Cleaner then clay or clay then cleaner???

[DARK HORSE]

Hey Mike,

Maybe decide upon which polisher you want to get and then describe what kind of defects you want to remove and then others can make more qualified product and pad recommendations.

In post #14 the OP asks for sugesstions;
"what machine polisher, pads, other waxs, polishes and etc for machine waxing will I need? A good beginner laundry list of items that I won't outgrow in the next couple of years".

In post #15 AsphaltRocket gives a detailed and very efficient set of suggestions (as requested by the OP);
"A pc with Megs 105/205 with some 5.5 inch pads. I would suggest at least 3-5 of the orange, white, and blue pads. As far as wax goes, if the vehicles sit outside I would suggest a sealant like Wolfgang. Souveran, Poorboys Natty's Blue and Dodo would be a nice choice of waxes to try. One thing to remember is that wax or sealant do not add anything to the finish since that is done in your polishing, but they are there to protect all your hard work".

 

[michal101]

Here is what I use:

And I mistakenly said Meg's #1 and #2 when I should have said steps #1 and 2 of the Meg's "Deep Crystal" system. Sorry guys.

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

Hey Asphalt,

I appreciate the info very much!!! Anybody else have suggestions as well?

Mike

You are welcome Mike.

My suggestion would be for best results listen to Asphalt :dblthumb2:

Thanks Tad.:dblthumb2:

Mike P, you can say paint cleaners remove defects, but they fill more than they will remove. Anything can be written on a bottle but what they actually do is what I will correctly tell someone about a product. That is why there is aggressive polishes all the way to very mild polishes to remove defects and then you use your paint cleaners to remove old wax or to just clean the paint surface so you have a clean slate to apply your lsp.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

They are the maroon bottles

Mike

Thanks for clarifying. People can take about Numbers 1, 2, and 3 and these exist in both the Consumer Line and the Professional Line.

As for Asphalt's recommendation, M105 and M205 will work with just about any machine or by hand but best results are gained when used by machine.

Again... thanks for clarifying.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike P, you can say paint cleaners remove defects, but they fill more than they will remove.

Have you ever used M04? Not sure you're talking about the same product as I am as M04 Heavy Cut Cleaner is pretty darn aggressive.

When is the last time you used this product?

but what they actually do is what I will correctly tell someone about a product.

No doubt about that.

That is why there is aggressive polishes all the way to very mild polishes to remove defects and then you use your paint cleaners to remove old wax or to just clean the paint surface so you have a clean slate to apply your lsp.

I think there's some confusion over terminology because while M04 is referred to as a paint cleaner, it's nothing like the paint cleaner you just described to remove old wax.

It's a very large chunky diminishing abrasive product that most companies would have called a compound but it's more complex than just grit in a bottle so Meguiar's called it a Paint Cleaner.

In order of aggressiveness from least to moat aggressive,

M02 Fine Cut Cleaner = About the same as M83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish
M01 Medium Cut Cleaner
M04 Heavy Cut Cleaner


All of these are what are referreed to as paint cleaners for removing below surface defects, not removing an old coat of wax.


What year was the last time you ever used M04? Seriously, it's more than a wax remover.

If you like, I'll send you a bottle so you see for yourself, it's not like a light paint cleaner like you're talking about.

????

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

I used it years ago, I believe I still have a bottle of it at my parents house from many years ago.I will check when I am over there checking on my dad. There really is no point in using something like that when you have all these different grades of polishes to do anything you need done. Why take a chance of something that will fill when you have a dedicated polish that will produce better results.

There is no need to force a tool or polish to do something that it wasn't intended to do when you have the correct tools out there.

 

[Bunky]

I recall is that M04 was recommended to clean glass not paint.

 

[Lasthope05]

I used it years ago, I believe I still have a bottle of it at my parents house from many years ago.I will check when I am over there checking on my dad. There really is no point in using something like that when you have all these different grades of polishes to do anything you need done. Why take a chance of something that will fill when you have a dedicated polish that will produce better results.

There is no need to force a tool or polish to do something that it wasn't intended to do when you have the correct tools out there.

Asphalt I think you're taking Mike the wrong way. If you spend time over on Meguiars forums their terms for products are much different then their meanings here at AG and every other forum. From Meguiars stand point when they say paint cleaner they usually mean an abrasive polish or compound. When they say polish they mean non abrasive gloss enhancers like a typical paint glaze.

An example is M80, M82 and M83. By our standards they are polishes but by Meguairs standards they are called paint cleaners.

 

[Wax Gorilla]

Wash then Clay !

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

Asphalt I think you're taking Mike the wrong way. If you spend time over on Meguiars forums their terms for products are much different then their meanings here at AG and every other forum. From Meguiars stand point when they say paint cleaner they usually mean an abrasive polish or compound. When they say polish they mean non abrasive gloss enhancers like a typical paint glaze.

An example is M80, M82 and M83. By our standards they are polishes but by Meguairs standards they are called paint cleaners.

I realize they have a different meaning for products, but this is AG, not MOL. On all the other forums we explain what the product really does not what they want to call it.

 

[Joshs2013MSAltimaSL]

I realize they have a different meaning for products, but this is AG, not MOL. On all the other forums we explain what the product really does not what they want to call it.

I agree, it's not what the label says, but what the product actually does. For instance, Wolfgang has a "finishing glaze," but it's really not a glaze, but more of a final polish. If you're looking for a paint cleaner, get a product that only does that, if you want a medium polish, then get something that is only a medium polish.

 

[DARK HORSE]

I agree, it's not what the label says, but what the product actually does. For instance, Wolfgang has a "finishing glaze," but it's really not a glaze, but more of a final polish. If you're looking for a paint cleaner, get a product that only does that, if you want a medium polish, then get something that is only a medium polish.

:whs:

 

[GMC83]

M04 works very well on glass. Seems to remove just about everything.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I recall is that M04 was recommended to clean glass not paint.

No, that's wrong. M04 is a paint cleaner, it's a more complicated product that a traditional rubbing compound, at least as they evolved in the early 1920's to the present. M04 has been around probably since the 1930's or 1940's, hard to say since anyone that would know for sure is no longer with us.

I posted an explanation as to why it works so good for polishing glass here back in 2005, and that's probably where you're confusing it with only being a glass polish.

Glass Polishing - Deep Cleaning

I detailed cars professionally in Oregon, Washington and Northern Idaho and all these states get a lot of rain, as such most of the cars I detailed had water spots on the paint and water spots on the glass.

Follow me on this...
You can't restore a show car shine on a customer's paint and leave the water spots on the glass. It just doesn't look right to have super shiny paint but spotty glass. So I need a way to polish glass safely and for that I used M04 Heavy Cut Cleaner. This product uses a very large size, CHUNKY diminishing abrasive. It would cut the gunk, film and spots off glass by hand or with a rotary buffer without scratching the glass.


:xyxthumbs:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I realize they have a different meaning for products, but this is AG, not MOL. On all the other forums we explain what the product really does not what they want to call it.

Dana,

Just a casual perusing of any of my replies to any thread shows that I explain what products do despite what the words on the label state.

What I do is place product into categories by what the products do, not by what the words on the label state, which is what you wrote in the quote above, so we're on the same page in this instance.


So while some products labeled "Paint Cleaner" may only fill in defects, some products labeled paint cleaner will definitely remove defects, each product needs to be evaluated on a case by case situation.


Let me know if you ever dig up your old bottle of M04 and are able to shake it up and pour some out and feel just how CHUNKY this product is then I'm sure you'll agree if you follow the directions, the NEW directions for M04 as they were changed when clear coats came out, and apply this product with a rotary buffer it will in fact remove defects, not merely fill them in.

Note the directions for M01, M02 and M04 had to be changed in the early 1990's as clear coats became the dominate surface coating for new cars and trucks. Previously the directs on all 3 of these products stated you could use them by hand but that was because when they came out back in the early history of the automobile, all cars were painted with soft, single stage paints and on these types of paints they were safe to use by hand. On clear coats however, when used by hand they would scour the clear coat finish so the labels were changed to read For use with Rotary Buffer only.


Here's a fun read...

MGH-4 Hand Cleaner - Still Good After All These Years!

Photo courtesy of MeguiarsOnline.com


MGH-4 Hand Cleaner - This became M04 Heavy Cut Cleaner

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

Mike, if we go by the way you say what paint cleaners are or by what megs says then you might as well throw everything in that catagory from compounds to final polishes because they do clean the paint also. There has to be a cut off on what products do. A paint cleaner is just that, it chemically cleans the paint. Now if it has abrasives in it, it should be called a polish of some sort. I understand some companies call their product different things, just look at Zaino, but lets call it what it really is, especially on here, paint cleaners have meant one thing. There is no need to to change that and make it more confusing than it really is. People have a hard enough time trying to figure out what all the Menzerna numbers mean.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike, if we go by the way you say what paint cleaners are or by what megs says then you might as well throw everything in that category from compounds to final polishes because they do clean the paint also.

How do you suggest we decide who's right when it comes to which words are used to describe a product?

You want the job of Word Czar?

What if we used the precedent of whose used the term the longest?

If not the precedent of whose used the term the longest, what do you suggest?


Hey Dana, I'm always open to suggestions for a better way to do things, in fact I post I"m always open to learning new things all the time.

So please, share your ideas...


:dblthumb2:

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

How do you suggest we decide who's right when it comes to which words are used to describe a product?

You want the job of Word Czar?

What if we used the precedent of whose used the term the longest?

If not the precedent of whose used the term the longest, what do you suggest?


Hey Dana, I'm always open to suggestions for a better way to do things, in fact I post I"m always open to learning new things all the time.

So please, share your ideas...


:dblthumb2:

I believe I answered some of your questions in my above post that you did not fully quote. You always seem to just pick out certain parts of a quote to benefit you instead of the whole thing, hmmmm.

My suggestion would be to continue with the terminology that has been on that said forum. Like here and others people know a paint cleaner as ones from Pinnacle or P21s, not saying Megs doesn't have one but when you bring in stuff that you say are paint cleaners that everyone associates as some type of polish makes things difficult. Plus I didn't realize we were going to be so nit picky about bringing up things that are associated as polishes because they say they are paint cleaners, but are polishes, into the equation, to me that is grasping at straws to try and prove a point.

You are the one that always preaches the KISS method and that is all I am suggesting. Now if I were on MOL, then I would agree with the other terminology on calling those polishes paint cleaners. It comes down to keeping the same terminology of a product on that given forum the same, this will make it very simple and easy for people to understand without any confusion.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Plus I didn't realize we were going to be so nit picky about bringing up things that are associated as polishes because they say they are paint cleaners, but are polishes, into the equation, to me that is grasping at straws to try and prove a point.

A long time ago I learned that words mean things and on discussion forums there's always a handful of problem people that forces me to be very exact with my wording.

For regular members, you can use your words loosely if you like but I'm very exact in my wording otherwise it comes back to bite me in the you know where.

An example is using the word car wax to refer to a paint sealant, if I were to do that everyone would pick my wording apart, so look at almost everytime I refer to using an LSP I write,


Your choice of car wax or paint sealant


Of some variation. When I first started posting to the Internet, back in 1994, long before vBulletin was ever introduced I learned real fast that it's important to be very careful with wording or like I said above, a handful of problem members will try to tear what a person writes apart.

How about a couple of these Dana?


:cheers:

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

I would love to have several of those with you Mike but I do not drink anymore. Now if this was 5 years ago, I would have been on the plane already.:dblthumb2: