1, you've watched em all. Lol. The thing I found funny was his review of 3D Pink compared to his review of CG Mr. Pink.. It was quite amusing that he rated 3D Pink a 7.5, yet the very ordinary looking results of Mr. Pink ended with him proclaiming it makes his top 5 soaps! Lol. That dude is either stretching far out to please his subscribers, or is a bit of a fanboy himself, because there's no way on earth that soap looked anywhere above average in the vid. He should step up to much newer offerings if he's going to continue reviewing car soaps, because the long list he's done so far are basic soaps with little to no difference between them and the proof shows in his repetitive comments about all of them.
Just sayin.
 
In my experience, when you add ONR to a traditional soap it reduces suds. Soft water helps but something else in ONR seems to suppress suds.

3D Pink is one of the better foaming soaps. CG Pink was nothing special. I have a whole house water softener and it made a big difference.
 
Eldorado 2K:

He is trying to come up with a consistent testing method for testing these soaps/shampoos. He is trying to do something besides the "great....good...OK...bad" rating method. Having created a testing methodology, he follows it pretty closely to allow for a valid comparison. He tries to characterise the soaps in as many ways as possible, so that people can figure out what the differences are, and potentially what those differences mean to the performance of the soap. He always uses 2 Oz. Of soap in 10 Oz. of water in the foam cannon, 3 oz. Of soap in 3 gal. of soap in 3 gal. of water in the soap bucket. To allow that to vary, would make the results inconsistent, and most likely, invalid. He is trying to reduce all the variables so that the only difference is the soap's performance. He doesn't have control over the environment (Temperature, humidity; wind, and sun), but he is controlling everything else that he can. He has tested a lot of soaps, but it doesn't come anywhere near the number of soaps that are available. Individual brands have multiple soaps, some have 4-5, some have many more than that (see CG). He could do soap tests for the next 10 years and still not cover all the soaps available


As for washing s clean" car, it isn't. It is shown in the videos that there is some sort on the car. It may not be mud caked, like what an off road vehicle just coming back from mud bogging all day, but the cars he is washing are about right for use with a foam cannon. Really dirty cars are not going to benefit from a foam cannon wash. Very dirty cars need to get washed some other way. So the dirt levels of the cars he is using for testing are appropriate for a foam cannon wash.

I have had some discussion with Russel about the validity if some of the points he raises in his testing. Let's just say that we have agreed to disagree.

Optimum themselves suggest using ONE as a water softener. I think they suggested .5 oz. per gallon. Obviously it should NOT be ONE Eassh and Shine..
 
Noob1 said:
Noob looking seeking advice,
do you knowof a chemical additive
that could be used with any car soap
to increase foamand lather properties?
Click to expand...
All soaps, shampoos, detergents, etc.
are going to foam---to some degree or
another---when mixed with air/water.

Adding foaming agents to a
stabilized car wash solution...in
order to have it become more foamy?
I know I sure wouldn't!

"Destabilization", of cleaning products,
may wind up being the least unfavorable
event that might occur.

**********************************
cleanmycorolla said:
whats so important about suds?
suds doesn't equal cleaning,
its just means suds.....
Click to expand...
^^So true^^^

•Some people tend to directly equate
"clean" to the amount of foam they
see during the washing processes:
-"Foaming", then, it seems, becomes
a critical component of satisfaction.

•But, IMO:
-Once it is understood that a wet, thin
film-layer of foam is optimal for cleaning...
"Foaming" soon becomes a less critical
must-see component of the cleaning
processes.



Bob
 
kkritsilas said:
Eldorado 2K:

He is trying to come up with a consistent testing method for testing these soaps/shampoos. He is trying to do something besides the "great....good...OK...bad" rating method. Having created a testing methodology, he follows it pretty closely to allow for a valid comparison. He tries to characterise the soaps in as many ways as possible, so that people can figure out what the differences are, and potentially what those differences mean to the performance of the soap. He always uses 2 Oz. Of soap in 10 Oz. of water in the foam cannon, 3 oz. Of soap in 3 gal. of soap in 3 gal. of water in the soap bucket. To allow that to vary, would make the results inconsistent, and most likely, invalid. He is trying to reduce all the variables so that the only difference is the soap's performance.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify: I wasn't knocking the fact that his reviews were all the same based on him using the same testing methods for each 1 of them... I said that all of his reviews sound the same based on the fact that he's testing general grade car wash soaps and it's no surprise they all perform about the same.

I've voiced my opinion about general grade car wash soaps on the market these days and I truly believe that the differences between all of them are so minimal that the only deciding factor comes down to how much of a preference aka how much fanboyism we have towards any particular brand.
Name 1 car wash soap that totally sucks when it comes to lubricity.
Name 1 that totally lacks suds.
Name 1 that simply fails to clean like the rest of them.
Name 1 that strips wax the moment it touches your paint.

I bet there isn't a single car wash soap that fails those basic requirements, which is why its my opinion that it's a complete waste of time to even bother comparing them to each other.

He should review higher grade car wash soaps that are available in 2017 i.e. Gyeon Bathe+, Carpro Hydrofoam, Reset, and other soaps that actually contain ingredients to make them stand out from the run of the mill general grade soaps which are basically all the same... His reviews prove they're all the same, because he pretty much repeats himself over and over in every vid.. I'm surprised he hasn't figured that out by now.
 
I'd be curious where the original poster lives, since it's not indicated in his profile.

In my experience, lack of sudsing is due to extremely soft water - Baton Rouge LA as an example.

The best use I've found for suds is to show where I have (or haven't) washed.
 
Look up the review of the Honest Wash Fat Foamer. Wile id does foam up, it doesn't do it very well. Right in the video, he says that it is horrible. Look at the video for the CG Glossworks soap. See the difference, both in the foam on the car, and the comments? There are differences, and they are not subtle. The Honest Wash Fat Foamer looks like it fulfills your request to name a soap that truly sucks, and doesn't foam (or doesn't foam well, at least), and doesn't clean. The turtle Wax review comes pretty close to being as bad. So yes, there are soaps that suck, and thre are soaps that are really good. The majority fall into the middle, just like the regular old bell curve.

The choice of soaps, as might be iunderstood from the title, it based on their being available on Amazon. He has reviewed Nanoskin, Meguiar's, and CG products (usually multiple from each line). Truth of the matter is that reviewing a soap that isn't available widely is not going to help anybody, as it probably won't be available to most people. For example, Glossworks for me is only available by mail order, while Extreme Maxi Suds II that I use is available locally. Glossworks may be better, but not so much better that I am willing to pay the extra cost, shipping and wait for the mail order to come in. Other, entire lines are not available at all. So his doing tests of say, Burt Hamber products (available in the UK an Europe, but not generally available in North America) wouldn't do most people any good. Same goes for Gyeon, or Carpro. He is trying to reach a general audience, not the leading edge detailers. Leadiing edge detailers don't need reviews to guide them, they know what works.

I didn't get the Glossworks, I got the CG Extreme Maxi Suds II. No it does not foam the best, but for a pH balanced soap, and it cleans really well. It is also cheaper than the favoured Glossworks, or the other favoured car wash soap which is from a line not carried here..
 
My question would be why? It's not suds or foam that wash a vehicle, it's the lubricity of the detergent and agitation of wash media (wash-mitt). Hence, why Mike Phillips states not to use the "cave-man" approach when filling your bucket. Fill with water first, then add your soap, then use your natural ability to stir the liquid, usually means I dunk my arm and hand and slosh the soapy water around and stir the solution :)

I do enjoy using my AGO Foam Cannon as a way to pre-treat the vehicle. And I use Megs Hyper Wash, about one ounce in the canister, and fill the rest with water, and it does the trick nicely.

Honestly, I'm not sure if making the vehicle looks like it just got painted white with soap creates a reasonable difference between getting the car gorged with a good car-soap, then use the wash-mitts and 2BM, (filled with 3 oz of Soap and 4 Gals of water).
 
I'm a fan of Russell. He's saved me from buying a lot of soaps on impulse. I would like someone to do a test that demonstrates whether suds help cleaning? I'm guessing very little but have no proof.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Autogeekonline mobile app
 
You way way over thinking it. If you want more foam add more soap simple as that.
 
kkritsilas said:
As for washing s clean" car, it isn't.
It is shown in the videos that there
is some sort on the car.

It may not be mud caked, like what
an off road vehicle just coming back
from mud bogging all day, but the
cars he is washing are about right
for use with a foam cannon.

Really dirty cars are not going to benefit
from a foam cannon wash. Very dirty cars
need to get washed some other way.

So the dirt levels of the cars
he is using for testing are
appropriate for a foam cannon wash.
Click to expand...
AFAIC:
The above narrative further validates
and confirms the reasons for my being
so blithely unconcerned when it comes
to using foam guns/cannons in conjunc-
tion with any phase of detailing vehicles.



Bob
 
Eldorado2k said:
Name 1 that totally lacks suds.
Click to expand...

@kritsilas. I said suds, not foam. Suds meaning in the bucket. I do not own a foam cannon so I honestly wasn't even thinking about that being a factor.. But I guess there is a difference between the soaps as far as the foam cannon experience goes.. But alot of people argue that the foam cannon is more for show than actual purpose as far as it making any significant difference as far as cleaning. Garry Dean made a video about that and I tend to agree with it.

If I had a foam cannon I wouldn't use it the way Russell uses it and instead I would pre rinse with the power washer then foam and leave the vehicle foamed and immediately begin my bucket wash adding more suds to the wash.

As far as Russells statements about the foam step/soap cleaning "non bonded contaminants... What he really means is dust, and the power washer alone can remove all the dust just fine. Any so called "bonded contaminants" are where a soap would actually impress if it was able to remove them while still being gentle enough to not strip wax, but that's a tall order, especially when it comes to regular car wash soaps.

I didn't see the Fat Max vid. I did see the Glossworks vid and I don't remember him glowing as high about it, but I could be wrong I only watched it once a few hours ago..

At the end of the day I'm of the belief that using a foam cannon as a pre rinse doesn't amount to much more than light dust removal anyways, max foam or not, it doesn't exactly translate to any cleaning of "bonded contaminants" to use his words.
 
gspam1 said:
I'm a fan of Russell. He's saved me from buying a lot of soaps on impulse. I would like someone to do a test that demonstrates whether suds help cleaning? I'm guessing very little but have no proof.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Autogeekonline mobile app
Click to expand...

the problem with most soaps are they are not meant to be used in a foam gun/cannon but more so in a bucket wash. i would be more concerned about the soaps lubricity in which it helps prevent swirls in conjunction with your wash mitt. if one is concerned about it so much, pressure wash the car first before washing which will remove some of the loose dirt and then start your normal wash routine...
 
If you do watch the videos carefully, you will see that Russell/9thgenaccord does indeed characterize the soap in both the foam cannon and the bucket wash. He characterizes the foam structure (bubble sizes, mix of sizes, and for foam cannons, layers) and lubricity for both the foam out of the foam cannon, and from the wash bucket. Lubricity/slickness seems to be a particular point of emphasis for him.In addituon, he has now started to rate how "durable" the soap is on the wash media. Durability is defined (by him) as how slippery the the media at the end of a panel being soaped up is as compared to the beginning of the panel being soaped up. That too, seems to vary. between soaps.

As for the validity of a foam cannon, to each their own. Gary Dean has his opinions. Others have different opinions. Considering the amount of time that setting up a foam cannon/pressure washer takes up to set up, vs. just a pressure washer alone, I like to take the extra 5 minutes, and 2 ounces of soap and foam wash. It may not be getting much of a benefit, but it may help dislodge some grit particles or get rid to some tree sap. Argument can be made that just a pressure washer rinse may do the same. Maybe. Maybe not. Just seems to me that a good to great foaming soap (high lubricity, high cleaning power) would be of at least some benefit. My soap of choice, CG Maxi Suds II, was chosen based on Russell's video of the soap. It wasn't the best soap, but it was among the soaps that cleaned the best as a foam wash. I hadn't even heard of the Maxi Suds II before watching Russell's video review of it. Without the review, I probably would have chosen some other soap, and it would have been hit or miss as to whether that soap would have done as good a job (considering the number of soaps out there, probably miss).

As for Gary Dean, or Russell, or Junkman 2000, or any of the Youtube detailing hosts, I do watch their videos, but I don't necessarily agree with their points of view. I respect their efforts, but they don't always come across as logical to me. Gary Dean has his views on foam cannons, and I don't agree with them. Junkman 2000 is a two bucket wash method guy; I use a one bucket method (like Russell does). Russell doesn't think that increased foam cannon lubrication will cause the foam to slide of quicker. I disagree because it seems only logical that a slicker/slipperier surface would allow gravity to pull the foam down faster. Junkman even contradicts himself sometimes. What I am saying is that there are many ways to detail a car. Everybody has their own way, and if it is working for them, great. I am pretty new at this, but did a lot of reading, an watching of videos before I got started from multiple sources. I took what I thought was the most logical parts of many processes and jumbled them together when I started doing my own detailing. Doesn't mean anybody was wrong, just meant that I used what works for me. I get a lot from the detailing videos, I don't let them think for me. They all provide some information that is useful, but they also mix in some opinions that I don't agree with. I couldn't for example, run out and get upwards of 50 car soaps to try in order to find the one that was best for me. Russell has done that in a video series, so I take that information to help me decide where to start. Where else are you going to get valid comparisons made? Watching vendor videos doesn't work; CG must have a dozen soaps out, and according to their videos, every single one of them is the best; all of them make thick foam, all of them clean perfectly. Guess what: NOPE.

What Gary Dean says about foam cannons may be completely correct in Florida. I don't live in Florida, I live in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. In the summer, we get a lot of blown dirt particles on everything. Our humidity is low, the summers get hot, it is windy most of the time, and dust blows everywhere, all the time. So, in our part of the world, I think a foam cannon pre-wash helps.
 
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