Debate Over LSP Removal Settled

tenblade2001 said:
Hopefully, this baby is one step closer to being put to bed.
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I don't know about that, what with companies coming out with new "stripping" shampoos. However, your inadvertent test is one of the best data points we have on the topic.

BTW, I don't think these companies are being disingenuous, I think they have been fooled in the same way "we" used to be by the disappearance of beading. Even in the case of Meguiar's, which has great technical depth, making the statement about D114 being used to strip (which may be true, I dunno), it could just be a disconnect between the chemists and the hands-on trainers/marketers. What I mean by that is someone in Meg's finds that using a strong dilution of D114 kills beading, draws the conclusion that it strips sealant, disseminates that to the world via forum, and it becomes gospel. If they ran it up the flagpole in the opposite direction, perhaps the Meg's chemists would say "that doesn't sound right..."

We're lucky to have PiPUK to stop by once in a while and inject some direct car product chemistry into our discussions.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
BTW, I don't think these companies are
being disingenuous, I think they have been
fooled in the same way "we" used to be by
the disappearance of beading.

Even in the case of Meguiar's, which has great technical depth, making the statement about D114 being used to strip (which may be true, I dunno), it could just be a disconnect between the chemists and the hands-on trainers/marketers. What I mean by that is someone in Meg's finds that using a strong dilution of D114 kills beading, draws the conclusion that it strips sealant, disseminates that to the world via forum, and it becomes gospel. If they ran it up the flagpole in the opposite direction, perhaps the Meg's chemists would say "that doesn't sound right..."
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Meguiar's own Michael Stoops, Jason Rose,
and Steve Coronado have spent the last three
years expending a lot of time talking about
D114's ability to strip Wax.

IMO:
Meguiar's Chemists have had ample time to
tell the above Meguiar's spokespersons to not
disseminate such a falsehood, if that was
actually the case.



Bob
 
FUNX650 said:
IMO:
Meguiar's Chemists have had ample time to
tell the above Meguiar's spokespersons to not
disseminate such a falsehood, if that was
actually the case.
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Yeah, if they actually care and if they read the forums, which they probably don't. Are they even in Irvine? Or at the plant in TN?

To me it seems unlikely that when we say that a sealant needs to be abrasively stripped, or that strong solvents are required, that a surfactant-based diluted product would be able to do so.
 
I've used griots paint prep to strip away the klasse products. It was very simple. If it could strip those away, I'd assume it could strip about any lsp.
 
I think more likely the paint was stained by the dye in the wax, and the LSP was likely removed far quicker than the stain was.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
To me it seems unlikely that when we say that a sealant needs to be abrasively stripped, or that strong solvents are required, that a surfactant-based diluted product would be able to do so.
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Not talking about D114 stripping Sealants.


Bob
 
KneeDragr said:
I think more likely the paint was stained by the dye in the wax, and the LSP was likely removed far quicker than the stain was.
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If I understood, the OP used BF Wet Diamond sealant before the Natty's. So in your scenario the Natty's dye would have to go through the sealant to get to the paint, as opposed to the OP's supposition that the dye stained the BF. I got no dog in the hunt, just clarifying.
 
KneeDragr said:
I think more likely the paint was stained by the dye in the wax, and the LSP was likely removed far quicker than the stain was.
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Soooooooo you think the dye penatrated and went past the sealant to "stain" the clearcoat? W-O-W that is a stretch. Nothing is impossible, but that is certainly imporbably. Usually, the simplist explanation (the one with the least amount of assumptions) is often true. In this case, the wax cured with the sealant.
 
tenblade2001 said:
A detailer and gifted prophet
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I'm not sure what that means, I was just pointing out that some camps continue to market soaps that claim to strip, and that this myth about Dawn etc. is going to persist well into the future even if we here in this thread know it isn't true.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I'm not sure what that means, I was just pointing out that some camps continue to market soaps that claim to strip, and that this myth about Dawn etc. is going to persist well into the future even if we here in this thread know it isn't true.
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No insult intended... I mean that I said the issue was put to rest. You wisely stated...not so fast, and sure enough more endorsements of chemical removal. In other words, you saw it coming that the issue wouldn't be laid to rest that easy.
 
993Cab said:
I've used griots paint prep to strip away the klasse products. It was very simple. If it could strip those away, I'd assume it could strip about any lsp.
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And after you used Griots Paint Prep did you conclude the Klasse products were gone because there was no beading? If so, did you then give it a wipe down with IPA? If you did the beading would re-appear because the paint prep leaves behind surfactants just like soaps. I've tested Griots Paint Prep myself and it did not remove a 6 month old sealant.
 
FUNX650 said:
Not if I can help it!

:)

Bob
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Bob!! I thought for sure you were in the abrasive camp! Hear that? That is my world shattering. You're a man of science and reason and this little experiment is pretty sound: Variables controlled (same ambient temp, humitidy, same observer i.e. no profieciency bias, direct measurement of defined end point)....oh, Bob...Bob, Bob, Bob LOL
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Yeah, if they actually care and if they read the forums, which they probably don't. Are they even in Irvine? Or at the plant in TN?

To me it seems unlikely that when we say that a sealant needs to be abrasively stripped, or that strong solvents are required, that a surfactant-based diluted product would be able to do so.
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If they ARE reading the forums, they may have just discovered (for free) that by mixing BFWD ingredients with Natty's Red, you can create the most durable LSP on the planet.
 
Evening all. Nice topic. To anyone who thinks that their simple wash solution will strip thick wax films and cured and crosslinked polymers... what about your hands? These things you are stripping are like the oils in your skin but more crosslinked and even bonded to the paint. Just being really simplistic, if they will strip that lot off your paint, why are they not destroying peoples skin? Many of these products are not even classed hazardous neat.

Why doesnt someone get a few lumps of carnauba wax and immerse them in some of these stripping products? Im willing to bet that none of the water based ones will have any visible effect on the wax, at least not unless it is dangerously alkaline. Have you ever tried dissolving wax? You need lots of heat and solvents. Even something simple like lard or butter are hard work without a lot of hot water or detergent.

Whoever started this whole myth was an idiot or had crap products.
 
PiPUK said:
Evening all. Nice topic. To anyone who thinks that their simple wash solution will strip thick wax films and cured and crosslinked polymers... what about your hands? These things you are stripping are like the oils in your skin but more crosslinked and even bonded to the paint. Just being really simplistic, if they will strip that lot off your paint, why are they not destroying peoples skin? Many of these products are not even classed hazardous neat.

Why doesnt someone get a few lumps of carnauba wax and immerse them in some of these stripping products? Im willing to bet that none of the water based ones will have any visible effect on the wax, at least not unless it is dangerously alkaline. Have you ever tried dissolving wax? You need lots of heat and solvents. Even something simple like lard or butter are hard work without a lot of hot water or detergent.

Whoever started this whole myth was an idiot or had crap products.
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Well, to be fair, skin and the human body are a lot more complicated than removing surface oils from your hands. Skin constantly rejuvenates itself - unlike LSPs. I have used many chemicals that have damaged skin (none of them "soaps") - only for it to be better the next day. You have to quantify "damage".

It's a bad analogy - bit a good point.
 
PiPUK said:
Evening all. Nice topic. To anyone who thinks that their simple wash solution will strip thick wax films and cured and crosslinked polymers... what about your hands? These things you are stripping are like the oils in your skin but more crosslinked and even bonded to the paint. Just being really simplistic, if they will strip that lot off your paint, why are they not destroying peoples skin? Many of these products are not even classed hazardous neat.

Why doesnt someone get a few lumps of carnauba wax and immerse them in some of these stripping products? Im willing to bet that none of the water based ones will have any visible effect on the wax, at least not unless it is dangerously alkaline. Have you ever tried dissolving wax? You need lots of heat and solvents. Even something simple like lard or butter are hard work without a lot of hot water or detergent.

Whoever started this whole myth was an idiot or had crap products.
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I've done the submerging test with a variety of waxes, IPA, dawn, and regular water. It had no effect on anything. I've long been propagating your findings and ideas about LSP stripping.

https://m.imgur.com/a/pHavs here's the pics of the experiment for anyone interested.
 
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