Dent Guy needing some assistance

SS Dents

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Hello Detailers,

I am a PDR technician in the OKC area. I tackle some larger and more challenging dents. I use the wetsanding technique from time to time to get rid of high spots and scuffs left from knocking down areas.

Most of my dealers aren't looking for paint perfection, but I am picking up a high-line dealer and would like to provide the best service possible. I'm not looking for paint correction quality because the inventory cars are often washed by an outside vendor that is not providing the best service when it comes to caring for the paint (swirls and such).

With this being said I'm curious what products (polishes, compounds) I could use that would deliver good quality results?

My current tool of choice is the Dewalt P849X with a Meguires 6" backing plate and 7.5" Lake Country pads (Orange, White, Gray and Red)
 
Hello Detailers,

I am a PDR technician in the OKC area. I tackle some larger and more challenging dents. I use the wetsanding technique from time to time to get rid of high spots and scuffs left from knocking down areas.

Most of my dealers aren't looking for paint perfection, but I am picking up a high-line dealer and would like to provide the best service possible. I'm not looking for paint correction quality because the inventory cars are often washed by an outside vendor that is not providing the best service when it comes to caring for the paint (swirls and such).

With this being said I'm curious what products (polishes, compounds) I could use that would deliver good quality results?

My current tool of choice is the Dewalt P849X with a Meguires 6" backing plate and 7.5" Lake Country pads (Orange, White, Gray and Red)

First if you want an excellent overview on the whole process and products do yourself a favor and get a copy of Mike Phillips book "Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine".
I am going to give you a generic answer because there are a bunch of variables involved. You could try Meguiars M105 and M205 they are very versatile (probably won't need M105 very much). If you can get by with a one step you could try D151. You might want to consider doing the polishing step with a DA.

Look those products up and see what you think.
 
If I'm understanding the site description, the D151 reduces the use of a multi-chemical process down to one chemical with the only variable being the pad used?

If I sand with 1500-2000 grit paper will D151 and the orange pad knock out the sanding marks? Then follow up with either the gray or red pad?
 
If I'm understanding the site description, the D151 reduces the use of a multi-chemical process down to one chemical with the only variable being the pad used?

If I sand with 1500-2000 grit paper will D151 and the orange pad knock out the sanding marks? Then follow up with either the gray or red pad?[/QUOTE

You got to it before I could!

I would say in the environment that you are working, D151 is EXACTLY what you need to get. It is GREAT for production work, will work with a DA and a rotary, AND provides a slightly amount of wax to protect the finish when your done. If you want to do more correction you use a pad with more cut. Want to just buff it off a bit you can use a pad with zero cut and just let 151 do all the work. It's really great stuff!
 
If I'm understanding the site description, the D151 reduces the use of a multi-chemical process down to one chemical with the only variable being the pad used?

If I sand with 1500-2000 grit paper will D151 and the orange pad knock out the sanding marks? Then follow up with either the gray or red pad?[/QUOTE

You got to it before I could!

I would say in the environment that you are working, D151 is EXACTLY what you need to get. It is GREAT for production work, will work with a DA and a rotary, AND provides a slightly amount of wax to protect the finish when your done. If you want to do more correction you use a pad with more cut. Want to just buff it off a bit you can use a pad with zero cut and just let 151 do all the work. It's really great stuff!

:iagree:
 
So, when would I need a wool pad? At all? I'm asking because if I don't need it in the truck I will discard it.
 
What is the lowest grit sandpaper you will be using?

A wool pad is used for heavy scratch removal during the initial compounding stage, but you don't always need that much cut. A wool pad is the big gun in scratch removal, but you want to start with the least aggresive product and work down untill you find out what works.(see Mike's Phillips post on doing a test spot.)

To recap: A wool pad is used for heavy scratch removal during the initial compounding stage. Then you would use foam pads and polish to remove the scratches that the woool pad and compound left behind. Then a less agressive pad and product to remove the scratches you just left with that product. But your test spot will determine what you need.

Here is a link http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...ke-phillips/23722-articles-mike-phillips.html . Look up Mikes article on doing a test spot.
I still recommend you get his book. You get a great overview on the whole process and products.

Also a rotery can and usually will leave holograms in the paint (there masked by the polishing oils when you do the work). Once the poliching oils get washed off they will show up. Using a DA to do all the work will solve this (but it is usually a little slower process) or you can use a DA on your last polishing step.

If you chose to try a DA look at the Mequires Microfiber polishing system. I like to use a microfiber cutting pad followed by a foam polishing pad.

Good luck! I hope that helps.
 
or you could move in grit a few more grades to make the compounding a bit easier

+1 for dual action and microfiber system

megs microfiber cutting disc + d300 and when needed d300 + 105

then you could go with a medium cut pad (if you need a tad more cut) + 205
 
The MF system might be perfect for you but I have had times that an MF pad won't clean some really gentle wet sanding. In which case wool was necessary.
 
I am willing to bet that either an orange, pink, or white CCS type (as that's the only one that has pink) Lake Country pad on a DA style polisher will work for pretty much anything you might run across.

I doubt that any vehicle a dealer would buy at auction would be "lightly swirled" but if so.... you could even move to the softer 'green' pad that provides a bit of cut but is a really soft pad. From there the 'blue' pad is actually firmer but has even less cut than the 'green' pad. (Again I'm speaking of CCS pads.)

If you're talking about flat pads then orange, white & blue would be all you would need in your truck.

Now if you happen to run across some crazy bad swirls it wouldn't hurt to have a few yellow pads just to hit those areas. Be careful though because the yellow pads can induce swirls/micromarring of their own. Easily removed with a lighter pad however, but it just means more work. ;)

Keep in mind what size pads you'd use 5½ versus 6½ would be dependent on the machine tasked with spinning them. Knowing that the PC tends to like the smaller pads whilst the GG easily spins them both. :)
 
Guys, I really appreciate all the info. I'm glad I signed up for the forums.

The lowest grit (as in roughest) I would use would be 1500. I try to stick to 2000, but sometimes that doesn't cut enough.

I did by the CCS 7.5" pads. However, this last post confused me a bit. I thought the orange pad was for cutting, then white, then gray. Is this incorrect?

I believe I will go with the Meguier's D151 and see what results I get. If necessary I'll move to the 105 and 205.
 
The type of polishing work you're doing is the kind of work a lot of guys are doing.

The questions you're asking for products and techniques are the same questions other guys in the PDR world are asking as most of them came by our booth after attending all the classes on Thursday. (Education Day).


I shared the Flex 3401 for most of these guys plus cool tools like the Griot's 3" Mini Polisher as a machine wetsander using #3000 and #5000 sanding discs.

Do any sanding, then compound with the Flex and a foam cutting pad. Done and no holograms.


:)
 
Guys, I really appreciate all the info. I'm glad I signed up for the forums.

The lowest grit (as in roughest) I would use would be 1500. I try to stick to 2000, but sometimes that doesn't cut enough.

I did by the CCS 7.5" pads. However, this last post confused me a bit. I thought the orange pad was for cutting, then white, then gray. Is this incorrect? Yes but there is more choices. Check this out for more info.
Autogeek Buffing Pad Comparison Chart

I believe I will go with the Meguier's D151 and see what results I get. If necessary I'll move to the 105 and 205.
Here is a review of D151 and another good thread.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/75517-few-product-reviews.html

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/products-guides/75336-there-aio-cut-pf2500-meg-205-a.html

Let me know how it works out for you.
 
Guys, I really appreciate all the info. I'm glad I signed up for the forums.

The lowest grit (as in roughest) I would use would be 1500. I try to stick to 2000, but sometimes that doesn't cut enough.

I did by the CCS 7.5" pads. However, this last post confused me a bit. I thought the orange pad was for cutting, then white, then gray. Is this incorrect?

I believe I will go with the Meguier's D151 and see what results I get. If necessary I'll move to the 105 and 205.

Yes yellow, orange, pink, and even white (with the right compound) have enough cut to remove 1500 grit sanding marks. (Well yellow of course has more cut and will naturally remove them, but often you'll need to go back with a lighter pad because it leaves it's own haze / micromarring.)

105 will remove them, but you'll have to go back over it with a lighter compound afterwards. As much as I like 105, if I had to use it then not want to go back with a polish and needing a heavy cut, Menzerna 400 would work. Not saying it'll finish out LSP ready all the time but it'll finish better than 105 for SURE! I don't work with it so hopefully someone else will chime in here. I have worked with 1500 and 2000 both of which will remove 2000 grit, likely better. I bet 1000 will remove it, and I actually have some just haven't tried removing sanding marks with it yet.

Regardless, always try with the lightest pad first, if that's not enough then move to more cut. The white pad will remove 1500 grit with a heavy cut compound, short of that pink, then orange and you can move to a lighter cut compound. (This of course is with a DA, meaning a rotary will do more work with a lighter pad.)

I to have the utmost respect for PDR work that you guys do, that is an amazing skill dude!

Back in the early 90's when it hadn't even been heard of here in the states the owner of my wife's company owned a Ford - Lincoln Mercury dealership in Ashville. He ended up with 200+ hail damaged vehicles then bought 140 of them from the insurance company. (Well he let them pay a lesser settlement and kept them.) PDR had started in Australia and was just coming here to the states, it was 91 I think. So he found a company out of state and offered a deal where they could train on over 100 vehicles, indoors, at their own leisure and in return he got a highly discounted rate.

The craft was in its infancy then. Especially compared to these days. He ended up giving them a couple dozen to practice on first, getting most, but not all dents out. Then he really tested them. Only the most expensive units did he want everything done perfect. All were big stuff, F150's, 250's, 350's and loaded Crown Vic's. There was one black Crown Vic with those huge flat, black panels that I couldn't believe they made whole again. It had well over 200 dents, some looked like a baseball bat had been unleashed upon it in anger and the sunroof, front and back glass and left side glass was all busted. But when they finished it, you would have never known.

Two solid weeks the two company guys plus sometimes as many as 4 trainees worked on it. They pulled everything but the carpet and front seats out. I remember being amazed at how they worked it out, I even sat there for a couple of hours one day just watching and learning.

My Dad ended up buying an Escort from the bunch for my little brother, one that didn't have all the dents removed. For $500 they would have repaired it, but he didn't care, neither did my little brother. BOY WHAT AN UGLY COLOR! It was a weird pinkish, purple metallic color.... YUUUUUKKKKK. He drove that puppy for 120,000+ miles probably washing it twice, put tires on it once, maybe changing the oil 3 or 4 times until the motor locked up!
 
The type of polishing work you're doing is the kind of work a lot of guys are doing.

The questions you're asking for products and techniques are the same questions other guys in the PDR world are asking as most of them came by our booth after attending all the classes on Thursday. (Education Day).


I shared the Flex 3401 for most of these guys plus cool tools like the Griot's 3" Mini Polisher as a machine wetsander using #3000 and #5000 sanding discs.

Do any sanding, then compound with the Flex and a foam cutting pad. Done and no holograms.


:)

I was looking at the Flex, but chose the Dewalt because of prior experience with it. I saw your video comparing the PE14-2-150 to the Dewalt. I realize the two Flex models are different, but I honestly didn't think the 3401 would do what I needed. Do you feel I made a mistake going with the Dewalt? I have not received it from ya'll yet so I can arrange an exchange if necessary. If you feel the Dewalt will work, do you feel the setup I have described in my original post will work for my purpose?

I'm assuming you are speaking of the Mobile Tech Expo. I have not been there in years. I hear it's becoming a pretty good show to attend now. I hope it went well for ya'll.
 
I was looking at the Flex, but chose the Dewalt because of prior experience with it.

Nothing wrong with that logic, I grew up using one of the first variable speed rotary buffers on the market my Makita rotary buffer, it's right here by my desk as I type.


I saw your video comparing the PE14-2-150 to the Dewalt. I realize the two Flex models are different, but I honestly didn't think the 3401 would do what I needed.

Do you feel I made a mistake going with the Dewalt?


Here's the deal....

Rotary buffers can and will leave holograms in the paint. Sure you can use one and leave a hologram free finish, heck both Todd and I taught how to do this at this year's Mobile Tech Expo and then I demonstrated it on black paint for three days in a row.

It requires,

  • Great abrasive technology
  • Great pad selection and especially a jewelling pad
  • Working CLEAN above all else, (something left out by anyone that ever talks about this topic)
  • Time (more time than simply changing the action of the tool by using or switching to a dual action polisher)
  • Skill
  • Paint that polishes well. This is something none of has control over and again is never addressed by most that talk on this topic. Paints are different and not all paints polish well.

None of the above really matters if -->you<-- or anyone reading this doesn't care or doesn't NEED to leave a hologram, quality finish. For "Dealership" work usually a hologram, quality finish is the last thing the dealership cares about, they just want cheap.

So for you and what you do, the rotary buffer probably is the right tool.


Also, if you're finishing out at low grits like #1500 and #2000 then YES you will need a rotary buffer because too often factory paint is very hard and it's going to take some brute force to abrade the paint fast enough to remove the sanding marks.


What I shared at Mobil Tech Expo was that IF you finish out at #3000 and #5000 then you CAN get away with a less powerful tool like the Flex 3401 which will remove the sanding marks and NOT leave holograms.

So this way you get speed and good results. But this isn't for everyone in the PDR business. I show it because most guys already know how to do it the way you're doing it so there's nothing new to show.


I also show the Griot's 3" Mini Polisher as a Machine Wetsanding Tool. 3 Inch #3000 and #5000 discs fit on this tools backing plate and make sanding out small defects not only FAST but you can ALWAYS remove machine sanding marks faster than hand sanding marks.

Again... something I demonstrated all week at Mobil Tech Expo.


If you're going to sand with #1500 and #2000 then stick with the DeWALT and get a wool finishing pad and some Wolfgang Uber Compound or Meguiar's M100 Pro Speed Compound. Either of these will quickly remove the sanding marks and polish out really nice. There will still be holograms but you can either mask these with some wax or re-polish using a foam pad with the same tool and a less aggressive product or simply get a Porter Cable 7424XP and some 5.5" orange and white pads and in just a few passes ENSURE there are no holograms.

All this stuff is really simple stuff but it starts with having a few tools, not just one and some quality abrasive technology and a few pads to select from.


Some good info I just posted here with good links to good stuff...


http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/75532-cobwebs.html



I'm assuming you are speaking of the Mobile Tech Expo. I have not been there in years. I hear it's becoming a pretty good show to attend now. I hope it went well for ya'll.

Bigger, better, faster and stronger than ever....


Kind of alike a well-built truck with a BBC


:D
 
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