Conceptual Question about Sealents over AIO or Glaze

S

Snowrydr01

New member
Joined
Jul 6, 2015
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
first of i am a budding detailing enthusiast and a habitual over thinker.

It seems like i am getting conflicting information.

The standard response when people ask about putting sealer over wax (im not asking) is that you want sealer to grab paint, a layer between would eventually deteriorated and not last as long...This makes complete sense.

BUT

The flow chart on AGO has swirl removers and glazes BEFORE sealers....wouldnt that be the same situation of having a barrier level between sealer and paint?

Compounding this more is that when i was looking for and purchasing the least aggressive swirl remover it was also marketed as an AIO. This surely has wax in it, wouldnt that prevent a proper bond for the sealant?

Current products are
Pinnacle XMT 360
Poor Boys black hole glaze
Klasse sealant
Blackfire Montan black wax (every other month)

spray wax after full washs or ONR

Proposed Winter products (harsh in the northeast)
Pinnacle XMT 360
Klasse sealant
Blackfire crystal seal (every month or so)
Blackfire Polymer spray after washes
 
Well, you're going to get a lot of feedback here, but the basic rule of thumb is that sealants need a non-oily surface, and waxes are by nature, well, oily...this isn't coming out right.

Anyway the basic rule of thumb is you can put a wax over a sealant, but not a sealant over a wax. That same rule of thumb would be that you can't put a sealant over an "oily" glaze, or an AIO that has wax in it.

But there are some sealant-compatible glazes (of which Black Hole is one), and there are AIO's which are sealant-based (of which Klasse AIO would be one and recommended for using under Klasse High Gloss Sealant Glaze (KSG)).

Also, plenty of people will do a solvent wipedown before applying a sealant to remove any polishing oils.
 
I currently use a sealant and make sure the paint is free of everything before applying it. My understanding of the chemistry is that sealants need to bond to the paint directly for any effective durability. Waxes or anything naturally derived can bond to the paint directly or a previously applied sealant. I use waxes to simply and effectively build up the sacrificial layer for maybe just a little more protection. And of those i am referring to pure waxes...not cleaner/waxes. Cleaner waxes may remove some or all of the sealant already on the paint

I use "swirl removers" prior to sealing if there are swirls in the paint. That, to me, is an abrasion product meant to cut down and level the paint and vary in aggression depending on the level of scratches. Because of what they also have in the product to carry, suspend or "work" the abrasive particle as in oils, water whatever, i COMPLETELY remove all of it from the paint when done so my sealant is bonded to raw, nakedly exposed paint.

AIO's many times have light abrasives, cleaners, oils, etc. I don't apply a sealant on top of an AIO. I might add a wax. And again, because an AIO may include a cleaning agent i don't use an AIO over any previously applied wax or sealant unless it is part of starting over again with a new LSP layer.

As far as glazes, i don't use them anymore. The only exception is when i might be staying in the same family of products and that manufacturer recommends applying their "glaze" before their LSP product. In that case i yield to the chemist knowing what will work together and it may not even be a "glaze" as i think the traditional definition should be...pure gloss enhancing product. I use CarPro eraser before applying my sealant. That would certainly remove most if not everything the glaze is using to enhance the gloss.

Now having said all of this, there are manufacturers of products that recommend using their "swirl remover", "gloss enhancing polish" or their "astro scientific machine glaze" prior to their sealant or hybrid LSP product and i have to think they have engineered some type of chemical benefit or at least compatability to those recommendations.

I think Setec said it better.

All great questions and the chemistry side of this stuff amazes and yet confuses me also.
 
I dont nescasarily want this to turn into a "what should i use" thread but are there any VERY MILD swirl removers that you can think of that would would be sealant friendly?

I have two black cars that are stored outside and see significant highway miles so swirls are unavoidable and if im going to commit a full day twice a year to strip everything off and start over for both cars im going to need to do some correction work.
 
Poorboys SR1 claimes no waxes or silica but there would still be something (now two things if i use black hole) between the paint and the sealant.
 
When it comes to the whens/wheres/hows that a
Sealant is to be applied to a vehicle...I find it best
to just go ahead and follow the Sealant manufacturer's application directions/recommendations.


Bob
 
Black hole does NOT play well with Klasse sealant.

NOT
 
ronkh57 said:
Black hole does NOT play well with Klasse sealant.

NOT
Click to expand...

can i ask what makes you say that?

i have used it on my two black cars at the beginning of summer and it seems to be holding up well.

I also topped it with a paste wax and a spray wax every week or two so its hard to tell if it broke down or not since there are multiple layers on top of it.
 
Snowrydr01 said:
I dont nescasarily want this to turn into a "what should i use" thread but are there any VERY MILD swirl removers that you can think of that would would be sealant friendly?

I have two black cars that are stored outside and see significant highway miles so swirls are unavoidable and if im going to commit a full day twice a year to strip everything off and start over for both cars im going to need to do some correction work.
Click to expand...

I think you have a lot of redundancy in your product list, you're polishing with an AIO that has a polymer sealant in it, then following that with a durable glaze, which some would argue is another kind of polymer sealant, then following with an "acrylic" sealant, then topping with a wax.

I have never used any of the durable glazes (although I have Prima Amigo on my shelf), but I'd consider either using one or the other (Black Hole or XMT 360).

Since you asked about mild swirl removers that can be used under sealants, Optimum says all their polishes can be used before Opti-Coat without a wipedown (depending on what day of the week it is), so you could use Optimum Finish, Optimum Polish II, or Hyper Polish and go right to your sealant. The Optimum polishes are really nice to use, and some of them come in small bottles if you don't use much.

Optimum Finish Polish 8 oz., car polish, finishing polish, final polish, black car polish

Optimum Compound is an aggressive compound that finishes like a mild abrasive polish! Remove swirls and scratches with your polisher with Optimum

Optimum Hyper Polish Spray, Optimum spray polish, hyper spray polish, Optimum car polishes
 
If a few rain showers can remove a non-durable glaze, should we expect it to survive the machine application of solvent rich sealant?

Would such a glaze being incorporated into the sealant inhibit it's ability to cross-link effectively? Have no effect at all?

Does the glaze gorge the paint with oils so that the only benefit you lose by removal is filling? Would a sealant behave the same on an oil gorged paint as it would under baseline conditions?
 
i did a bit of searching last night and there was a nice test that someone did with black hole under various sealants on a pane of glass. It did not seem like the Black hole glaze had any effect on the OPs ability to strip off the sealant and he was using some pretty aggressive stuff like goo gone and chrome cleaner.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I think you have a lot of redundancy in your product list, you're polishing with an AIO that has a polymer sealant in it, then following that with a durable glaze, which some would argue is another kind of polymer sealant, then following with an "acrylic" sealant, then topping with a wax.
Click to expand...

I thought redundency with minor overlap was the name of the game :)

to be fair I only originally purchased the black hole, klasse, and BF black wax. All were chosen for their durability and polylimer base to hopefully all bond well to each other. I only wanted to have to start up from scratch once a year.

The XMT AIO was purchased later because i needed a swirl remover that would still play nice with the others. After the first pass through i didnt want to give up any of the prior products because they looked great. I did want the swirl remover and will likely be using that without the glaze for the winter months.
 
RIGHT PERFECT SIMPLE aio first klasse high gloss sealant 2nd finally someone got it RIGHT !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top